Stereo Integrated Amplifier

[Frank Harvey]

*fool*

We all know that all amplifiers have the same job to do, but because of budgets, the end result varies, which is the main aspect of speaker matching.

The other aspect is characteristics/tonal balance. Not all amplifiers have been designed to be totally neutral. In fact, I'd say there are more "house sounds" out there than neutral amplifiers. I'm in favour of neither approach, as it is down to the end user's personal preference as to which they choose. To say that all amplifiers sound the same tonally is complete nonsense (even within designed parameters).

 

[TrevC]

*fool*

We all know that all amplifiers have the same job to do, but because of budgets, the end result varies, which is the main aspect of speaker matching.

The other aspect is characteristics/tonal balance. Not all amplifiers have been designed to be totally neutral. In fact, I'd say there are more "house sounds" out there than neutral amplifiers. I'm in favour of neither approach, as it is down to the end user's personal preference as to which they choose. To say that all amplifiers sound the same tonally is complete nonsense (even within designed parameters).

Given that amplifiers in general are designed to provide a flat frequency response how is a 'house sound' possible? The all amplifiers sound the same argument is a strawman one, nobody has said that.

 

[tonky]

a variety of amplifiers over the years - I level match using my ears (hearing no less) through one pair of speakers in the same living room. There are differences and each has its own "tonality". It can be quite marked. It may be dependent on the synergy with my epos es 14 speakers.Whatever it is - the difference is there to be heard. I sometimes hear at realistic volumes (when neighbours are out). Obviously differences are more marked.

Personally I think system synergy makes a difference (the interaction of the whole thing - including the living space) - I enjoy what I have - Most importantly I enjoy music through it. Life is too short to waste time on chasing perceived differences (or supposed lack of them).

Happy - 1. listening - 2. arguing - 3. respectifully discussing

Pick whatever takes your fancy

tonky

 

[Thompsonuxb]

 Its my term for the way bass is presented in the overall sound of something. In the brio r there was some bass, but it wasn't strong enough to sound natural...ie: the way the music was intended to be heard/the way the music sounded when recorded. With the roksan, it sounds more natural, and the bass is present, like it is when you are listening to a band live. It is not just a bit stronger,the bass, but vastly stronger, and therefore these amps can be described as sounding completely different in presentation. To my ears anyway.?

Hardly suprising given that the K2 BT can chuck 250 Watts per channel into your  4 Ohm Dynaudios and the Rega can only manage 73 Watts.

(And the fact that the K2 BT was twice the price of the little Brio R.)

Not really a very 'level playing field'.

But it affirms what he says - they do not sound the same.

According to some there should be no difference.

Not me, I insist on similar output power ratings. If I didn't the likes of you would say that I say a Roberts radio sounds like a Bryston.

What?.... *shok*

Last I cared according to you components are so cheap and are the same in all amps that they sound the same.

They have no 'electrical value' with ref the sum of an amps parts and so make no differences to sound.

The threads still alive if anyone again, has the stomach to read it.

 

[Igor Rossi]

Thanks for your answers,

at the moment I have a pair of cm8 and a PV1D, both fed by a Yamaha Aventage 1030.

next upgrade I'm thinking to add is a Hugo and then an integrated amplifier.

About the IA I'm taking into account the award winners Rega and Roksan

and I'm adding the Yamaha as2100 and Naim.

Last upgrade will be to replace cm8 either with the new cm10s2 or with Pmc twenty 23.

Regards,

Igor

 

[TrevC]

Its my term for the way bass is presented in the overall sound of something. In the brio r there was some bass, but it wasn't strong enough to sound natural...ie: the way the music was intended to be heard/the way the music sounded when recorded. With the roksan, it sounds more natural, and the bass is present, like it is when you are listening to a band live. It is not just a bit stronger,the bass, but vastly stronger, and therefore these amps can be described as sounding completely different in presentation. To my ears anyway.

Hardly suprising given that the K2 BT can chuck 250 Watts per channel into your 4 Ohm Dynaudios and the Rega can only manage 73 Watts.

(And the fact that the K2 BT was twice the price of the little Brio R.)

Not really a very 'level playing field'.

But it affirms what he says - they do not sound the same.

According to some there should be no difference.

Not me, I insist on similar output power ratings. If I didn't the likes of you would say that I say a Roberts radio sounds like a Bryston.

What?.... *shok*

Last I cared according to you components are so cheap and are the same in all amps that they sound the same.

They have no 'electrical value' with ref the sum of an amps parts and so make no differences to sound.

The threads still alive if anyone again, has the stomach to read it.

You make zero sense once again. You're making a habit of it.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

 Its my term for the way bass is presented in the overall sound of something. In the brio r there was some bass, but it wasn't strong enough to sound natural...ie: the way the music was intended to be heard/the way the music sounded when recorded. With the roksan, it sounds more natural, and the bass is present, like it is when you are listening to a band live. It is not just a bit stronger,the bass, but vastly stronger, and therefore these amps can be described as sounding completely different in presentation. To my ears anyway.?

Hardly suprising given that the K2 BT can chuck 250 Watts per channel into your  4 Ohm Dynaudios and the Rega can only manage 73 Watts.

(And the fact that the K2 BT was twice the price of the little Brio R.)

Not really a very 'level playing field'.

But it affirms what he says - they do not sound the same.

According to some there should be no difference.

Not me, I insist on similar output power ratin,gs. If I didn't the likes of you would say that I say a Roberts radio sounds like a Bryston.

What?.... *shok*

Last I cared according to you components are so cheap and are the same in all amps that they sound the same.

They have no 'electrical value' with ref the sum of an amps parts and so make no differences to sound.

The threads still alive if anyone again, has the stomach to read it.

You make zero sense once again. You're making a habit of it.

I make perfect sense!

I told you amps are designed and work to spec.

I told you they are not equal I even tried providing examples of where differences would be noticed using amps from different price points.

You insisted they all sound the same.

I even said you should give up your foolishness you replied similar to this reply.

All of a sudden 'if's' come into play - SteveR750 put a post up ref if's in the helluva long amp thread by fenner machine.

You? - I tell you man, you....strange

 

[TrevC]

Its my term for the way bass is presented in the overall sound of something. In the brio r there was some bass, but it wasn't strong enough to sound natural...ie: the way the music was intended to be heard/the way the music sounded when recorded. With the roksan, it sounds more natural, and the bass is present, like it is when you are listening to a band live. It is not just a bit stronger,the bass, but vastly stronger, and therefore these amps can be described as sounding completely different in presentation. To my ears anyway.

Hardly suprising given that the K2 BT can chuck 250 Watts per channel into your 4 Ohm Dynaudios and the Rega can only manage 73 Watts.

(And the fact that the K2 BT was twice the price of the little Brio R.)

Not really a very 'level playing field'.

But it affirms what he says - they do not sound the same.

According to some there should be no difference.

Not me, I insist on similar output power ratin,gs. If I didn't the likes of you would say that I say a Roberts radio sounds like a Bryston.

What?.... *shok*

Last I cared according to you components are so cheap and are the same in all amps that they sound the same.

They have no 'electrical value' with ref the sum of an amps parts and so make no differences to sound.

The threads still alive if anyone again, has the stomach to read it.

You make zero sense once again. You're making a habit of it.

I make perfect sense!

I told you amps are designed and work to spec.

I told you they are not equal I even tried providing examples of where differences would be noticed using amps from different price points.

You insisted they all sound the same.

I even said you should give up your foolishness you replied similar to this reply.

All of a sudden 'if's' come into play - SteveR750 put a post up ref if's in the helluva long amp thread by fenner machine.

You? - I tell you man, you....strange

Let's go back to that Behringer that sounds the same, well according to that blind test it does. It doesn't have cheaper than normal parts, it's just that electronic components are inexpensive in general. Understand now? If it used substandard parts the reliability would be impacted. Interestingly that same blind test also demonstrated that interconnects don't sound any different either.

 

[Romulus]

*fool*

We all know that all amplifiers have the same job to do, but because of budgets, the end result varies, which is the main aspect of speaker matching.

The other aspect is characteristics/tonal balance. Not all amplifiers have been designed to be totally neutral. In fact, I'd say there are more "house sounds" out there than neutral amplifiers. I'm in favour of neither approach, as it is down to the end user's personal preference as to which they choose. To say that all amplifiers sound the same tonally is complete nonsense (even within designed parameters).

Given that amplifiers in general are designed to provide a flat frequency response how is a 'house sound' possible? The all amplifiers sound the same argument is a strawman one, nobody has said that.

In my modest opinion some makers of amplifiers deliberately produce a 'house sound' to attract a certain types of music lover, a classic example is Naim Audio which is known to have the 'Naim Sound'. This would usually contain the famous PRAT in the sound but more fundamentally the music would come across in a more energetic way (a bit like drinking Red Bull then listening to your favourite song and suddenly everything is exaggerated), a lot of music lovers may be drawn to this sort of presentation but other music lovers would like a more slower approach to music with say more resolution in come a different amplifier to suit their taste. It would be boring indeed if all amplifiers say with the same power output sounded the same and a lot of HiFi makers would go out of business!

 

[Jota180]

*fool*

We all know that all amplifiers have the same job to do, but because of budgets, the end result varies, which is the main aspect of speaker matching.

The other aspect is characteristics/tonal balance. Not all amplifiers have been designed to be totally neutral. In fact, I'd say there are more "house sounds" out there than neutral amplifiers. I'm in favour of neither approach, as it is down to the end user's personal preference as to which they choose. To say that all amplifiers sound the same tonally is complete nonsense (even within designed parameters).

Given that amplifiers in general are designed to provide a flat frequency response how is a 'house sound' possible? The all amplifiers sound the same argument is a strawman one, nobody has said that.

One amplifier designer on another forum told me a well known British amplifier manufacturer added +10dB to the bass (was either +10 or +6) deliberately altering the signal. I argued that by doing so they were taking their amplifier away from Hi fidelity and into some other direction but he wasn't having it. Really, for an amplifier to be termed 'hifi' it should aim to provide as flat a response as possible across the human hearing range of freqencies and to have incredibly low distortion levels while the amp is operated within it's design limits.

 

[Jota180]

*fool*

We all know that all amplifiers have the same job to do, but because of budgets, the end result varies, which is the main aspect of speaker matching.

The other aspect is characteristics/tonal balance. Not all amplifiers have been designed to be totally neutral. In fact, I'd say there are more "house sounds" out there than neutral amplifiers. I'm in favour of neither approach, as it is down to the end user's personal preference as to which they choose. To say that all amplifiers sound the same tonally is complete nonsense (even within designed parameters).

Given that amplifiers in general are designed to provide a flat frequency response how is a 'house sound' possible? The all amplifiers sound the same argument is a strawman one, nobody has said that.

In my modest opinion some makers of amplifiers deliberately produce a 'house sound' to attract a certain types of music lover, a classic example is Naim Audio which is known to have the 'Naim Sound'. This would usually contain the famous PRAT in the sound but more fundamentally the music would come across in a more energetic way (a bit like drinking Red Bull then listening to your favourite song and suddenly everything is exaggerated), a lot of music lovers may be drawn to this sort of presentation but other music lovers would like a more slower approach to music with say more resolution in come a different amplifier to suit their taste. It would be boring indeed if all amplifiers say with the same power output sounded the same and a lot of HiFi makers would go out of business!

Other amplifier designers would say the electronics should not add or subtract anything to or from the music signal. They should be as neutral as is humanly possible to make and to get the 'flavour' of sound you're after try out different speakers.

It's speakers that alter the sound of any system the most so find the one's that suit your taste and your room.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

*fool*

We all know that all amplifiers have the same job to do, but because of budgets, the end result varies, which is the main aspect of speaker matching.?

The other aspect is characteristics/tonal balance. Not all amplifiers have been designed to be totally neutral. In fact, I'd say there are more "house sounds" out there than neutral amplifiers. I'm in favour of neither approach, as it is down to the end user's personal preference as to which they choose. To say that all amplifiers sound the same tonally is complete nonsense (even within designed parameters).

Given that amplifiers in general are designed to provide a flat frequency response how is a 'house sound' possible? The all amplifiers sound the same argument is a strawman one, nobody has said that.

?

In my modest opinion some makers of amplifiers deliberately produce a 'house sound' to attract a certain types of music lover, a classic example is Naim Audio which is known to have the 'Naim Sound'.  This would usually contain the famous PRAT in the sound but more fundamentally the music would come across in a more energetic way  (a bit like drinking Red Bull then listening to your favourite song and suddenly everything is exaggerated), a lot of music lovers may be drawn to this sort of presentation but other music lovers would like a more slower approach to music with say more resolution in come a different amplifier to suit their taste.  It would be boring indeed if all amplifiers say with the same power output sounded the same and a lot of HiFi makers would go out of business!

?

?

Other amplifier designers would say the electronics should not add or subtract anything to or from the music signal.  They should be as neutral as is humanly possible to make and to get the 'flavour' of sound you're after try out different speakers.

It's speakers that alter the sound of any system the most so find the one's that suit your taste and your room.

Jota180 that makes no sense - 'neutral' or flat is at the mercey of the mixing board.

What I want for example is clarity, resolution to deliver a undistorted clean presentation of the music I listen to.

Hi fidelity is about resolution or clarity it's not about flat responses.

The goal I would of thought was the amp delivering a pleasurable sound before speakers are considered.

 

[FennerMachine]

Stereophile have an interesting article about flat frequency response and speakers.

Apparently a flat response from speakers does not always make a good sounding speaker. Probably does not apply to amplifiers though.

Maybe pick the right speakers for you and your room then buy an amplifier that can drive those speakers properly? If the speakers are easy to drive, get a cheaper amplifier that has all the features you need, maybe the Marantz pm6005. If an awkward load from the speakers, then buy an over engineered amplifier such as the Yamaha A-S2100 that can do the job for those speakers.

 

[TrevC]

a well known British amplifier manufacturer added +10dB to the bass (was either +10 or +6) deliberately altering the signal.

With tone controls, obviously.

 

[TrevC]

*fool*

We all know that all amplifiers have the same job to do, but because of budgets, the end result varies, which is the main aspect of speaker matching.

The other aspect is characteristics/tonal balance. Not all amplifiers have been designed to be totally neutral. In fact, I'd say there are more "house sounds" out there than neutral amplifiers. I'm in favour of neither approach, as it is down to the end user's personal preference as to which they choose. To say that all amplifiers sound the same tonally is complete nonsense (even within designed parameters).

Given that amplifiers in general are designed to provide a flat frequency response how is a 'house sound' possible? The all amplifiers sound the same argument is a strawman one, nobody has said that.

In my modest opinion some makers of amplifiers deliberately produce a 'house sound' to attract a certain types of music lover, a classic example is Naim Audio which is known to have the 'Naim Sound'. This would usually contain the famous PRAT in the sound but more fundamentally the music would come across in a more energetic way (a bit like drinking Red Bull then listening to your favourite song and suddenly everything is exaggerated), a lot of music lovers may be drawn to this sort of presentation but other music lovers would like a more slower approach to music with say more resolution in come a different amplifier to suit their taste. It would be boring indeed if all amplifiers say with the same power output sounded the same and a lot of HiFi makers would go out of business!

Other amplifier designers would say the electronics should not add or subtract anything to or from the music signal. They should be as neutral as is humanly possible to make and to get the 'flavour' of sound you're after try out different speakers.

It's speakers that alter the sound of any system the most so find the one's that suit your taste and your room.

Jota180 that makes no sense - 'neutral' or flat is at the mercey of the mixing board.

What I want for example is clarity, resolution to deliver a undistorted clean presentation of the music I listen to.

Hi fidelity is about resolution or clarity it's not about flat responses.

The goal I would of thought was the amp delivering a pleasurable sound before speakers are considered.

A Bose system is the one for you!

 

[Romulus]

*fool*

We all know that all amplifiers have the same job to do, but because of budgets, the end result varies, which is the main aspect of speaker matching.

The other aspect is characteristics/tonal balance. Not all amplifiers have been designed to be totally neutral. In fact, I'd say there are more "house sounds" out there than neutral amplifiers. I'm in favour of neither approach, as it is down to the end user's personal preference as to which they choose. To say that all amplifiers sound the same tonally is complete nonsense (even within designed parameters).

Given that amplifiers in general are designed to provide a flat frequency response how is a 'house sound' possible? The all amplifiers sound the same argument is a strawman one, nobody has said that.

In my modest opinion some makers of amplifiers deliberately produce a 'house sound' to attract a certain types of music lover, a classic example is Naim Audio which is known to have the 'Naim Sound'. This would usually contain the famous PRAT in the sound but more fundamentally the music would come across in a more energetic way (a bit like drinking Red Bull then listening to your favourite song and suddenly everything is exaggerated), a lot of music lovers may be drawn to this sort of presentation but other music lovers would like a more slower approach to music with say more resolution in come a different amplifier to suit their taste. It would be boring indeed if all amplifiers say with the same power output sounded the same and a lot of HiFi makers would go out of business!

Other amplifier designers would say the electronics should not add or subtract anything to or from the music signal. They should be as neutral as is humanly possible to make and to get the 'flavour' of sound you're after try out different speakers.

It's speakers that alter the sound of any system the most so find the one's that suit your taste and your room.

Yes it is the speakers for me which give the final kiss to the whole sound and most difficult to choose for a system, however in my experience amplifiers also contribute to the whole sound, particularly to the nature of the sound, there is a distinct difference in the sound from an Arcam amplifier and a Naim amplifier using the same speakers. Think of a vocalist on stage singing to a microphone which is eventually connected to the speakers. For me the type of voice produced from the vocalist is slightly similar to what the amplifier contributes to the sound of the system, maybe I have been listening to only entry level amplifiers (up to £3000) and not come across a thorough nuetral amplifier which does not contribute anything to the sound except carry a signal from A to B.

 

[SteveR750]

Yeah, just buy it. How it sounds is unimportant.

Just buy it, you can't go wrong. Subjective reviews are usually fanciful mind fluff.

You don't half write some crap at times.

Pot and kettle.

One person says a given amplifier sounds muffled and closed in, another says it's bright sounding so shouldn't be partnered with bright speakers, yet another goes on about synergy, whatever that is. Mind fluff. It will sound almost identical to any other modern well designed amplifier, and comments like those impart no information at all.

At least I'm trying to debate with an open mind, and refrain from ridiculing those that have a different opinion or understanding. Anyhow, apologies for making it personal, it's not appropriate.

That's the key thing, and I don't think anyone would necessarily disagree that statement, but by the same token, it infers that all well designed amplifiers do not sound identical. I'd argue that pound for pound DACs have even less effect on SQ, and I'm pretty sure it doesn't matter what make or price of laptop I use. The issue is how to quantify "almost", and then applying a value judgement to whatever that measurement is. This of course assuming that it's not largely a placebo effect, but you could argue that even if it is all in the mind, given this is just a hobby, then that's fine. There are more delusional ways of spending one's leisure time.

 

[Romulus]

I think Trevor C lives in a world of theory when it comes to matter of HiFi electronics, and does not appreciate that in reality all aspects of HiFi can indeed vary. God help us if all makers of loudspeakers produced loudspeakers strictly on measurements and never bothered to listen to the final (or proto) product....

 

[SteveR750]

To be fair to Trevor, he has made no such claims about speakers, in fact the opposite.

 

[TrevC]

I think Trevor C lives in a world of theory when it comes to matter of HiFi electronics, and does not appreciate that in reality all aspects of HiFi can indeed vary. God help us if all makers of loudspeakers produced loudspeakers strictly on measurements and never bothered to listen to the final (or proto) product....

I think you may have confused me with someone else. Obviously loudspeakers sound hugely different to one another, and I have always said that a speaker change will make the biggest difference to sound quality. The next biggest in my experience is dealing with room resonance. It's always puzzled me why so many supposted listening rooms don't have a carpet on the floor or thick curtains. My room 20' by 13' has a big bass resonance at around 55 Hz which I have corrected with an Antimode.

 

[SteveR750]

I think Trevor C lives in a world of theory when it comes to matter of HiFi electronics, and does not appreciate that in reality all aspects of HiFi can indeed vary. God help us if all makers of loudspeakers produced loudspeakers strictly on measurements and never bothered to listen to the final (or proto) product....

I think you may have confused me with someone else. Obviously loudspeakers sound hugely different to one another, and I have always said that a speaker change will make the biggest difference to sound quality. The next biggest in my experience is dealing with room resonance. It's always puzzled me why so many supposted listening rooms don't have a carpet on the floor or thick curtains. My room 20' by 13' has a big bass resonance at around 55 Hz which I have corrected with an Antimode.

Do not confuse with Antimony.

 

[matt49]

I think you may have confused me with someone else. Obviously loudspeakers sound hugely different to one another, and I have always said that a speaker change will make the biggest difference to sound quality. The next biggest in my experience is dealing with room resonance. It's always puzzled me why so many supposted listening rooms don't have a carpet on the floor or thick curtains. My room 20' by 13' has a big bass resonance at around 55 Hz which I have corrected with an Antimode.

The weird thing is, you can post something on this forum about speakers (which we agree are the most important part of any system) and it's ignored. People seem to prefer to argue about the stuff that doesn't matter so much. Why is that?

 

[Thompsonuxb]

I think you may have confused me with someone else. Obviously loudspeakers sound hugely different to one another, and I have always said that a speaker change will make the biggest difference to sound quality. The next biggest in my experience is dealing with room resonance. It's always puzzled me why so many supposted listening rooms don't have a carpet on the floor or thick curtains. My room 20' by 13' has a big bass resonance at around 55 Hz which I have corrected with an Antimode.

The weird thing is, you can post something on this forum about speakers (which we agree are the most important part of any system) and it's ignored. People seem to prefer to argue about the stuff that doesn't matter so much. Why is that?

That's a strange thing to say.

Fact is it all matters. Speakers make a difference but an amp capable of driving and controlling them is pretty important.

Having a source that delivers a 'clean' signal to your amp is important.

Even the cables are important and can turn a good sounding system into a great sounding system.

That's why most would read a mag like WHF for tips to tweak and why most join forums to share their experiences and share their tweaks.

Many as listeners and nothing more.

 

[lindsayt]

The speakers are important because they all sound very different. Amplifiers, not so much, unless you go with weedy valve amplifiers.

...which sound more realistic if you don't need lots of power or high damping factor.

Some do say that, yes. But then they spoil their argument by using a rubbishy distortion riddled SET amplifier.

And where is your source of reliable, verifiable measurements to back-up your argument that SET amplifiers as a breed are riddled with distortion when compared to solid state class A/B amplifiers when used in applications where lots of power or high damping factor are not required?

Or are you just taking certain measurements in certain conditions and applying them to ALL conditions in which amplifiers may be used?

 

[TrevC]

The speakers are important because they all sound very different. Amplifiers, not so much, unless you go with weedy valve amplifiers.

...which sound more realistic if you don't need lots of power or high damping factor.

Some do say that, yes. But then they spoil their argument by using a rubbishy distortion riddled SET amplifier.

And where is your source of reliable, verifiable measurements to back-up your argument that SET amplifiers as a breed are riddled with distortion when compared to solid state class A/B amplifiers when used in applications where lots of power or high damping factor are not required?

Or are you just taking certain measurements in certain conditions and applying them to ALL conditions in which amplifiers may be used?

Are you serious? The high levels of second harmonic distortion at a relatively low power is the reason push pull was invented.