Testing equipment in store

[Roomy]

Hi,

I'm new to this forum. I'm glad I can reach out to people who know a lot about Hifi... because I know so little 🙂

My first question is :

Do you know videos on Youtube or alike, with outstanding audio quality of individual music instruments? I find it difficult to evaluate equipment when walking into a store, and I thought maybe if I hear the bass alone, or vocals alone, I'd find it easier to tell if it sounds like a real live performance.

Any advice on how to test sound systems in stores?

Thanks,

Roomy

 

[nopiano]

Welcome to the forum!

I would strongly suggest getting along to some live music events. That might be a solo singer with guitar in the local pub. Or a rock band in a stadium. An orchestra in a concert hall. A choir at a church. Or a jazz combo in a club.

You get the idea?

Then when you listen to a Hifi system you’ll be more familiar with what real music sounds like. You’ll never get that same experience at home, but you’ll learn what compromises you’re happy to make in your choices.

 

[Friesiansam]

Whatever you do, your home system will never sound the same as a live performance. You need to find what sounds pleasing to your ears, in your home.

 

[Gray]

Depending on the live PA system / operator, your hi-fi could well sound less distorted 👍

But the first time you hear proper live instruments, especially a full orchestra.....you might not want to bother trying to replicate the effortless scale - you've got no chance.

In terms of accuracy, it's not for nothing that they say that if it can't do spoken voice accurately, than it can never do music properly.

If you were to take a good recording of a voice you know well, such as a family member (not your own voice)....you'd soon pickup on any tonal inaccuracies.
A good alternative is speech from a radio 4 studio programme.
Some speakers sound nasal or chesty with voices. Think what that does to music...and of course, vocals themselves.

 

[plastic penguin]

Hi,

I'm new to this forum. I'm glad I can reach out to people who know a lot about Hifi... because I know so little 🙂

My first question is :

Do you know videos on Youtube or alike, with outstanding audio quality of individual music instruments? I find it difficult to evaluate equipment when walking into a store, and I thought maybe if I hear the bass alone, or vocals alone, I'd find it easier to tell if it sounds like a real live performance.

Any advice on how to test sound systems in stores?

Thanks,

Roomy

Echoing the other posters. Really need to hear a set-up in a dedicated demo room, or better still, a home demo.

Going by videos from whatever platform is so misleading.

Firstly, you need to find a price scale you're happy with, a realistic budget.

Secondly, work out what presentation you're looking at, for example: warm, neutral or bright.

Find yourself a local dealer with your max budget and sound that pleases your ears.

There's more advice we can give if you're buying or if it's a general question on the validity of online videos, then no they have little or no help on actual sound.

 

[Roomy]

Indeed, the reason behind my question is to buy a good sound system. I get the point that playing online videos in the store is not a good strategy. How about a physical CD? I'd just need to find a piece of music that has a bass solo, for instance.
Alternatively, if I understand what Gray said correctly, I could record my own audio sample. I own a Rode NT1-A microphone, so I could easily record a family member's voice.

If it's not too complicated to explain, I'm also curious why online videos are of little or no help. Is it because of bad streaming bitrate or something related?

Oh, and just to be clarify: I don't actually seek a system that will sound the same as a live performance. English is not my mother tongue, so I tried to explain myself in a simplified way.

Anyway, thanks for your input so far!

 

[Stuart.W.D]

I play the guitar and 90% of my music listening tastes are acoustic 🎸. I like pieces with piano notes, which is difficult to replicate with many speakers or headphones. So this was an important part of my buying process. The perks for my ears, they are well trained with various musical instruments coming from a family who played many musical instruments!

I attend many music concerts every year, and from a live performance perspective, I feel like my speakers and headphones are doing an amazing job of reproducing a live performance. Personally, I think that subwoofers can be overwhelming during concerts, for example, at a smaller concert like the three arena. To me it is chest shaking bass that is dominating the overall sound sometimes. My point is that I can feel the bass vibrations in my chest, I personally dislike this.

My headphones can't make strong bass, but they do recreate a front-row experience with voices and musical instruments. Which I like most about my music. My headphones are the latest Sennheiser HD 600 model.

My speakers are the original Ls50's In my opinion, the KEF Ls50 is a very honest speaker with a distinctive midrange sound which helps the voices and instruments sound real, and the high frequencies sound like they were intentionally tilted to add air and expansion. I believe this is where the love hate relationship comes with KEF either you love or hate the treble response! The LS50's highs are not pushed far enough to make it sound unpleasant or bright to my ears. The LS50s have a huge soundstage with recordings the speakers literally disappear into the room. Razor-sharp imaging, all this contributes to reproducing the taste of the music I love to the very highest standards.

My long winded point, neither my speakers or headphones can duplicate the bass response from a live concert. But that's why I love my HiFi Kit I don't like strong bass. I like a detailed but tight bass response. HiFi is subjective and all will depend on your personal preferences.

I wish you well on your HiFi journey and keep in mind, no technology is perfect. Watch out for that rabbit hole. 🕳️🐇

 

[nopiano]

If it's not too complicated to explain, I'm also curious why online videos are of little or no help. Is it because of bad streaming bitrate or something related?

It’s because they are typically recordings of speakers in an unfamiliar room. If you listen to that video on speakers, then you’re adding your speaker colourations and room effects. If you listen on headphones, then you’re not listening to speakers! Never mind that you’ve no idea of the microphone quality, or recording accuracy.

It’s mildly entertaining if you’re bored for a few hours, but no way to assess equipment. It’s a bit like choosing wallpaper over the telephone!
“Well, it’s a greeny-blue, with swirls of brown”.
“Ok, I’ll buy seven rolls”

 

[GSV Ethics Gradient]

I think a variety of things to listen to is more important than any single type or genre. A good system (for you) will be one that deals with everything you might throw at it with aplomb. So things you will be listening to regularly are essential.

 

[nopiano]

I'd just need to find a piece of music that has a bass solo, for instance.

The very famous ‘Walk on the Wild Side’ by Lou Reed is a popular choice. Something less obvious, perhaps, the first track on the album Nightfall called ‘A Thousand Kisses Deep’ by trumpeter Till Bronner with Dieter Ilg on bass.

 

[Gray]

I could record my own audio sample. I own a Rode NT1-A microphone, so I could easily record a family member's voice.

You could do that 👍

Other test CDs are available, but you would do well to find a copy of a CD called 'Sound Check' by Alan Parsons and Stephen Court.
It contains 18 tracks of uncompressed, high quality recordings of individual instruments (including bass guitar, track 67) as well as the all-important spoken word and music tracks.

Don't forget that any favourite CDs of your own will be good for testing with.

 

[Deleted member 201267]

Indeed, the reason behind my question is to buy a good sound system. I get the point that playing online videos in the store is not a good strategy. How about a physical CD? I'd just need to find a piece of music that has a bass solo, for instance.
Alternatively, if I understand what Gray said correctly, I could record my own audio sample. I own a Rode NT1-A microphone, so I could easily record a family member's voice.

If it's not too complicated to explain, I'm also curious why online videos are of little or no help. Is it because of bad streaming bitrate or something related?

Oh, and just to be clarify: I don't actually seek a system that will sound the same as a live performance. English is not my mother tongue, so I tried to explain myself in a simplified way.

Anyway, thanks for your input so far!

"How about a physical CD? I'd just need to find a piece of music that has a bass solo, for instance".

Squarepusher - Solo Electric Bass 1.

 

[GSV Ethics Gradient]

‘A Thousand Kisses Deep’ by trumpeter Till Bronner with Dieter Ilg on bass.

Leonard Cohen cover, I would imagine.

 

[nopiano]

Leonard Cohen cover, I would imagine.

Exactly that! A great album.

 

[Roomy]

I bought Lou Reed's CD, and went to the store to test it, but I came out more confused than before.

I had learned that a receiver should have more watts than the speakers to avoid damaging them (Youtuber Chris Majestic youtube.com/watch?v=Z81QCVNyA-M). Today, the salesman told me it was the opposite, that I could damage the speakers by using a more powerful receiver (e.g. a 100-watt receiver with volume setting turned to its maximum would damage a pair of 70-watt speakers).

The speakers I'm considering buying are the Paradigm Monitor SE Atom (50 watts), with the either one of these receivers :
- The Sony STR-DH590 (90 watts per channel into 6 ohms at 0.09% THD, with 2 channel driven) (how many watts with 8 ohm speakers??)
- The Onkyo TX-SR393 (80 W/Ch into 8 Ohms, 0.08% THD, 2 Channels Driven )
I'd also add a 8-inch or a 10-inch subwoofer.

Would that be okay?

 

[WayneKerr]

I bought Lou Reed's CD, and went to the store to test it, but I came out more confused than before.

I had learned that a receiver should have more watts than the speakers to avoid damaging them (Youtuber Chris Majestic youtube.com/watch?v=Z81QCVNyA-M). Today, the salesman told me it was the opposite, that I could damage the speakers by using a more powerful receiver (e.g. a 100-watt receiver with volume setting turned to its maximum would damage a pair of 70-watt speakers).

The speakers I'm considering buying are the Paradigm Monitor SE Atom (50 watts), with the either one of these receivers :
- The Sony STR-DH590 (90 watts per channel into 6 ohms at 0.09% THD, with 2 channel driven) (how many watts with 8 ohm speakers??)
- The Onkyo TX-SR393 (80 W/Ch into 8 Ohms, 0.08% THD, 2 Channels Driven )
I'd also add a 8-inch or a 10-inch subwoofer.

Would that be okay?

Chris Majestic and the salesman are both correct, speakers can be damaged either way if driven to extremes. The secret is don't push them to night-club levels and you'll be fine with either a low power of high power amplifier.

Just be sensible about volume levels and then either amp will do.

 

[Gray]

(e.g. a 100-watt receiver with volume setting turned to its maximum would damage a pair of 70-watt speakers).

No normal person would do that Roomy.
Would be like driving a car with your accelerator foot flat to the floor.
(Someone is going to point out that you need to do that in a bumper car 🙂).

 

[Roomy]

Got it. It's easy to understand why one shouldn't put to much power into speakers, but the opposite is less intuitive. Chris Majestic says you can damage a pair of 80 W (RMS) speakers with a "80-W per channel" receiver. Is he going a little bit too far?

 

[Gray]

Got it. It's easy to understand why one shouldn't put to much power into speakers, but the opposite is less intuitive. Chris Majestic says you can damage a pair of 80 W (RMS) speakers with a "80-W per channel" receiver. Is he going a little bit too far?

Sort of - because a genuine 80W amp should be giving adequate clean volume into most speakers - without needing to turn the volume high enough to cause trouble.

Trouble could occur with a low powered amp. Turning that up enough to enjoy might lead to 'clipping' (If you could see the output waveform on an oscilloscope you'd see the top and bottom clipped off) Clipping is caused by an inferior power supply running out of steam.
A clipped (squared off) output can destroy speakers - so a 20W amp could blow 100W speakers.

You'll find the people here have used paper specs as a (very) rough guide.
Their amps will often be outside the speaker manufacturers recommended ratings - but they will be using common sense when it comes to volume levels.
(Some of us blew tweeters when were young and stupid).

The rule is always to back off the volume if you hear the slightest distortion.

 

[Roomy]

Ok that's clear! 🙂

Now, I wonder if the way I intend to play music will really get the most out of my equipment (or, on the contrary, it will be like watching movies in VHS on a 4k OLED TV). I would rip CDs to wave files using my Dell desktop (XPS 8950) which has these specs:
CD-ROM drive : ATA HL-DT-ST DVD+/-RW GU90N, manufacturer = "Standard CD-ROM drives"
Sound card : Realtek Audio, and NVidia High Definition Audio (both are listed)
Video card : NVidia GeForce RTX 3060 12Go memory

I would then play them using VLC player. I'm not sure how I'd connect the PC to the receiver though. HDMI maybe.

So, a ~1100-1200 $USD kit like this one (Paradigm Monitor SE Atom 50 watts + Sony STR-DH590 receiver + Paradigm Defiance V8 8-in 75W subwoofer), I am wasting money on good equipment if I intend to use it that way?

 

[WayneKerr]

Ok that's clear! 🙂

Now, I wonder if the way I intend to play music will really get the most out of my equipment (or, on the contrary, it will be like watching movies in VHS on a 4k OLED TV). I would rip CDs to wave files using my Dell desktop (XPS 8950) which has these specs:
CD-ROM drive : ATA HL-DT-ST DVD+/-RW GU90N, manufacturer = "Standard CD-ROM drives"
Sound card : Realtek Audio, and NVidia High Definition Audio (both are listed)
Video card : NVidia GeForce RTX 3060 12Go memory

I would then play them using VLC player. I'm not sure how I'd connect the PC to the receiver though. HDMI maybe.

So, a ~1100-1200 $USD kit like this one (Paradigm Monitor SE Atom 50 watts + Sony STR-DH590 receiver + Paradigm Defiance V8 8-in 75W subwoofer), I am wasting money on good equipment if I intend to use it that way?

Not wasting money at all 👍 Just make sure that the amp and speakers give you the sound you desire.

Here's my 2p's worth:
Rip the CDs to FLAC using freeware program EAC (Exact Audio Copy), take time to set-up EAC correctly for your PC CD drive. FLAC tends to support metadata better than WAV. Ripping is the time-consuming bit.

Suggestion for an audio player is Foobar 2000 (freeware download). Foobar is basically the audio equivalent of VLC and very customizable. Other audio players are available.

Connecting to your amp. Not certain if HDMI carries a digital or analogue signal, hope others can help here. If digital then fine, if analogue then you'll be using the DAC in your PC, which are usually pants. I can see the receiver has both coax and optical connections on the back face, if these connections are used then you'll be sending a digital signal to the receiver and using the DAC in the receiver, which will probably be better than the DAC in PC.

Have a ponder and come back with any Q's and we will endeavour to help.

 

[Gray]

Not certain if HDMI carries a digital or analogue signal

Digital 👍

 

[Roomy]

I ended up buying the Onkyo TX-SR393 receiver with a pair of JBL Stage A130 speakers, and a Yamaha NS-SW050 subwoofer. It sounded much better than my neophyte ears had expected. I'm looking forward to installing them at home.

WayneKerr your explanation on DACs was timely. The salesman argued I should buy a better sound card for my PC, but it's not necessary if I connect the PC to the receiver via HDMI. Now, this might seem a little off-topic for this forum, but I wonder how to connect everything for watching movies. Will the image quality suffer if I pass another HDMI cable from the receiver to the TV? I guess not, since it's a home theater receiver.

I know for sure that I need an HDMI connection between the PC and the receiver (otherwise, the TV's DAC will poorly convert the music to analog, right?). I don't have an optical digital (TOSLINK) output on the PC, so I can't independantly output the video signal to the TV and the audio signal to the receiver.

The salesman sold me an optical digital cable to connect the TV to the receiver, but that will be useful only if I output the PC to the TV, and then need a way to pass the audio signal from the TV to the receiver.

In case it helps : my PC is a Dell XPS 8950, which has 3 DisplayPorts + 1 HDMI in addition the outputs shown in the attached picture

 

[GSV Ethics Gradient]

Will the image quality suffer if I pass another HDMI cable from the receiver to the TV? I guess not, since it's a home theatre receiver.

It shouldn't.