The Apex Club

[ric71]

Hey ellisdj,

bring whatever discs you like mate.

You have to be 100% honest of your likes and dislikes as all criticism re AV is constructive etc.

My wife has already informed me that I am not going to start putting up acoustic treatment in the sitting room :shame:

Anyway looking forward to it as your opinion will be interesting.

Rich

PS: Lexicon,ADA,Anthem,Datasat and Trinnov processors are all about room EQ and these processors cost from £9k to £20k. Lyngdorf also at around £100k to over £250k. Just an observation. He he

 

[ellisdj]

Hey ellisdj,

bring whatever discs you like mate.

You have to be 100% honest of your likes and dislikes as all criticism re AV is constructive etc.

My wife has already informed me that I am not going to start putting up acoustic treatment in the sitting room :shame:

Anyway looking forward to it as your opinion will be interesting.

Rich

PS: Lexicon,ADA,Anthem,Datasat and Trinnov processors are all about room EQ and these processors cost from £9k to £20k. Lyngdorf also at around £100k to over £250k. Just an observation. He he

I know regards to those companies - maybe they have cracked the physics behind it all - we can discuss it tomorrow mate I am sure we will .

Leaving comment - apparently the best sounding processor is the new Bryston - no eq in that

 

[ric71]

Ha ha 1nil to you :clap:

See you tomorrow mate

 

[RickyDeg]

Its a mind set issue here I think - you both believe Audessey or similar to be of benefit to the overall sound - in that its a feature of the amp that improves the sound.

Well obviously it is a feature and may improve perceieved sound yet its not doing that overall. Really Audessey is there to try and piece together the errors in playback caused by the room / speaker placement, listening position etc. Therefore if there was no errors then there would be no need for Audessey at all - which is the best solution.

It's partly a mindset issue to a certain degree, I have no arguments with that. And more or less like you said; the whole idea with Audyssey (and the likes) is for them to do exactly what they claim to do: help compensate for less than ideal situations in non-acoustically treated rooms and/or with non-ideally placed speakers. I would never claim otherwise (nor have I seen those companies claim otherwise either) and I don't mean to suggest that one couldn't acchieve a great sounding solution with a non-EQ system. In a fully ideal situation I'm sure it's possible. However, it's as much about personal preference as anything else, one must never forget that (some might actually prefer a 'loudness' boost, á la Dynamic EQ, as oppose to something that's constantly 'correct' or fully 'transparent'). For those of us who don’t have acoustically treated ”perfect” rooms etc (the majority of us) a calibration/EQ system can be a teriffic way to somewhat compensate for the former.

Back in the day when there were no calibration/EQ systems in receivers/processors (I owned 5 of those in the 90's alone) it was impressive enough because that was the referencepoint. Now I find it very difficult to go back to a non-calibration/EQ system with the Apex in my current living space. That's not to say I haven't given solutions such as those a shot (Primare SPA22 being the latest example). But they have so far given a rather bleak result by comparison. Then again, as you would probably say, it may have more to do with surrounding situations than anything else. And that might be true.

Even though I hope to try acoustic treatments at one point there is no way I would ever fill my livingroom with those things, regardless if they do wonders for the end result or not. Hence as it stands I’m willing to compromise. Can't say it feels as though I'm compromising while I enjoy my system though. When/if I get a dedicated room I may/may not feel different about it. I won’t know until I get a chance to actually try for myself. Thus, Audyssey + Dynamic EQ happens to be my current referencepoint at this time, and until I've experienced anything different in my own home it will likely stay that way. Others may have ARC, MCACC, YPAO or any other system as their referencepoint. Some will have none (you likely being one of them). I don't think one could say that either is 'right' or 'wrong'. It all depends.

 

[v1c]

On the subject of room EQ i've just recently become interested in the value of EQ as i've been using MCACC on my pioneer for a good few years now been perfectly happy wth it. For some reason which i honestly don't really know why i turned MCACC off. Frankly i'm pretty astonished how much better no EQ actually is. I'm in a small living room no room treatment but it's just added extra clarity and dynamic impact at a lower DB level. I'm now thinking that i've just bought into/assumed that the EQ process was better but the rather suprising reality to me is it isn't. So much so that i actually feel like i've brought a new piece of kit that's better than the old one..... but it's the same AMP. The more i look into it the more i find no EQ is the preference option. I also feel it's possibly a mind set kind of deal and that one can quite easily genuinely prefer an EQ'd sound. I asked a question on another thread i posted on EQ which i didn't really get an answer to and that was about the source material ie blu ray sound mix , wouldn't this have been EQ'd in the sound mix process so why would i want to EQ an already EQ'd mix ? Maybe it's not a real question don't know nobody really gave an answer. Another point that did come to light was there was an opinion that sub sat systems don't need EQ but full range systems do. I don't have any answers all i know is i'm now a non EQ convert and EQing ability won't form part of any future buying decision so it has broadend my optons some what

 

[gunny]

The thing about EQ is that it is there to help people who don't have the ideal listening room available.

Maybe you're lucky and have a proper room but lots of people actually have rooms without curtains, hard reflective floors, relfective walls and so on that they can't / won't change.

In that case EQ attempts to compensate for the reflections the room is creating and which is distorting / taking away from the full potential of the amp.

Don't see why a sub sat system wouldn't require EQ but a full range system would when being set up in the same room. The same issues are still present so you use EQ or room treatement to get rid of them.

Also about your question on the blu ray sound mix being eq-ed: every sound track is treated in such a way that if you have the ideal listening environment, it will give you the best sound possible. This has nothing to do with EQ-ing against the "problems" in that room, so no, the 2 are not related and can / do exist next to each other.

 

[v1c]

gunny EQ thread is here the comments regarding smaller speakers and full range are in there..... it's probably not put the way i said it above but the gist is the design and ability's of the speakers.

 

[atkins4725]

Having watched the debate regarding Audyssey, EQ's etc. I've also turned the Audyssey setting to off and find the sound to be more open and more dynamic but to be honest I've not been impressed by my apex speakers to date. I'll probably have another shuffle about with positioning of the speakers and then play a few blu rays with Audyssey on and then off. For the minute I'm seriously considering selling the apex and goin back to B&W.

 

[RickyDeg]

Having watched the debate regarding Audyssey, EQ's etc. I've also turned the Audyssey setting to off and find the sound to be more open and more dynamic but to be honest I've not been impressed by my apex speakers to date. I'll probably have another shuffle about with positioning of the speakers and then play a few blu rays with Audyssey on and then off. For the minute I'm seriously considering selling the apex and goin back to B&W.

Pity if Apex didn't float your boat. Maybe you're simply a B&W guy? Are you sure it's not your current Marantz holding em back? If I'm not mistaken you mentioned something about that earlier on?

Fascinating experience with your Audyssey EQ. As mentioned before I get exactly the opposite result.

 

[atkins4725]

[/quote]

Pity if Apex didn't float your boat. Maybe you're simply a B&W guy? Are you sure it's not your current Marantz holding em back? If I'm not mistaken you mentioned something about that earlier on?

Fascinating experience with your Audyssey EQ. As mentioned before I get exactly the opposite result.

[/quote]

Maybe my ears do just prefer the B&W sound. I've not read a bad review regarding my Marantz. The review it was given from HOME CINEMA CHOICE was very encoraging. I auditioned the CM 8's with my Marantz and sound was anything but held back or restrained. I guess the only way to know for sure is to do to a direct comparison with some films which I'll probably do tomorrow evening.

 

[ellisdj]

Atkins - what don't you like about the Apex and what B&W are you comparing them to?

Also where are they placed - are they on the wall or on dedicated stands?

 

[atkins4725]

Atkins - what don't you like about the Apex and what B&W are you comparing them to?

Also where are they placed - are they on the wall or on dedicated stands?

Hi ellis,

How to explain the sound......

When watching movies the sound is very flat and boring, I don't feel engrossed in the sound. I have had Auddyssey turned off today and to be honest it does sound much better. I'll be watching a film tonight with Audyssey off to see if Auddyssey is the problem.

The centre is directly under my tv on the wall and the L/R channel are also on the wall approximately 6in from the tv. I'm goin to move the L/R channel further apart to see if that helps open up the sound.

any suggestions welcomed.

 

[ellisdj]

Hi Atkins

I am surpised you think that - I doubt many people would think the Apex are boring speakers - if anything they go the other way, must be something wrong somewhere with the setup.

I think because they are small speakers and can be wall mounted - dont be fooled into thinking you can place them anywhere, different to normal speakers and expect them to sound great. The standard rules apply

You want them the same distance apart as you sit away from them - isoceles triangle. I would toe them in so that they are pointing at you so that they would both meet/ cross just behind where you sit / your head

You want them the same height they would be on their dedicated stands, which will put the tweeter at ear height or just above - that is best and Ideally the centre should be the same height as well and poiting at you on its bracket.

How does that compare to how you have it now?

 

[RickyDeg]

> Atkins, I feel that ellisdj is giving you very good advice above.

Even though in my own livingspace I have far from the 'ideal' speaker placements and/or acoustic conditions I've been lucky to acchieve very thrilling results from Apex. One that all my friends have favorably commented on. As it stands I attribute much of that to Denon and Audyssey (as declared earlier). I believe it can only get better (by upgrade of electronics and possible acoustic treatments). Apex do however 'deserve' really great care in set-up and what drives them in order for them to bloom in the first place. Still, you might simply just love B&W in your current situation because they 'work', and perhaps they've become your point of reference, which would not be a strange thing at all.

My advice would be two fold - 1) try experiment as much as is reasonable with your room and speaker placements etc and then all the settings in your Marantz/Audyssey to go along with that (which you may already have done?) 2) if possible, test/loan another receiver solution that interests you just to see if you can steer this in a different direction. You did in fact mention a concern of the Marantz as a "weaker link" in earlier posts. If this won't work going back to B&W wouldn't be a bad thing, would it?

 

[atkins4725]

Hi Atkins

I am surpised you think that - I doubt many people would think the Apex are boring speakers - if anything they go the other way, must be something wrong somewhere with the setup.

I think because they are small speakers and can be wall mounted - dont be fooled into thinking you can place them anywhere, different to normal speakers and expect them to sound great. The standard rules apply

You want them the same distance apart as you sit away from them - isoceles triangle. I would toe them in so that they are pointing at you so that they would both meet/ cross just behind where you sit / your head

You want them the same height they would be on their dedicated stands, which will put the tweeter at ear height or just above - that is best and Ideally the centre should be the same height as well and poiting at you on its bracket.

How does that compare to how you have it now?

Evening Ellis,

I've moved the L&R channels down a few inches so they now sit inline with the A40, at ear height. I've alo moved them out to form a 10ft equilateral triangle. The sound is much much better, more spread out and tons of detail which i previoulsy never heard. It's the complete opposite to how i described it in earlier posts, very exciting, thrilling and engulfing. I just watched a blu ray with Audyssey set to off and Dynamic EQ also turned off due to not having chance to re-run Audyssey which I'll possibly run tomorrow out of pure curiosity.

 

[ellisdj]

Hi Atkins

I am surpised you think that - I doubt many people would think the Apex are boring speakers - if anything they go the other way, must be something wrong somewhere with the setup.

I think because they are small speakers and can be wall mounted - dont be fooled into thinking you can place them anywhere, different to normal speakers and expect them to sound great. The standard rules apply

You want them the same distance apart as you sit away from them - isoceles triangle. I would toe them in so that they are pointing at you so that they would both meet/ cross just behind where you sit / your head

You want them the same height they would be on their dedicated stands, which will put the tweeter at ear height or just above - that is best and Ideally the centre should be the same height as well and poiting at you on its bracket.

How does that compare to how you have it now?

Evening Ellis,

I've moved the L&R channels down a few inches so they now sit inline with the A40, at ear height. I've alo moved them out to form a 10ft equilateral triangle. The sound is much much better, more spread out and tons of detail which i previoulsy never heard. It's the complete opposite to how i described it in earlier posts, very exciting, thrilling and engulfing. I just watched a blu ray with Audyssey set to off and Dynamic EQ also turned off due to not having chance to re-run Audyssey which I'll possibly run tomorrow out of pure curiosity.

Hi Atkins

Your very welcome matey - glad that's helped you get more out of your system.

When you run Audessey again try it without Dynamic EQ on. While RicDeg loves it I feel a lot of others will prefer it off - one of those settings. Especially if you prefer Audessey off all together.

one benefit of using Audessey is that it will put some eq on your sub which is a good thing. Don't know how much freedom you have with the receiver but if you can maybe try adjusting the eq for your speakers so that there is none I.e reducing all the filters to 0ATT but leaving the sub as is. If that is possible might be on to the winner

 

[ric71]

Guys,

It has been a pleasure owning the Apex and posting on this thread,but the time has come to part with my Apex. :boohoo:

They are now for sale in the classified section of AVForums.

I will still be watching/posting on this thread as I need to see what RickyDeg finally replaces his Denon with.

Gosalh thank you for starting this.

MK here I come :wave:

 

[RickyDeg]

Guys,

It has been a pleasure owning the Apex and posting on this thread,but the time has come to part with my Apex. :boohoo:

They are now for sale in the classified section of AVForums.

I will still be watching/posting on this thread as I need to see what RickyDeg finally replaces his Denon with.

Gosalh thank you for starting this.

MK here I come :wave:

Ah, damn! I knew the time would come! :O hahaha

Congrats on your up-coming new speakers! Which M&K system have you picked?

I've heard really favorable things about M&K. For movies, in particular.

Glad you'll stick around though to see my next upgrade. Might happen in the coming months.

I'll see you around. ENJOY!!!

 

[ric71]

Hey Ricky. Yes I will be sticking around to see what you do.

Im going for 3 x MK S150 MK2's across the front.

I won't run any rears for a while as will have to save for the MK SS150 surrounds. May get a second hand cheap pair of MK's to stand in,then use them as heights in the future.

I can't praise the Apex enough but I know I can get more from my Statement A5 amp. The new MK2's are very good with music too.

 

[ric71]

Guys if anyone is interested in my piano gloss white Apex in mint condition please let me know. 4 x A10 and 1 x A40.

 

[gunny]

Man, if you were closer by I'd probably take a couple of those of your hands,

but I'm in Belgium so shipping might get a bit expensive...

 

[ric71]

It might not be that bad. But selling as a set only I'm afraid.

Apex have gone up in price £300 per A10 and £500 per A40

 

[gunny]

Ah, didn't stop to think that you'd sell them as a set.

Prices in Belgium are still at the same level as they have always been: 350€ for the A10 and 550€ for the A40 (so 299£ and 469£).

Good luck with the sale; I'm sure you'll get them a nice new home soon!

 

[ric71]

Thanks gunny.

Well they have gone and I can safely say these are def going to a good home. I told the new owner to visit this very forum/thread.

When I have my MK S15O's up and running I will report back with differences I find.

 

[RickyDeg]

Thanks gunny.

Well they have gone and I can safely say these are def going to a good home. I told the new owner to visit this very forum/thread.

When I have my MK S15O's up and running I will report back with differences I find.

I for one am looking forward to reading that report (with mixed feelings of course, hehe). Can we expect to see you start an MK Club thread pretty soon? hehe

BTW, are you keeping your current subwoofer or switching to a matching MK?