Sub upgrade

[grdunn123]

I currently have a Dali EF-12 sub which is ok but a little too subtle and lacking in real impact. I don't want to spend a fortune and wondered what would be a decent upgrade?

Have considered the new BK 300 which has had a cpouple of good reviews or possibly the BK 400 or Monolith but that's about as big as I'd be able to get away with. Room is 4.5m x 4.5m abd it'll be used for movies and tv.

 

[ellisdj]

What's your budget?

What do you want it for movies or music ??

How much do you know about setting a sub up?

 

[grdunn123]

Budget probably £500 - don't know how much better I can get for that considering the Dali retails for same.

Movies - blu ray + Cable tv

Done a little sub crawl, use Audyssey and follow manufacturers guidelines.

 

[ellisdj]

Are you free for placement of the sub?

Where do you have your sub now?

 

[grdunn123]

Sub is in corner at present and any replacement will have to be in similar spot to a degree.

 

[ellisdj]

First glance the dali sub seems gutless at 170w - but its actually quite clever in that its a ported design.

But its still only 170w which is not a huge amount for a sub

The Monolith is a bigger badder version of the same thing - you would expect much better extension from it and much more output - especially the plus model. EDIT - not sure the Monolith best spot will be in a corner if you sit on a boundary wall - i.e. the back wall - so this is possibly not be the best sub option. The room gain will be a lot and it depends on Auddessey to sort it out - I am not sure I would trust it, I have never had the cahoonas to buy a ported sub even though I have always wanted to try 1. I am at leats 50% music that is why

The BK sealed subs are more aimed at music - so might not the best buys for pure movies

Kalibrate UK sell PowerSound Audio Subs - you can get a sealed 15" 550w sub from them that their specs rate it very highly at about same price - they rate its output equivalent to an SVS SB13 Ultra which is a cracking sub trust me.

So you get Monolith type output from a sealed box which is easier to manage

SVS have options as well - so you have a lot of choice - probably all much better than the dali for movies.

 

[ellisdj]

Sub woofer aside - bass all depends on where you sit and the freq response at that position - changing your sub wont change this much.

Trick to really good bass is to measure and know for sure - otherwise your largely shooting in the dark just changing subs - it might not fix "whats broken" used as metaphor depsite being much better

 

[grdunn123]

Cheers Ellisdj, will give those options a look. Seems to be a great deal of dispute about 'sealed v ported' and I've never gone down the sealed route. It's going to be a bit of a lucky dip as I won't be able to demo any of the options mentioned.

 

[jonathanRD]

If it helps, I have the BK XXLS400 DF, I originally was looking at the MA Bronze sub to go with my MA Bronze speakers but the XXLS400 specs were so much better for less money. After speaking to BK, they advised to go with the 400 for a 50/50 split between music and films (as opposed to the Monolith). At the time I had standmount speakers so I was keen to use the sub for music as well. They also advised the DF version as I have a laminate floor over a concrete base.

My room is 4m wide by 5m long, and I was able to place it where it sounded best without any restrictions. Now that I have floorstanders I use the sub less often for music so sometimes I wonder what the Monolith would be like. But to be honest, the XXLS400 properly shakes and rumbles my room during films which I love. It can be quite subtle in film sequences when it it supposed to be (if that makes sense) but when the explosions and crashes start, it's time to duck and take cover!

BK were very helpful on the telephone, you could ask them for some advice.

 

[ellisdj]

The BK400 is an ok sub - its very good for music average for movies in the grander scheme - there is better for the money for movies exclusivley such as the monolith

I have had a BKXLS400 and squeezed more performance out of it than most people will realise is available.

Bass is not about shaking your room - I run 2 big subs hard and my room never shakes - room shaking is false bass and distortion. If you go to a good cinema the walls never shake there, or in a good night club for that matter - why should they shake at home.

Bass should be clean and clear pressure with distinct tone and pitch - with good bass you are able to clearly indentify all the different bass samples within a good film for example - take the new tron, there are hundreds of different bass samples in that film its a work of art.

If you experience a good sub go deep you will realise the XLS400 makes noise and not notes - but it is nice and nimble for music. The XLS400 is running out of puff at about 35hz, I have measured this - it compares well to a few other sealed subs I have had - I thought it was 90% of the velodyne ultra spl1200 I had on demo.

You can better it for your money.

If you are happy with the ported sub in your current spot then the monolith could be the one - you will get all the same modes and nulls as you do now just with more output and more low end 30hz and below which is good, room depending.

Shame you dont have REW graphs for us to see or do you?

.

 

[jonathanRD]

Does anyone know a good builder as my walls have just fallen down with all this shaking *scratch_one-s_head*

I meant shaking as a figure of speech rather than literally but thanks ellis, I will have to get a monolith now, maybe I can pass off the 400 as a coffee table in another room? *smile*

 

[grdunn123]

I've experienced subs which do nothing more than 'rumble' loudly rather than give clean undistorted bass which is what I'm after. I'm guessing that sealed boxes will provide this better than ported units?

 

[ellisdj]

You missed my point the pair of you.

The xls400 is a decent sub overall. But it's better for music than it is films that's why bk sell the monolith.

Ported subs are more location dependent for best performance generally. Sealed subs are easier you can just place them in a corner.

However you will always get more from a Ported sub because it's more efficient design

 

[ellisdj]

The magic of the SVS SB13 ultra is that it performs better or equivalent to monolith output I can't remember but there are tests done from a sealed sub. But it's 3x price.
The monolith will probably still have better extension

So if power sound have achieved equivalent output and extension as they say also from a sealed sub at 1/3 price makes it a good buy in that price range

My cousin has an xls400 now we both bought them together. When he comes here he says I don't get the bass that sounds like a dinosaur roled over in front of you. That's just a saying he is very clued up how to test setup and measure his bass properly. Just an example of the difference

 

[ellisdj]

For contrast I recently had a chat with a guy who used to have 2x svs Sb13 ultra. He now has 2x XTZ 3x12.

He thinks for movies you can't beat ported subs so maybe a good ported like the monolith would be a good buy for you.

 

[jonathanRD]

Cheers ellis, excuse my sense of humour and my verbal reasoning skills (not my strongest point) but I do get what your'e saying. In fact I have found your explanation and advice really interesting.

I always knew that I was getting a 'compromised' sub, so your explanation of the differences in sound and placement issues are useful to know.

 

[ellisdj]

What is most shocking is if you put another sub down in the same spot you dont get that much different bass in terms of frequency reponse. This is not everything but its bloody important

Thats 2 measurements purple is SVS SB13 Ultra and the Blue is BK XXLS400 in the exact same spot in my listening room - before I did all the work to it.

The levels are slightly off to each other but Look how simialr they are - they are almost identical - the room has the exact same effect on both subs - if they were in my garden they would look completely different.

So changing the sub for a new sub wont drastically change your bass response - thats important to know when spending your money - dont expect a miracle in this regard, not even from a £5k sub

The other main point to note is look at the blue line XXLS400 from 40hz bottom axis its starting to fall off, i.e. reduce in amplitude. Thats the BK running out of puff basically as I have said

The Purple line the SVS SB13 Ulta holds its output and stays linear to about 20hz according to that graph. That is with room gain i.e. the room is helping the output stay linear - its linear to about 28hz I have found / from the spec without the gain. That doesnt mean its clean to 20hz in my room either - thats a different thing altogether

Its a great sub because it bridges the gap well between the sealed good sub for music and extended bass sub for movies for very reasonable money for its performance. For most people 1 of these would be enough, 2 are really good. I am hoping to try 4 at some point and see how it goes.

However if your not bothered by music it might make sense to go with a ported because its much more efficient - i.e. more output and extension from less amp power - hence the clever design of your dali, I like dali, they are good engineers.

To get deep bass out of small sealed boxes the companies have to massively over engineer the drivers - then boost eq with dsp the low end output which requires huge amp power - hugely inefficient design but self dampening and tight sounding as a result (this is my rough understanding). See then to get good low end needs loads of power - the 400w amp in the BK is not man enough, its also not designed this way. Its got an analogue amp in it and its low end is boosted with a lintwitz riley filter I am pretty sure - so nice sound quality for music from the analgue class A/B amp - but not the clever desp, over engineered driver, the peerless is good, but not the beats as in the SVS SB 13 Ultra and not the power either. SVS is 1000w rms and 3000w peak something like that

Ported boxes have none of these problems - you can model drivers in free software called WinISD. You can model any driver in a sealed vs ported box and see the difference for yourself. Sealed boxes are the enemy of bass extension

 

[ellisdj]

Also to factor in, with increased output you will get increased note ringing in your room - nodes that linger will have more intensity so last longer before decaying to be inaudible

Thats what causes boomy 1 note bass, the stuff that shakes your room actually - and eq reduces this but does not remove it because its actually physics at play.

Its can get quite technical and my understanding is not much more than basic level.

However its important to acklowledge that for all the sound frequencies bass nptes 250hz ish and below we can control to a large degree and make less the bad thhe problems we have in our rooms.

Learning to measure, understand and then correct will be the best thing you ever do - as opposed to relying on other auto eq systems, even if you still use them

 

[Frank Harvey]

I've experienced subs which do nothing more than 'rumble' loudly rather than give clean undistorted bass which is what I'm after. I'm guessing that sealed boxes will provide this better than ported units?

That's just down to sub design. I have also heard a lot of one note droners - a mixture of sealed and ported subs. This is one thing I hate, and would rather do without a sub than listen to this drawing my attention away from a storyline.

 

[ellisdj]

David I have no idea what he watches, probably same films as me and 99% of other people

This is the thread and his pictures of his setups and our conversation - you will notice valve amps and dali epicons, lots of room treatment - this is a guy cares about SQ far more than most. From post #29 onwards

Why would he want that many subs - for him 2 main reasons - more effortless low end, more drivers = more output overall and less each driver is worked, therefore less distortion - that has been his experience. He is not a numpty, his bass is all measured etc as you can see

His main goal is to try and even his bass response (reducing room induced flaws nulls and peaks) out more so he needs to use less EQ - another fine goal in my mind - that would not work in my room, I need more treatment.

I have had my whole views on bass changed recently with demos at Gecko.

He has 8 x 18's in the front corners - in a room about 6 x 4 metres (guess its hard to tell its tomb dark) - I expected it to pound my ears out with rough horrible bass - but it doesnt - what it does do is make for a very cinematic sound - more like what you get in a cinema. It also adds real presence to upper bass based content - for example the scene in the Hobbit 2 - where Bilbo first meets the dragon searching for the Archenstone. I have never heard sound so befitting of the content - that amount of bass drivers gave the dragon a voice so large it was like it was actually coming from a dragon of that size, with excellent, near fautless fidelity. It was a truly stunning demo of home cinema - there was not too much bass, there was just enough - the sound was effortless which is befitting of 8x18's hardly working

Coming Home I cant expect 2 x 13 to compete with 8 x 18 and it doesnt, I rebalanced my system to close the gap but there still is a very big gap between what I heard there and what I get at home. Hence my desire for more subs. If I added more subs it wouldnt be about general output - it would be more presence as you mentioned David and more low end clarity from more drivers, working less hard and more headroom which would make the sound more punchy when it needs to be. All good things.

It makes perfect sense when you think about it, taking the LFE channel out and simplfying - if you had 5 or 7 Full Range speakers in your system - using B&W 803 for example - they have about 16inch of combined bass driver per speaker 2 x 8inch bass drivers - thats a guess but its just an example

So thats 80 inch of bass drivers for 5 channels - but that would be the right amount of bass support decided by speaker designing masters Bowers and Wilkins for 5 channels of full range sound

However in home cinema we run 5 satellite speakers which are essentially the same as the B&W 803 mid driver and tweeter - but we only support all those speakers with 1 x 12" driver?

So in essence 80 inchs are suggested by B&W and we use 12 - so we are using 68 less than suggested?

When you break it down like that - what makes more sense 8 x 18inchs = 144 inchs so thats double whats suggested for 5 channels technically probably more like the right amount needed for 7 channels plus 4 atmos channels - maths is not my strong point - but it must be close

You need enough bass support for all the speakers you are using - not saying in a domestic environment everyone can have or wants 8 x 18 bass speakers - but for purposes of example and why.

 

[ellisdj]

I currently have a Dali EF-12 sub which is ok but a little too subtle and lacking in real impact. I don't want to spend a fortune and wondered what would be a decent upgrade?

Have considered the new BK 300 which has had a cpouple of good reviews or possibly the BK 400 or Monolith but that's about as big as I'd be able to get away with. Room is 4.5m x 4.5m abd it'll be used for movies and tv.

Hi Mate, if you give me your 3 room dimension and where you sit / where the sub is I will put the details into REW Sim and see what you have to start with? its about 90 % accurate so will give a verey good indication of what bass you are getting now

 

[Frank Harvey]

For contrast I recently had a chat with a guy who used to have 2x svs Sb13 ultra. He now has 2x XTZ 3x12.

He thinks for movies you can't beat ported subs so maybe a good ported like the monolith would be a good buy for you.

But what sort of sound does he like? What sort of films does he like? Some people just like outright volume, and being pounded to their seat with OTT bass. Others want bass presence, and along with it, refinement, detail, and for their sub to seamlessly blend with their speakers. The "Michael Bay Brigade" will more than likely prefer ported subs, whereas those who prefer more cultured films prefer something a little more subtle...

 

[grdunn123]

Hi, room length is 4.5m by 4.5m by 2.5m. I sit exactly half wat along one side and the sub is in the corner to my right just a couple of feet to the right underneath the front right speaker.as I face ahead

 

[ellisdj]

This is why I asked - you sub location could be half of the problem, more than the sub itself

I had to guestimate the subs actual location but if it roughly where it is in the picture you have som serios bass nullage and a huge peak at 35hz boom city.

 

[ellisdj]

Now if you were to put 2 subs one in each front corner - then you would have much much much better bass

check this out