Technical assistance for philistines please

[admin_exported]

We are in the process of deciding which solution to adopt for streaming music throughout our house. We currently have a collection of approx 500 CDs and 700 LPs waiting to be ripped onto a NAS in FLAC format to replicate as closely as possible the quality of the music to which we listen now as a family (via Roksan Caspian CDP and amplifier firing through Ruark Prelude 2 speakers).

Going forwards, conceptually we are comfortable with relegating the CDP (and attendant CDs) to a back-up role. Until it is possible to download a broad range of lossless music, we will, however, continue to invest in CDs (or their successors). We will also be looking to listen to internet radio round the house via whatever streaming solution we adopt.

We are looking at Sonos as our preferred option, however as this is potentially an expensive one-way street, before we do, being unashamed philistines in the technical department, we had a few questions to which we would be grateful to receive some responses from more technically minded (not to mention experienced) MOs. For economic reasons, we will be looking to build up the number of zones covered in the house over a period of time, but will probably start with two.

We already have some decent speakers (all passive) and amplifiers/receivers scudding round the house. We would therefore be looking to maximise the number of ZP90s rather than ZP120s to utilise existing resources. We also have separate AV equipment.

Having spent a while researching this vast topic, we would appreciate a better understanding of the benefits/advantages of using:

1) wired (or “synthetically” wired via our house electrical cables) solutions vs wireless right around the house (nb we currently live in a three storey house plus basement where there are some Cat 5e Ethernet cables buried in wall cavities) 2) external DACs in all zones sitting between ZP90s, and amplifiers. 3) Beresford TC-7520s vs DACMagic as the external DAC solution 4) DACs as a pre-amp solution in this set up 5) EAC as the ripping software, compared to other solutions. Finally, we would appreciate knowing that we are on the right road, and haven’t forgotten important pieces of “luggage” – on the understanding that we prefer the Sonos streaming solution over the others. Observations and possible improvements would be welcome.

Many thanks in advance to those who respond, particularly as we are picking up several threads in one posting.

 

[Anonymous]

1) ÿAvoid using the house electricity cables if you can, ÿthey're reputed not to be ÿgreat for streaming music. Cat 5 ethernet is fine, as is wireless. There's no difference between tham, except with wireless, as the signal weakens, dropouts may occur. This can be avoided with a repeater.

2) You might want to consider the v-dac as well as the other two you mention.ÿ

 

[The_Lhc]

I'd have to say your Majesty that you sound like the perfect customer for Sonos, yes it is a little more expensive than some solutions but it's by far the simplest to use. As to your questions:

1) Unless your walls are 3 foot thick stone the Sonos wireless mesh network should be fine, and it'll get stronger as you add more zones, you can of course wire the zone players where convenient (like the basement) but it shouldn't be necessary.

I don't use a seperate DAC myself, I'm using the onboard DAC in my AV amp with my ZP90 and it does sound noticably better than use the analogue outputs, I can't comment on the merits of any particular DAC though unfortunately.

Luckily for you Sonos are now offering single zone packages (a ZP90 and controller for instance) saving about £80, however you won't necessarily need a controller for every zone, but you're best placed to determine that, I also saw somewhere this week that were doing a package of two ZP90s (or ZP120s but as you said you don't really want those) and a controller, which sounds more useful to you, I'll see if I can find the retailer.

FLAC will be ideal incidentally, that's what I rip to, I don't use EAC though, so I can't comment on how much better that sounds, but it already sounds as good as the original CDs did.

I'd say go for it, I can't imagine you'd be disappointed for one minute.

 

[John Duncan]

Bearing in mind that you have amplifiers around already, there are a couple of alternatives to do what you suggest: Squeezeboxes and Apple TV/Airport Express. If you're absolutely set on FLAC then it has to be the former rather than the latter, but if Apple Lossless would be acceptable then the Apple route will work.

However, I think because of your mention of internet radio that Squeezebox would be better, since the SB handles radio a lot better than Apple do. There are various alternatives clients from Squeezebox - the Classic, the Duet and the Transporter. They all serve the same function but the Duet adds a funkier handset and the Transporter is a big, audiophile, hifi looking beast.

I think for you the Duet could work out quite well, since you can add receivers reasonably cheaply (£99 each) and just have a couple of remote handsets around the house (£199 each). Alternatively you can get the Classic which has display and remote (though less sophisticated), or you can use iPhone or iPod Touch to control any of them.

If you haven't already bought your NAS, can I suggest that you buy one with a preloaded server of your choice (has to be Squeezeserver if you go the Squeezebox route, can be several if you use Sonos) - most run Linux and trying to install one after the fact can be difficult to impossible unless you're familiar with Linux kernels. Ripcaster (no connection) is a good resource for all of the above - they will preload the software you need and do offers on bundles of all the players mentioned so far.

Enjoy.

 

[The_Lhc]

JohnDuncan:Bearing in mind that you have amplifiers around already, there are a couple of alternatives to do what you suggest: Squeezeboxes and Apple TV/Airport Express. If you're absolutely set on FLAC then it has to be the former rather than the latter, but if Apple Lossless would be acceptable then the Apple route will work.

However, I think because of your mention of internet radio that Squeezebox would be better, since the SB handles radio a lot better than Apple do. There are various alternatives clients from Squeezebox - the Classic, the Duet and the Transporter. They all serve the same function but the Duet adds a funkier handset and the Transporter is a big, audiophile, hifi looking beast.

I think for you the Duet could work out quite well, since you can add receivers reasonably cheaply (£99 each) and just have a couple of remote handsets around the house (£199 each). Alternatively you can get the Classic which has display and remote (though less sophisticated), or you can use iPhone or iPod Touch to control any of them.

Bear in mind though that Squeezebox doesn't scale well, as I understand it, any more than about 4 and your home network can start to suffer under the strain. This isn't an issue with Sonos because, for the most part, it isn't using your home network, it's using its own network and can handle up to 32 zones, without trouble. It would probably be useful to get an idea of how many zones your intending to end up with (however many you're going to start off with), how many controllers you think you'll need etc etc (the controller for Sonos IS expensive, for what it is, not much more expensive than the Squeezebox controller if JD is right however. You can also use iPhones/iPod Touch as a Sonos controller, although in that instance it will need to use your home wireless network, no different to Squeezebox though).

If you haven't already bought your NAS, can I suggest that you buy one with a preloaded server of your choice (has to be Squeezeserver if you go the Squeezebox route, can be several if you use Sonos)

That's a slight understatement JD, Sonos can use ANY NAS which provides an SMB share, which is pretty much all of them. Sonos requires no server side software.

 

[The_Lhc]

Tarquinh: 1) Avoid using the house electricity cables if you can, they're reputed not to be great for streaming music.

I do know someone who does this as it happens, has his first zoneplayer wired through his electrical circuit, he's never mentioned any issues. He only has two zones though, I don't know how well it would cope with more.

Cat 5 ethernet is fine, as is wireless. There's no difference between tham, except with wireless, as the signal weakens, dropouts may occur. This can be avoided with a repeater.

That wouldn't be an issue with Sonos as it won't be using your home wireless network. Obviously if you've got a very large gap between zones they might not be able to communicate with each other, I'm not convinced your house is big enough to worry about that and you could buy a Zonebridge to plug the gap if necessary.

 

[John Duncan]

the_lhc:That's a slight understatement JD, Sonos can use ANY NAS which provides an SMB share, which is pretty much all of them. Sonos requires no server side software.

My bad, borne of Sonos ignorance. What that statement should have said was "if you go the Squeezebox route, for the love of God get a NAS with Squeezeserver preinstalled, because you don't want to be doing it yourself".

EDIT - though to be fair, I wouldn't want to let the wireless networking aspects of either be an issue for the OP - yes, you want a more powerful network the more clients you get, but I suspect that's the case with both systems and both can be dealt with using extenders or bridges.

 

[The_Lhc]

JohnDuncan:the_lhc:That's a slight understatement JD, Sonos can use ANY NAS which provides an SMB share, which is pretty much all of them. Sonos requires no server side software.

My bad, borne of Sonos ignorance. What that statement should have said was "if you go the Squeezebox route, for the love of God get a NAS with Squeezeserver preinstalled, because you don't want to be doing it yourself".

EDIT - though to be fair, I wouldn't want to let the wireless networking aspects of either be an issue for the OP - yes, you want a more powerful network the more clients you get, but I suspect that's the case with both systems and both can be dealt with using extenders or bridges.

Well this was my point, Sonos isn't reliant on your own wireless at all, in fact, you could get away with no wireless system at home at all, provided you had wired network between your storage (be it PC, NAS, whatever) and ONE of the zoneplayers (ok and a DHCP server of some kind...) the rest will happily communicate via its own wireless network, up to a maximum of 32.

I have to admit though, I do wonder how well even the wired part of any home router would cope with 32 zoneplayers all streaming different music at the same time using FLAC (never mind WAV!). I wonder how well my PC would cope, come to think of it... only one way to find out, where's my credit card?

 

[John Duncan]

Agreed, but it's still dependent on a wireless network (just happens to be one it creates itself). If that happens to be more powerful and/or reliable than G or N (I have no knowledge wither way) then fair play.

But yeah, the Sonos method does at least divorce it from anything else going on on the network (but you're tied in to Sonos clients only).

 

[Anonymous]

thanks for your input and suggestions, Tarquinh.

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks for your reply, the_lhc. Inevitably, it raises a couple of questions. Following the thread of your reply.

1) As it is an Edwardian house, and has had extensive internal works, 3 foot stone walls are fortunately not present. 2) How have you rigged up the ZP90 to your AV amp in terms of inputs/outputs? What cables are you using to connect ZP90 to AV amp? 3) If you find the retailer with package deals, please let us know.4) What software do you use to rip to FLAC? We were thinking of EAC as some of our CDS have been through some grubby junior paws.........and despite proper care and attention, you never know with the quality.

We are salivating at the prospect, however daunted by the thought of how long it may take to rip so much music........

 

[Anonymous]

thanks for your comprehensive reply, jd. Your reply raised a couple of interesting alternatives. To respond;

a) We would prefer to avoid the Apple TV/AE route for the two reasons you stated.

b) We are also considering the Squeezebox solution as we have been Spotified. It would appear that Sonos are fans of Spotify, so a solution may come over the horizon on that score.

c) We have not purchased our NAS as yet, so thanks for your advice in this regard.

 

[Anonymous]

thanks for the to/fro on the merits of squeezebox/sonos from a scale perspective. Reading the multiple postings from other Sonos users, ppl get so into that they get a unit for every room. If we were to fall so heavily for one or the other solution, it would appear that once you get beyond four zones, Sonos is more appropriate. Would that be fair ? In terms of wireless/wired, we would probably use the synthetic wired solution for the first connection, and wireless for all others - the house is not that big........

 

[The_Lhc]

Philip Buckingham:
Thanks for your reply, the_lhc. Inevitably, it raises a couple of questions. Following the thread of your reply.

1) As it is an Edwardian house, and has had extensive internal works, 3 foot stone walls are fortunately not present.

Ok, good, I can't see you having too many problems then.

2) How have you rigged up the ZP90 to your AV amp in terms of inputs/outputs? What cables are you using to connect ZP90 to AV amp?

Just a simple optical digital cable, nothing special, I can't even remember where I bought it! It wasn't expensive though (having worked with optical fibre in the past I don't believe there's any real difference in the quality of most cables. I did originally connect it up through the analogue outputs using the supplied RCA cable it was rather falt sounding, the optical cable sounded infinitely better, although I didn't try a better quality RCA cable to be fair, which could have made a difference (as it's analogue). It's only an old Sony AV amp (STR-930), I think I've got the optical plugged into the MD/DAT input (which shows you exactly how old the amp is!). I guess I could get a better DAC and use that but to be honest I don't know whether I'll hear the benefit using the amp I've got.

3) If you find the retailer with package deals, please let us know.

http://www.sonos-uk.co.uk The ZP90 bundle is £679, which will save you 50 quid over the normal BU150 bundle (it's the same price as buying the ZP90 mini-bundle and an extra ZP90 from here though, so you're not saving anything extra). If you quote NEWUSER you can get a discount apparently, no idea how much (I've never used the site personally). I notice their price for the Zonebridge is £2 cheaper than ordering direct from Sonos, and between £7 to £10 cheaper for the other components, which will save you a little if you're buying a lot I guess.

4) What software do you use to rip to FLAC?

dpPoweramp personally, takes no more than 5 minutes per CD on my old Pentium 4.

We were thinking of EAC as some of our CDS have been through some grubby junior paws.........and despite proper care and attention, you never know with the quality.

I've never used EAC, but I understand it can take up to an hour per CD with all the checking. You could always use both, use dbPowerAmp for CDs you know are ok and then use EAC if you get any trouble with any of them. All I can say is my FLAC rips sound fantastic (assuming the original CD is a decent recording obviously), I'm dubious as to just how much better they'd sound with EAC, although if a CD is scratched or jumps then it could help there.

We are salivating at the prospect, however daunted by the thought of how long it may take to rip so much music........

Well, like I said, my CDs take no more than 5 minutes, did you say you had 500? You're looking at about 40 hours all told, I just used to take a bunch up to the PC when I went to check my email and do some surfing and feed them in while I was doing the other stuff, you don't notice the time so much then. Once you've broken the back of it it becomes second nature to stick any new CDs in as you get them. Obviously this issue will be present regardless of what streaming solution you choose.

 

[John Duncan]

Philip Buckingham:If you find the retailer with package deals, please let us know.

Check the aforementioned ripcaster - haven't done a comparison to others, but they certainly do bundles (of all of the setups mentioned), and say "seen it cheaper? We won't be beaten on bundle prices".

 

[The_Lhc]

Philip Buckingham:thanks for the to/fro on the merits of squeezebox/sonos from a scale perspective. Reading the multiple postings from other Sonos users, ppl get so into that they get a unit for every room. If we were to fall so heavily for one or the other solution, it would appear that once you get beyond four zones, Sonos is more appropriate. Would that be fair ?

From what I understand of Squeezebox, yes, as I mentioned (once or twice!) Sonos can handle up to 32 zones without issue.

In terms of wireless/wired, we would probably use the synthetic wired solution

Synthetic?

for the first connection,

Well, for Sonos you have to use a wired connection for the first Zone (this is not strictly true but having the first zone wireless is tricky to set up and more importantly, is not a supported configuration by Sonos). This could be a Zonebridge incidentally, it doesn't need to be an active zone (ie playing music), if the location of your router isn't convenient for a zone.

and wireless for all others - the house is not that big........

I think you'll be fine.

 

[The_Lhc]

JohnDuncan:Philip Buckingham:If you find the retailer with package deals, please let us know.

Check the aforementioned ripcaster - haven't done a comparison to others, but they certainly do bundles (of all of the setups mentioned), and say "seen it cheaper? We won't be beaten on bundle prices".

Hmm, I hope you don't think I'm picking on you JD but Ripcaster's bundles seem to be significantly more expensive than the site I mentioned. I do have to say I've never used www.sonos-uk.co.uk (or Ripcaster come to that), so I can't verify whether they're any good or not, but they do appear to be cheaper. They've got the AVI ADM 9.1s for sale as well as it happens.

 

[John Duncan]

the_lhc:
JohnDuncan:Philip Buckingham:If you find the retailer with package deals, please let us know.

Check the aforementioned ripcaster - haven't done a comparison to others, but they certainly do bundles (of all of the setups mentioned), and say "seen it cheaper? We won't be beaten on bundle prices".

Hmm, I hope you don't think I'm picking on you JD but Ripcaster's bundles seem to be significantly more expensive than the site I mentioned. I do have to say I've never used www.sonos-uk.co.uk (or Ripcaster come to that), so I can't verify whether they're any good or not, but they do appear to be cheaper. They've got the AVI ADM 9.1s for sale as well as it happens.

No no, I have no ripcaster axe to grind, it just seems quite convenient and they seem to know what they're talking about. And if they'll price match as well, all to the good.

 

[Anonymous]

I've ripped all my cd's to disk using my iMac, iTunes, Apple Lossless and stored on a 1Tb Apple Time Capsule which also acts as a wifi hub. This is in my den. I connect over wifi to an Apple Airport Express which uses the analogue connection to my Nakamichi amp and then onto my Sonus Faber's.

Apple Lossless on iTunes includes error correction like EAC (which doesnt have a MAC version). In theory should be as good.

Ease of use 10/10. Sound quality - pretty hard to pick from CD - maybe 8/10. Cost compared to Sonos - 10/10.

Next steps that I am looking at is whether I run out of the digital feed of the AE and through a DAC - main problem is deciding which one as there is such a wide range both in $'s and specs.

I am also trying to work out what speakers to install in my kitchen and outside and whether I have to run cable to them or if there are some wifi options - seems like not for a reasonable price and of course you need power which kind of defeats the purpose.

ÿ

ÿ

 

[John Duncan]

glockers:
I've ripped all my cd's to disk using my iMac, iTunes, Apple Lossless and stored on a 1Tb Apple Time Capsule which also acts as a wifi hub. This is in my den. I connect over wifi to an Apple Airport Express which uses the analogue connection to my Nakamichi amp and then onto my Sonus Faber's.

Apple Lossless on iTunes includes error correction like EAC (which doesnt have a MAC version). In theory should be as good.

Ease of use 10/10. Sound quality - pretty hard to pick from CD - maybe 8/10. Cost compared to Sonos - 10/10.

Next steps that I am looking at is whether I run out of the digital feed of the AE and through a DAC - main problem is deciding which one as there is such a wide range both in $'s and specs.

I am also trying to work out what speakers to install in my kitchen and outside and whether I have to run cable to them or if there are some wifi options - seems like not for a reasonable price and of course you need power which kind of defeats the purpose.

ÿ

ÿ

The power to the speakers themselves is an issue yes, the wireless is not - for example Audioengine's powered speakers have an airport express socket, and can also be used with their own wireless dongle (the W1 I think?). So it's a case of getting power to the speakers and a wire between the two.

 

[method man]

to The LHC.

many thanks for all your help last week. I would PM, but couldnt see the button.

I have settled on the avi speakers and sonos.

the site: www.sonos-uk.co.uk is the one I was thinking of. with the speaker and sonos bundle. But as I have learnt I would also need a zonebridge. However Ive found the speakers for £1067.00, somewhere that i can hear them, that also sell sonos, that all in will be about the same as sonos-uk. By the way sonos-uk are a 30 minute drive from me. but when i rang them, they said they were not setup for customers to be able to listen to speakers.

The other lot offered to book me time in an audition room but its 1.5 hours public transport across london.

But I was so impressed with their manner, having been ponced around a bit and dead ended on the audition stakes a couple of time in the last fortnight, I will definatley be making the trip.

 

[John Duncan]

method man:
to The LHC.

many thanks for all your help last week. I would PM, but couldnt see the button.

I have settled on the avi speakers and sonos.

the site: www.sonos-uk.co.uk is the one I was thinking of. with the speaker and sonos bundle. But as I have learnt I would also need a zonebridge. However Ive found the speakers for £1067.00, somewhere that i can hear them, that also sell sonos, that all in will be about the same as sonos-uk. By the way sonos-uk are a 30 minute drive from me. but when i rang them, they said they were not setup for customers to be able to listen to speakers.

The other lot offered to book me time in an audition room but its 1.5 hours public transport across london.

But I was so impressed with their manner, having been ponced around a bit and dead ended on the audition stakes a couple of time in the last fortnight, I will definatley be making the trip.

There you go then - can't beat a bit of customer service. Good luck with it.

JD

 

[The_Lhc]

method man: to The LHC.
many thanks for all your help last week. I would PM, but couldnt see the button.

There isn't one!

I have settled on the avi speakers and sonos.

the site: www.sonos-uk.co.uk is the one I was thinking of. with the speaker and sonos bundle. But as I have learnt I would also need a zonebridge.

They're less than 70 quid though, which for the outlay you're talking about isn't really significant is it?

However Ive found the speakers for £1067.00, somewhere that i can hear them, that also sell sonos, that all in will be about the same as sonos-uk. By the way sonos-uk are a 30 minute drive from me. but when i rang them, they said they were not setup for customers to be able to listen to speakers.

Yeah they do look like an online retailer, which is always going to be a problem in this interwebs age. Personally I'd always want to audition something like this first (the speakers, I'll happily buy additional Sonos ZPs online now), but I'd never walk into a hi-fi dealer, audition stuff and then buy it online, I just think it's morally wrong, so the "real" shops will be getting my custom for some time to come yet.

The other lot offered to book me time in an audition room but its 1.5 hours public transport across london.

But I was so impressed with their manner, having been ponced around a bit and dead ended on the audition stakes a couple of time in the last fortnight, I will definatley be making the trip.

Cool, be interested to hear your thoughts on the AVIs. I hadn't considered them before now because I don't really want a separate music setup, so they'd have to integrate into my 5.1 setup and AVI don't do a centre speaker. not sure they're really right for AV either but I do like the idea of the accuracy that the AVIs are supposed to give.