Testing SB Touch!!

[Anonymous]

Hum so not that reliable afterall...thanks for the update! I've copied my FLAC collection to external drive, havent gotten around to trying yet. May be I wont bother...who knows :roll:

 

[acalex]

Ok, finally managed to try the SBT --> ampli vs SBT --> coax --> rDAC --> ampli and I must say I do not hear any difference. It was a short listening, I might need more time (and music) to come up with a definitive answer but as a first impression is that there is no sensible difference (or maybe my system is not revealing enough).

I might try to compare real time SBT --> ampli vs PC --> usb --> rDAC --> ampli...

 

[Ambrose]

Interesting, maybe that RDAC not a big enough step up from SBT Dac to notice difference.

If you do the toolbox mods and like them, it might be worth trying again after that to see if any noticable difference.

Ambrose

 

[paradiziac]

I might need more time (and music) to come up with a definitive answer but as a first impression is that there is no sensible difference (or maybe my system is not revealing enough).

I'm sure your system is revealing enough if the changes are signficant enough to really care about.

Having tried a few budget DACs and not noticed massive differences, I recently hooked up a better DAC. Even in my second system with cheap 20+ year old budget speakers and an old budget/mid range amp, the difference is so big you'd be deaf not to hear it!

 

[acalex]

I might need more time (and music) to come up with a definitive answer but as a first impression is that there is no sensible difference (or maybe my system is not revealing enough).

I'm sure your system is revealing enough if the changes are signficant enough to really care about.

Having tried a few budget DACs and not noticed massive differences, I recently hooked up a better DAC. Even in my second system with cheap 20+ year old budget speakers and an old budget/mid range amp, the difference is so big you'd be deaf not to hear it!

Better...by how much? What you consider a better DAC worth spending money on to upgrade the rDAC and start getting a sensible difference? I was planning to try the Audiolab M-DAC, do you think it would be a good step up? Any other suggestion on more exotic DAC (with phono input) worth trying?

 

[acalex]

Interesting, maybe that RDAC not a big enough step up from SBT Dac to notice difference.

If you do the toolbox mods and like them, it might be worth trying again after that to see if any noticable difference.

Ambrose

i might do the tirck this weekend. Quick question...if I disable the wlan on the SBT, the Squeezebox controller won't work anymore ? Or it connects directly to the wi-fi network and not directly to the SBT itself?

 

[paradiziac]

Better...by how much? What you consider a better DAC worth spending money on to upgrade the rDAC and start getting a sensible difference? I was planning to try the Audiolab M-DAC, do you think it would be a good step up? Any other suggestion on more exotic DAC (with phono input) worth trying?

The "better" DAC that's really opened my mind is a Sugden. It was a very expensive DAC in the 1990's (1200+ pounds?). Used price today is about the same price as the rDac new--if you're lucky enough to find one (I'm not selling mine, ever!)!. It's 16/44 only and no USB or optical inputs.

I haven't heard the M-DAC, but other user impressions and reviews are good. I guess it's technically excellent. My main concern would be if it's truely "musical" but that's subjective...and perhaps it is musical anyway.

Not sure what other DAC I'd suggest, maybe listen to some good CD players (1000 pounds +) in dealers shops and compare them to the rDac/M-DAC when you audition the amps. That way, you have some idea about how much difference a good source can make to a system. There are some who believe that all DACs (and thus all CD players) basically sound the same.

Once you've heard, you'll have a better idea of what it would be worth spending (or not) on the source.

 

[Ambrose]

The remote that comes with the SBT has an option in the toolbox the disable IR so that it won't work as far as I understand. I don't use remote however. This option is seperate from disabling WLAN.

If WLAN mod is disabled (as I have it) then you can connect to your SBT via PC wirelessly. When I enabled WLAN mod (IE to turn off WLAN) then you need to connect via ethernet to SBT.

I am not sure what the seperate controller you purchased is or how this works if by IR or to your PC/NAS wirelessly.

Suggest starting with the WLAN version of download and test your controller before turning off IR. If no good then turn on IR with command "tt -ir".

"tt -s" will show you what is turned on/off.

Note there is a you tube walkthrough for mods which I recommend as well as reading instructions a few times.

I have some instuctions in Microsoft Word if interested.

Good Luck

Ambrose

 

[acalex]

Better...by how much? What you consider a better DAC worth spending money on to upgrade the rDAC and start getting a sensible difference? I was planning to try the Audiolab M-DAC, do you think it would be a good step up? Any other suggestion on more exotic DAC (with phono input) worth trying?

The "better" DAC that's really opened my mind is a Sugden. It was a very expensive DAC in the 1990's (1200+ pounds?). Used price today is about the same price as the rDac new--if you're lucky enough to find one (I'm not selling mine, ever!)!. It's 16/44 only and no USB or optical inputs.

I haven't heard the M-DAC, but other user impressions and reviews are good. I guess it's technically excellent. My main concern would be if it's truely "musical" but that's subjective...and perhaps it is musical anyway.

Not sure what other DAC I'd suggest, maybe listen to some good CD players (1000 pounds +) in dealers shops and compare them to the rDac/M-DAC when you audition the amps. That way, you have some idea about how much difference a good source can make to a system. There are some who believe that all DACs (and thus all CD players) basically sound the same.

Once you've heard, you'll have a better idea of what it would be worth spending (or not) on the source.

That's my concern as well, if I go for the Musical Fidelity AMS35i do you think a MF DAC would make sense and would be a good step up from the SBT DAC? I would be keen to consider the M2Tech Young also but unfortunately do not have a phono input which is soemthing I am looking for also! Just out of curiosity, what Sugden DAC do you have?

 

[paradiziac]

That's my concern as well, if I go for the Musical Fidelity AMS35i do you think a MF DAC would make sense and would be a good step up from the SBT DAC? I would be keen to consider the M2Tech Young also but unfortunately do not have a phono input which is soemthing I am looking for also! Just out of curiosity, what Sugden DAC do you have?

I was thinking that the matching MF CD/DAC must surely be worth a listen even if just for education, but I just checked the price--it's crazy expensive--you can buy a new car for that money! So it might be a step up, but I'm not sure about it making sense! I would guess that 600-2000 GBP is going to buy you a big upgrade from a budget DAC and any more than that is probably wasted money--trophy hi-fi.

DACs make only subtle differences, but IMHO, these small differences can be responsible for creating the "illusion" of a real performance. For example, if the tone/timbre of a voice is accurate enough, the ear can believe it's really human. If a drum beats in a dynamic way, it sounds like a real drum beating. So these quite small differences translate to a big difference, the musical "illusion" sounds real. Listening to music through a poor source is like watching a film with bad actors or a bad script--suspension of disbelief isn't quite possible. If an actor says one bad line, the whole film can fall apart.

And it doesn't matter how good your speakers are, better speakers just reveal the deficiencies of what's downstream. That's probably why some expensive systems sound worse than cheaper ones. Even quite cheap speakers will make a nice sound if supplied with a good source and amp.

One important thing to consider if you get the M-DAC, it has a (reputedly very good) built in digital preamp and remote volume control, so you may only need a power amp rather than an integrated amp. (Or straight into active speakers, there are lots of fans of that arrangement on here!)

FYI, on other forums here in the UK, some folks who owned both are preferring the M-DAC to the Young. And you'll be glad to hear that the M-DAC designers are developing a powersupply upgrade and Squeezebox interface!

The DAC I have is the Au 51. Hard to find any info about it on the web, but the model I have is described here on P.13 (in French--OK for you?!)

http://www.imaginhome.com/download/dossier_presse/Ampli_classe%20A_SUGDEN.pdf

This old DAC has a really good and rare old chip, the TDA1541A (in the S1 version which is even better and rarer--there are even faked Chinese versions of these chips on the market!). All the old DAC chips were "multibit" designs. These chips were mostly replaced by "delta sigma" dac chips because of manufacturing convenience. These delta sigma dacs can integrate many convenient functions like upsampling or volume control on the chip itself. It's equivalent to a computer with integrated graphics/sound--likely the chip designers were thinking more of "features" than of pure sound quality. Yet the real "purist" companies (sorry I don't count MF here, philosophically they are mass market/profit driven) still swear by the old chips. Even Naim in their CD players used the TDA and then, when these became in short supply, PCM 1704UK, which is itself quite rare/expensive. You can still see this chip in new(ish) Eastern exotic/enthusiast DACs like the Lite DAC 83.

So...the new kid on the block is the 32 bit ESS Sabre chip as used in the M-DAC. Technically far superior to the old chips, but it remains to be seen if the musicality of this chip matches/beats the older ones. I'm not so sure. Some reports have been good. It's probably too soon to say...the skill of the designer to find the best implementation for the power supply/output stages is still important.

In oversimplified terms, multi bit DAC chips are to delta sigma chips what valves/pure class A are to (other) solid state. Less/more pleasant distortion and a kind of fluidity.

It remains to be seen if the new generation of DAC chips are creating a paradigm shift.

So....there's the background info and some thoughts, but then you have to listen and tell us what you hear!

 

[acalex]

That's my concern as well, if I go for the Musical Fidelity AMS35i do you think a MF DAC would make sense and would be a good step up from the SBT DAC? I would be keen to consider the M2Tech Young also but unfortunately do not have a phono input which is soemthing I am looking for also! Just out of curiosity, what Sugden DAC do you have?

I was thinking that the matching MF CD/DAC must surely be worth a listen even if just for education, but I just checked the price--it's crazy expensive--you can buy a new car for that money! So it might be a step up, but I'm not sure about it making sense! I would guess that 600-2000 GBP is going to buy you a big upgrade from a budget DAC and any more than that is probably wasted money--trophy hi-fi.

DACs make only subtle differences, but IMHO, these small differences can be responsible for creating the "illusion" of a real performance. For example, if the tone/timbre of a voice is accurate enough, the ear can believe it's really human. If a drum beats in a dynamic way, it sounds like a real drum beating. So these quite small differences translate to a big difference, the musical "illusion" sounds real. Listening to music through a poor source is like watching a film with bad actors or a bad script--suspension of disbelief isn't quite possible. If an actor says one bad line, the whole film can fall apart.

And it doesn't matter how good your speakers are, better speakers just reveal the deficiencies of what's downstream. That's probably why some expensive systems sound worse than cheaper ones. Even quite cheap speakers will make a nice sound if supplied with a good source and amp.

One important thing to consider if you get the M-DAC, it has a (reputedly very good) built in digital preamp and remote volume control, so you may only need a power amp rather than an integrated amp. (Or straight into active speakers, there are lots of fans of that arrangement on here!)

FYI, on other forums here in the UK, some folks who owned both are preferring the M-DAC to the Young. And you'll be glad to hear that the M-DAC designers are developing a powersupply upgrade and Squeezebox interface!

The DAC I have is the Au 51. Hard to find any info about it on the web, but the model I have is described here on P.13 (in French--OK for you?!)

http://www.imaginhome.com/download/dossier_presse/Ampli_classe%20A_SUGDEN.pdf

This old DAC has a really good and rare old chip, the TDA1541A (in the S1 version which is even better and rarer--there are even faked Chinese versions of these chips on the market!). All the old DAC chips were "multibit" designs. These chips were mostly replaced by "delta sigma" dac chips because of manufacturing convenience. These delta sigma dacs can integrate many convenient functions like upsampling or volume control on the chip itself. It's equivalent to a computer with integrated graphics/sound--likely the chip designers were thinking more of "features" than of pure sound quality. Yet the real "purist" companies (sorry I don't count MF here, philosophically they are mass market/profit driven) still swear by the old chips. Even Naim in their CD players used the TDA and then, when these became in short supply, PCM 1704UK, which is itself quite rare/expensive. You can still see this chip in new(ish) Eastern exotic/enthusiast DACs like the Lite DAC 83.

So...the new kid on the block is the 32 bit ESS Sabre chip as used in the M-DAC. Technically far superior to the old chips, but it remains to be seen if the musicality of this chip matches/beats the older ones. I'm not so sure. Some reports have been good. It's probably too soon to say...the skill of the designer to find the best implementation for the power supply/output stages is still important.

In oversimplified terms, multi bit DAC chips are to delta sigma chips what valves/pure class A are to (other) solid state. Less/more pleasant distortion and a kind of fluidity.

It remains to be seen if the new generation of DAC chips are creating a paradigm shift.

So....there's the background info and some thoughts, but then you have to listen and tell us what you hear!

Well, thanks a lot for all these info, really helpful! Yes, I am glad that M-DAC is becoming more Squeezebox friendly! For now I decided I will stick with SBT as a source, I still want to have a good DAC in between for further upgrading.
But now you put something else in my mind...maybe M-DAC + power amp?!? :bounce:

I will plunge into the tube world this weekend as I am taking my gear and going to try some valves amps...I will try some Sonus Faber speakers as well...just to have fun :rockout:

Unfortunately have to wait to listen to the MF AMS35i...and can't find any Sugden Masterclass around here...

 

[paradiziac]

I will plunge into the tube world this weekend as I am taking my gear and going to try some valves amps...I will try some Sonus Faber speakers as well...just to have fun :rockout:

Unfortunately have to wait to listen to the MF AMS35i...and can't find any Sugden Masterclass around here...

Good decisions...have fun!

I think the M-DAC has to be a "must listen". I'm sure it's a big step up from the rDac and unlike many of the 'multi-bit' DACs, it's widely available (or will be soon)!

 

[acalex]

I will plunge into the tube world this weekend as I am taking my gear and going to try some valves amps...I will try some Sonus Faber speakers as well...just to have fun :rockout:

Unfortunately have to wait to listen to the MF AMS35i...and can't find any Sugden Masterclass around here...

Good decisions...have fun!

I think the M-DAC has to be a "must listen". I'm sure it's a big step up from the rDac and unlike many of the 'multi-bit' DACs, it's widely available (or will be soon)!

Yes, especially because it opens up to many future updates. As you said I might decide to take a power amp with it and down the road upgrading with a better pre-amp...or just selling everything and buying some actives...or still use an integrated. I think in terms of flexibility is the product which actually makes the most sense for me. I want to make sure SQ is good as well and that is a decisive step-up from the rDAC.

 

[CnoEvil]

I will plunge into the tube world this weekend as I am taking my gear and going to try some valves amps...I will try some Sonus Faber speakers as well...just to have fun :rockout:

Unfortunately have to wait to listen to the MF AMS35i...and can't find any Sugden Masterclass around here...

Good decisions...have fun!

I think the M-DAC has to be a "must listen". I'm sure it's a big step up from the rDac and unlike many of the 'multi-bit' DACs, it's widely available (or will be soon)!

Yes, especially because it opens up to many future updates. As you said I might decide to take a power amp with it and down the road upgrading with a better pre-amp...or just selling everything and buying some actives...or still use an integrated. I think in terms of flexibility is the product which actually makes the most sense for me. I want to make sure SQ is good as well and that is a decisive step-up from the rDAC.

....also try to get a listen to a Linn Sneaky, which imo is the digital source to beat at under £1k....and should sound great with the AMS35i.

 

[acalex]

[/quote]

....also try to get a listen to a Linn Sneaky, which imo is the digital source to beat at under £1k....and should sound great with the AMS35i.[/quote]

Yes...to try the Sneaky in a proper system...as I already tried the Sneaky and wasn't that impressed...but as you know it was with Linn amplification + Kef speakers...

 

[paradiziac]

Yes, especially because it opens up to many future updates. As you said I might decide to take a power amp with it and down the road upgrading with a better pre-amp.

The pre-amp is not actually amplifying, it's reducing the gain i.e. a volume control. It's efficient to do this digitally because of the 32bit DAC chip--you can afford to "lose some bits", you only really need 16 bits. So that's why you maybe don't really need a pre-amp these days--unless the preamp provides a certain flavour that you enjoy.

You could also do digital volume control on a computer. In this case you could be using some very advanced 64 bit processing...just inconvenient when you want to turn the volume up/down when the phone rings...

Interesting times...lots of new technology bringing great sound at lower costs, and everyone wants it--so equally there are bargains on great used unfashionable "classic" hifi.

 

[acalex]

Just a simple question still on SBT, is there any easy way I can take the SBT around as a source? I mean if a delaer does not have any NAS or wi-fi network to connect it with...I might read directly from USB stick (even if I heard is not the best thing to do with SBT as it is not reliable)...or any other suggestion?
Otherwise I need to take my laptop + rDAC...but to be honest I would like to try it directly with the SB Touch!

 

[Crocodile]

You should be able to copy a few (& I mean ONLY a few) albums to a USB stick or SD card for the purpose of a dem. Make sure what you choose is properly tagged & doesn't have any large artwork attached/embedded. Finally make sure that there is ONLY music on the media. No pics, no videos, no docs or anything else. Then thoroughly test the setup well in advance of the dem, including completely removing power to the Touch & ensuring it rescans the media smoothly on power up.

 

[acalex]

You should be able to copy a few (& I mean ONLY a few) albums to a USB stick or SD card for the purpose of a dem. Make sure what you choose is properly tagged & doesn't have any large artwork attached/embedded. Finally make sure that there is ONLY music on the media. No pics, no videos, no docs or anything else. Then thoroughly test the setup well in advance of the dem, including completely removing power to the Touch & ensuring it rescans the media smoothly on power up.

I will try this, thanks a lot for the suggestion! I just put directly music files like I am doing a mixed cd then. No artwork, perfect!
Thanks again

 

[Gusboll]

Nah, it's all gone a bit haywire; gone back to plugging the external HD into the PC.

Decided to have another experiment. Before, when I had the external drive connected directly to the SBT I had the 'Random Mix' (shuffle) feature on when it all started going wrong, however over the weekend I've just been playing specifically chosen tunes and albums and have had no problem at all but will report back after a few more days. Still sounding great though!

Currently listening to: Stereolab - Margerine Eclipse