The DAC scam

[twinkletoes]

Vinyls are nice. 😉

 

[Witterings]

Can You Really Hear the Difference Between DACs? (Explained)

There is a school of thought that all DACs have a unique sound signature that sets them apart from each other. What this means is, the sound produced by every DAC is different. This belief is mostly fueled by audiophiles, most of whom claim that it is possible to tell the difference between DACs...

geekmusician.com

Interesting comment just before the table of contents

To hear this difference, the same amp and headphones must be used with the DACs, with no EQ applied. Unfortunately, most people are not able to make out this difference.

Maybe this is why some people are adamant they can hear a difference and some are adamant they can't.

 

[Jasonovich]

Interesting comment just before the table of contents

To hear this difference, the same amp and headphones must be used with the DACs, with no EQ applied. Unfortunately, most people are not able to make out this difference.

Maybe this is why some people are adamant they can hear a difference and some are adamant they can't.

I suppose if you compare DACs similarly priced there's possibly small tonal differences but when matching off against a more costlier DAC, the differences can be night and day.

In fairness to put it into perspective, it's a small difference compared to the differences amps and speakers make to the system but it's all part of the chain, a little tweak there and a little tweak there all helps towards achieving a balanced system, which compliments your own personal (mental) disposition in terms of how you would like your hifi to sound.

It's never about the perfect measurement and even if you had that, other components of the chain is likely to taint the sound. 🙂

 

[Covenanter]

I'd be willing to bet that in a properly conducted double-blind trial nobody could tell the difference between any properly constructed DACs. 🙂

 

[davidf]

I'd be willing to bet that in a properly conducted double-blind trial nobody could tell the difference between any properly constructed DACs. 🙂

I refer to my previous comment.

 

[SeattleChris]

Thought I'd reiterate my findings from a test comparing the Schiit Bifrost 2 to the Schiit Bifrost 2/64 (newer with different components). Yes, I heard the expected differences and felt it was fairly obvious, but the interesting point is that I couldn't decide which one was better. It seemed the better DAC depended on the recording, so my conculsion was that within a given level of performance there's not too much point in worrying about it. However, I felt both were better than the Modi 3+ which is much cheaper.

 

[Rui]

Can You Really Hear the Difference Between DACs? (Explained)

There is a school of thought that all DACs have a unique sound signature that sets them apart from each other. What this means is, the sound produced by every DAC is different. This belief is mostly fueled by audiophiles, most of whom claim that it is possible to tell the difference between DACs...

geekmusician.com

If it wasn´t like this wouldn´t make any sense in buying one , allthough today when people talk about a dac isn´t the dac itself but a component sold as a dac that evolves a lot more than a simple dac wich isn´t itself that expensive, as a internal one,

that can be assembled in a cd player, i have a late 80´s Pioneer that still works today the only part that desearves improvment it´s his Burr Brown PCM 58 DAC , everything else is built with superior quality compared to new transport or players,

as it´s lenses and laser also reading system is more advanced than what we see now for sale, at the time i was buying my first standart size cd player ,so i made a litle efort to buy a PD-7300 ,

it doesn´t get old or stops working with a very heavy use, the late 90´s Rega cd players look so bad today in comparison, also was released a PD-75 as Pioneer´s top end components known by URUSHI, not ELITE .

As in America it sells not only high-end equipment but a lot of wanted multi-players that are not that good, i remenber a brand ,Audiophile one that people with money would buy,

than trash Pioneer quality but the cd players they were using wasn´t more than a minimum quality pioneer cd player putted in a diferent box , that shows what audiophiles as comunity really are, i myself started to have interest in music players when only 12 years old, i think i´m a muisic enthusiast,

i also remenber that some like me were using their parents old hi-fi system from the 70´s and when cd players ,cheap ones were in the mix some that defend the cd format , was because of their sound in a 70´s receiver or integrated amplifier, that was above any new amplifier or receiver sold in the 80´s, this at afordable prices, today a DAc isn´t a dac only it as equalization given to make it sound smoother, the part that makes all say that it was a great imprvoment at minimum 100€ , DAC component

By the same time Meridian released a very nice working hi-fi system by components with a cd transport separated and dac also common functions both joined side by side would make a standart size cd player that wasn´t above Pioneer, but prices were higher and bought by people with more money as if it was a big improvment to a Pioneer system, who some forget or never heard that was one of the best brands in hi-fi in the 70´s.

that is Audiophiles , as they have money and not interested in music listening but as an old gadjet. As today are smart tv´s , surround system´s also smart-phones ,with high quality sound .

Some here might remenber a science ficton tv series Space 1999 and their comunicating devices , already runned over by today´s technology, or what is available to common people.

Some might disagree with me but we all weren´t born in the same year , some younger man seem to forget that, has i´ve heard some talking but running over 30 years of evolution, sorry if i´m confusing but technical specifications i can´t translate them well to english.

 

[Deliriumbassist]

I agree he doesn't site sources but it's not as crap a video as any subjective DAC review video. And there's plenty of those out there.

Long delay in my response, I know. But anyways - I didn't say what he says is crap - but the video itself is. The way he presents his 'arguments' has no footing, the presentation is faux rage and borderline condescending, and he does nothing to back himself up, just like the subjective DAC review videos you mention. He could do so much better and actually educate rather than come across as dogmatic - but that doesn't get views.

 

[Covenanter]

I refer to my previous comment.

I suspect the differences people claim to hear are in direct proportion to the amount of money they have spent on their DAC. 😉

 

[davidf]

I suspect the differences people claim to hear are in direct proportion to the amount of money they have spent on their DAC. 😉

Well, I can't speak for people who buy things blindly without listening to them beforehand, but I suspect most purchasers of a more expensive DAC likely have auditioned it in their own system before parting other a large sum of money.

 

[Jasonovich]

I suspect the differences people claim to hear are in direct proportion to the amount of money they have spent on their DAC. 😉

Love your take on that!
It would be true, if there were a universal rule that sound quality should be in proportion to the money spent.
We all know other things are thrown into the mix, such as brand mythology and marketing. 😉

 

[Witterings]

I suspect the differences people claim to hear are in direct proportion to the amount of money they have spent on their DAC. 😉

The opposite of this could be those that can't afford to spend more on their DAC are the disbelievers ... what do you reckon 😉

Well, I can't speak for people who buy things blindly without listening to them beforehand, but I suspect most purchasers of a more expensive DAC likely have auditioned it in their own system before parting other a large sum of money.

Have to agree with this, I wouldn't have bought mine unless there was at least a 14 day return period and I wouldn't have kept it if it made no difference as I have lots of other hobbies to spend what's unfortunately becoming, increasingly less spare funds.

 

[Gray]

The opposite of this could be those that can't afford to spend more on their DAC are the disbelievers ... what do you reckon 😉

I think there are plenty (including me) that could afford to pay silly money for a DAC....but have heard what certain ones costing less than £100 are capable of.

 

[Witterings]

I think there are plenty (including me) that could afford to pay silly money for a DAC....but have heard what certain ones costing less than £100 are capable of.

If you could point me to one that's as good as my Chord Qutest for less than £100 please, then I can sell the Qutest and spend the difference on something else.

My Topping E30 nor the DAC in my Arcam SA 30 or in a Wiim Pro Plus came close unfortunately but if you could share your list of ones that do, a lot of people would be very grateful for your advice.

 

[davidf]

I think there are plenty (including me) that could afford to pay silly money for a DAC....but have heard what certain ones costing less than £100 are capable of.

Imagine how good a more expensive, well designed DAC could sound! Always worth having a listen, but I guess some people just don't go into stores any more, they just prefer to buy online because they've got all the info they need from YouTubers and "influencers".

 

[GroeneLeeuw]

Imagine how good a more expensive, well designed DAC could sound! Always worth having a listen, but I guess some people just don't go into stores any more, they just prefer to buy online because they've got all the info they need from YouTubers and "influencers".

In what way are more expensive DAC better, what are the differences?

 

[Al ears]

Imagine how good a more expensive, well designed DAC could sound! Always worth having a listen, but I guess some people just don't go into stores any more, they just prefer to buy online because they've got all the info they need from YouTubers and "influencers".

Unfortunately such is the way of the world. Getting to a dealership to listen to stuff isn't as easy as it once was and with the amount of "information" out there these days its pretty obviously many will take the easy route only to be disappointed ultimately.

 

[Jasonovich]

@podknocker please avert your eyes 🤣, dedicated to all those who find the DAC debate wearisome 🙂

View: https://youtu.be/HuFZHUxGseg?si=2RTuLi5hf2R_1Ck_

 

[Jasonovich]

@podknocker please avert your eyes 🤣, dedicated to all those who find the DAC debate wearisome 🙂

View: https://youtu.be/HuFZHUxGseg?si=2RTuLi5hf2R_1Ck_

Ok I've gone and spoilt it!

Listen to Jay's balanced approach to DACs.
Not alluding to anything, only wish to share. There's always a different perspective.

View: https://youtu.be/QKviJzpq0Hc?si=QEUy3rh4ISHMWFzB

 

[Witterings]

In what way are more expensive DAC better, what are the differences?

The 1st thing I noticed and is one if not the biggest difference is the width of soundstage, initially I actually didn't like it because it was so different to what I was used to and exaggerated that my spekaers are wider apart apart than ideal positioning.

Apart from this, there's more "space" between each note / instrument so everything is clearer and things like a mainly female vocal, you can hear the echo / reverb from the room as though you were there so it's not just the notes themselves but also the ambiance .... the sort of thing that makes the hairs on the back of your neck stand up.

One of the reasons I was trying different things, I listen at very low volume quite a lot when other household members have gone to bed and whilst that'll never get the best out of any system, mine was quite muddy and the greater clarity and speration of notes has helped to clear that up.

I tried playing mutiroom music with 2 WiiM Pros, both using Coax out, one into both my Amp's DAC and a Topping E30, the other into my Chord and the differences were as I've described .... I also used my Pro Plus and it gave the wider soundstage but not the rest of the differences.

I then thought as I was on this journey I'd try a Bluesound Nano, this was a fairly big step up from the WiiM's, it made me realise they have ever such slight distortion in the low to mids which I think was also partially contributing to the lower end muddiness and they're ever so slightly brighter on the top end.

i also found there was a jump in quality using USB out into my DAC but it didn't suit me to move from the WiiM / Amazon Eco system so I thought I'd try a WiiM Ultra so I could compare USB out on both but the Nano just has that edge, mainly in clarity of notes and the clincher / deciding point was playing The Promise by Tracey Chapman and the sound of the guitar, makes it feel like you're right next to it.

Having made the decision of what I was keeping and what was going back I finally sat back and started enjoying the music rather than analysing the sound. Having spent 2 years tinkering with my system I was hearing things I'd never heard before, but more to the point feeling things I'd never felt before ..... I sat there one evening and realised my inner self was involuntarily dancing beacause the effect it was having on me which I hadn't expperienced over the prior 2 years.

I used to think people that used the expression PRAT were numpties but now, whilst it's not a term I chose to use, understand what they're trying to express.

I'm sure part of it imay be the synergy of the whole system but for me it's massively changed my listening experience which now often gives me a sense of euphoria.

 

[Jasonovich]

The 1st thing I noticed and is one if not the biggest difference is the width of soundstage, initially I actually didn't like it because it was so different to what I was used to and exaggerated that my spekaers are wider apart apart than ideal positioning.

Apart from this, there's more "space" between each note / instrument so everything is clearer and things like a mainly female vocal, you can hear the echo / reverb from the room as though you were there so it's not just the notes themselves but also the ambiance .... the sort of thing that makes the hairs on the back of your neck stand up.

One of the reasons I was trying different things, I listen at very low volume quite a lot when other household members have gone to bed and whilst that'll never get the best out of any system, mine was quite muddy and the greater clarity and speration of notes has helped to clear that up.

I tried playing mutiroom music with 2 WiiM Pros, both using Coax out, one into both my Amp's DAC and a Topping E30, the other into my Chord and the differences were as I've described .... I also used my Pro Plus and it gave the wider soundstage but not the rest of the differences.

I then thought as I was on this journey I'd try a Bluesound Nano, this was a fairly big step up from the WiiM's, it made me realise they have ever such slight distortion in the low to mids which I think was also partially contributing to the lower end muddiness and they're ever so slightly brighter on the top end.

i also found there was a jump in quality using USB out into my DAC but it didn't suit me to move from the WiiM / Amazon Eco system so I thought I'd try a WiiM Ultra so I could compare USB out on both but the Nano just has that edge, mainly in clarity of notes and the clincher / deciding point was playing The Promise by Tracey Chapman and the sound of the guitar, makes it feel like you're right next to it.

Having made the decision of what I was keeping and what was going back I finally sat back and started enjoying the music rather than analysing the sound. Having spent 2 years tinkering with my system I was hearing things I'd never heard before, but more to the point feeling things I'd never felt before ..... I sat there one evening and realised my inner self was involuntarily dancing beacause the effect it was having on me which I hadn't expperienced over the prior 2 years.

I used to think people that used the expression PRAT were numpties but now, whilst it's not a term I chose to use, understand what they're trying to express.

I'm sure part of it imay be the synergy of the whole system but for me it's massively changed my listening experience which now often gives me a sense of euphoria.

If you're already enjoying your music, science isn't going to convince you to think otherwise.

Picking up on the point you made about the synergy, I think that is very true. You can't look at the DAC in isolation, other factors such as your amp and speakers will add their own signature to the sound.

 

[Witterings]

Picking up on the point you made about the synergy, I think that is very true. You can't look at the DAC in isolation, other factors such as your amp and speakers will add their own signature to the sound.

I thought it funny, I posted my comment and afterwards watched Jay's video you linked to and in essence it's a lot of what he says.

 

[SeattleChris]

The 1st thing I noticed and is one if not the biggest difference is the width of soundstage, initially I actually didn't like it because it was so different to what I was used to and exaggerated that my spekaers are wider apart apart than ideal positioning.

Apart from this, there's more "space" between each note / instrument so everything is clearer and things like a mainly female vocal, you can hear the echo / reverb from the room as though you were there so it's not just the notes themselves but also the ambiance .... the sort of thing that makes the hairs on the back of your neck stand up.

Well put. A better DAC is somewhat like a good tube effect...soundstage gets wider & deeper, detail comes out and listening becomes a more enveloping, etherial experience. If that statement doesen't resonate with you (pun intended), don't waste money on expensive DACs. No judgement, not everyone is looking for that (my wife thinks I'm nuts).

 

[Jasonovich]

I thought it funny, I posted my comment and afterwards watched Jay's video you linked to and in essence it's a lot of what he says.

Essentially Yes, you're saying pretty much the same thing!

 

[Jasonovich]

Well put. A better DAC is somewhat like a good tube effect...soundstage gets wider & deeper, detail comes out and listening becomes a more enveloping, etherial experience. If that statement doesen't resonate with you (pun intended), don't waste money on expensive DACs. No judgement, not everyone is looking for that (my wife thinks I'm nuts).

My wife knows I'm nuts 🤣