Starting over...

[insider9]

Like I mentioned before I've shifted the listening position and speakers are 5-6 inches from the wall. Previoulsy sounded best between 15-20 inches from back wall. Whether the new placements are correct or not I'm still undecided and may redo over the weekend to see if this can be improved. By ear there are no boom.

REW measurements pre/post Dirac smoothed 1/6 - here

REW measurements pre Dirac no smoothing - here

Waterfall pre Dirac - here

REW measurements post Dirac no smoothing - here

Waterfall post Dirac - here

Dirac applied (Primare A30.1) - here

Dirac applied (Primare I22) - here

 

[Vladimir]

The waterfall pre Dirac adjustment is still not that bad. Short decays, so there shouldn't be too much boooom. *good*

 

[insider9]

The waterfall pre Dirac adjustment is still not that bad. Short decays, so there shouldn't be too much boooom. *good* 

Glad to hear it. Never analysed any other rooms so wasn't sure.

Can only comment on what I hear. In all fairness it's not bad without Dirac not exactly boomy but muddied in bass. With speakers out in their usual position they're fine but at a cost to overall amount of bass.

 

[ellisdj]

They are not bad measurements at all but the main limitation of the system is its not full range at the minute,

You bass is falling from about 90-100hz so that will be a very lean presentation - need more bass as it goes lower not less.

The bass is shy by about 5 db from the dirac target in the 50hz region which is significant - however its an easy fix with subwoofers. if your concentrating on making changes to the system that would be number 1 priority for me - Must have enough bass for a full range sound. You can likely fix your 70hz null with subs as well.

For me the Dirac curve is very play it safe - I think you need far more bass than it suggests

 

[ellisdj]

Its interesting you are getting much better bass extension from the i20 than the i30.1

Edit you can see why you was getting boom - you have over a 10 db boost at around 100hz - thats unlistenable.

So back to what I put in the other thread - you pull the speakers away from the wall to reduce the boom but you dont have actually anywhere near enough bass so pulling the speakers away is overall far worse for the sound. I hate being right all the time lol

Have you tried putting the speakers across a corner boundary Audio Note style ? That would give you a lot more room gain in the bass?

 

[insider9]

Yes, as it stands the distance to walls both side and back is about 5 inches. Incredibly close for many speakers. The room has a small alcove half way through it's length (or is slightly L shaped if you wish) and the speakers are firing across the room pushed almost against the wall.

Bass wise thats the cleanest and most I've heard at home using any speakers. Not a massive problem as it just sounds great.

Do you reckon sub would be a way to go? If so how big? Considered floorstanders but I'd only get an extra 10 or so hertz before they rolls off. Remember looking at REL Quake before as the room is small it may go down to 20Hz with Dirac.

 

[insider9]

Its interesting you are getting much better bass extension from the i20 than the i30.1

Yes, I've seen that. It wasn't like that with my usual speaker/listening position placement. And by ear you wouldn't tell. A30.1 has more impact in bass so that surprised me a little.

 

[drummerman]

Save yourself a lot of headaches and buy 2 x Sonos 5.

 

[ellisdj]

The issue with adding subwoofers to a hifi system is integration.

If you have massive peaks in the bass response how could you possibly integrate it by ear - no chance at all and there will be big peaks in the repsonse

However with Dirac you wont have that problem. You can measure and adjust until you get the integration just right married up to the response you want in Dirac.

Its a bit of work but its something you will never regret doing and thank me for forever imo.

In terms of what sub to buy - tougher one as it depends on your budget - however you know you need it to do 20 - 100hz at about 95db. make sure the one you buy does that when tested not from the manufacturer spec sheet. It will need to be quite beefy to do that. Probably more like 30 - 35hz to 100hz is more realistic. 20hz most subs struggle to do properly.

Worth having a play with REW Sim and seeing where you would place the sub in your room and what you will get from it before spending any money. Get yourself halfway there before you start.

 

[drummerman]

Whatever you do I hope you find peace with your audio system. You do seem to have been searching a while and so I hope this latest venture works out for you.

Thank you, Major. Having been out of the loop for years I've rediscovered the hobby last year and it's been a crazy ride ever since. I guess I'm making up for lost time. The most ironic is that the closest I've ever been to what I'd call perfection I managed to undo in one simple ebay purchase. Another ironic thing is I may end up with EB2s sound after all. Just 4 or so months after But not too worry, technical aspect of the hobby is also very interesting. Live and learn. I still enjoy listening to music which is most important whether it being speakers or headphones.

EDIT

Things are getting exciting ordered Sony STR-DB930. Now we'll see what all the fuss is about. Should have it by Thursday

How is it going with the Sony?

I'm thinking about getting either the Onkyo TX8150 or 8270 if they are better than the Sony as a one box solution. The thing that puts me off is only the looks of the Onkyo.

Cyrus still here at present.

 

[insider9]

How is it going with the Sony?

What can I say... probably one of the best value amps you can get. Large and built like a tank with 110W per channel, DAC, phono stage, headphone amp, tuner and that's not to mention home cinema features which don't interest me. It's incredible considering it sounds good too. And that's for circa £100 or even less. I've had a good number of second hand integrated amps at this price point an none offered nowhere near in terms of features/quality/power.

Sound quality wise there's a lot of good and remember I compare this av receiver against stereo amps at 2-3 times the cost when new. I've done some listening with Dirac and some without. Also used Sony inbuilt DAC as well as the one in Yamaha. As a straight up amp when fed analogue signal it sounds best imho. It may have something to do with superior DAC in the Yamaha as opposed to amp capabilities. Inbuilt DAC is very capable and accepts hires signals but soundstage feels smaller or should I say most instruments/vocals feel bigger than they're supposed to and this gives away a feeling of a more congested and smaller soundstage. Yamaha can also digup some more detail and it just sounds clearer. It's not to say the inbuilt DAC is poor but the fact is Yamaha is better.

When measured is shows less extension and overall control but that's to be expected. By ear it's neutral and natural. It's musically satisfying though and happy with just about any genre. Rock/metal has enough of power and energy, jazz enough subtelty and richness of tone, layers of instruments in classical are adequately recreated. The amount of micro detail is less than I'd like. Also the amp has less clarity and soundstage feels smaller than Primare even with Yamaha DAC. Yes, I'm aware how soundstage and detail are a signature thing for Primare so no surprise here either.

One thing I'm sliglthly struggling to understand is how it responds to volume or really of my reaction to it. When I turn up either of Primare I get more, sound feels the room, details is easier to notice, etc. When I increase the volume on the Sony it's just louder... that makes it less comfortable to listen to especially with volume pot that isn't as good as on Primare. Don't know if it makes sense. I've been trying to put it down to higher THD but are my ears so sensitive?

-----------

As a side note. A week and a bit with Dirac and I'd like to retract something I said in an earlier post. I can hear differences between amps post Dirac so amplification still matters and not just the power stage. A first stumbling block to this little project, but won't give up just yet. Learning quite a lot so all's well

 

[drummerman]

How is it going with the Sony?

What can I say... probably one of the best value amps you can get. Large and built like a tank with 110W per channel, DAC, phono stage, headphone amp, tuner and that's not to mention home cinema features which don't interest me. It's incredible considering it sounds good too. And that's for circa £100 or even less. I've had a good number of second hand integrated amps at this price point an none offered nowhere near in terms of features/quality/power.

Sound quality wise there's a lot of good and remember I compare this av receiver against stereo amps at 2-3 times the cost when new. I've done some listening with Dirac and some without. Also used Sony inbuilt DAC as well as the one in Yamaha. As a straight up amp when fed analogue signal it sounds best imho. It may have something to do with superior DAC in the Yamaha as opposed to amp capabilities. Inbuilt DAC is very capable and accepts hires signals but soundstage feels smaller or should I say most instruments/vocals feel bigger than they're supposed to and this gives away a feeling of a more congested and smaller soundstage. Yamaha can also digup some more detail and it just sounds clearer. It's not to say the inbuilt DAC is poor but the fact is Yamaha is better.

When measured is shows less extension and overall control but that's to be expected. By ear it's neutral and natural. It's musically satisfying though and happy with just about any genre. Rock/metal has enough of power and energy, jazz enough subtelty and richness of tone, layers of instruments in classical are adequately recreated. The amount of micro detail is less than I'd like. Also the amp has less clarity and soundstage feels smaller than Primare even with Yamaha DAC. Yes, I'm aware how soundstage and detail are a signature thing for Primare so no surprise here either.

One thing I'm sliglthly struggling to understand is how it responds to volume or really of my reaction to it. When I turn up either of Primare I get more, sound feels the room, details is easier to notice, etc. When I increase the volume on the Sony it's just louder... that makes it less comfortable to listen to especially with volume pot that isn't as good as on Primare. Don't know if it makes sense. I've been trying to put it down to higher THD but are my ears so sensitive?

-----------

As a side note. A week and a bit with Dirac and I'd like to retract something I said in an earlier post. I can hear differences between amps post Dirac so amplification still matters and not just the power stage. A first stumbling block to this little project, but won't give up just yet. Learning quite a lot so all's well

Interesting and thanks for such detailed feedback. You know there is one input with which you can circumnavigate all processing with the Sony. The others have some processing but its reduced to a minimum. That one input really sounds superior to all others.

Mine is in storage so I haven't used it for a while but if you google it should come up which one and how to do it.

Anyway, the Sony is usually my suggestion for the 'hard done by', the poor or just the canny. It is good vfm at under a hundred quid.

If you can, remove all the S-VHS boards and radio tuner. That may add a smidgen of quality and its easy to do.

Have fun and may your journey continue in a fun filled fashion.

 

[insider9]

Interesting and thanks for such detailed feedback. You know there is one input with which you can circumnavigate all processing with the Sony. The others have some processing but its reduced to a minimum. That one input really sounds superior to all others.

Mine is in storage so I haven't used it for a while but if you google it should come up which one and how to do it.

Anyway, the Sony is usually my suggestion for the 'hard done by', the poor or just the canny. It is good vfm at under a hundred quid.

If you can, remove all the S-VHS boards and radio tuner. That may add a smidgen of quality and its easy to do.

Have fun and may your journey continue in a fun filled fashion.

Thanks, will look online. When using analogue I've been using 5.1 inputs (front stereo pair). These inputs are the big reason I went with that model. With possible active crossovers I intend to use front for HF and back for LF at least that's the theory. I don't think there is an option to apply any processing with these inputs from menus alone.

EDIT

Reading some info on the internet. Apparently they call it Analog Direct/Bypass and the inputs I'm using (surround sound) are the ones

 

[drummerman]

Interesting and thanks for such detailed feedback. You know there is one input with which you can circumnavigate all processing with the Sony. The others have some processing but its reduced to a minimum. That one input really sounds superior to all others.

Mine is in storage so I haven't used it for a while but if you google it should come up which one and how to do it.

Anyway, the Sony is usually my suggestion for the 'hard done by', the poor or just the canny. It is good vfm at under a hundred quid.

If you can, remove all the S-VHS boards and radio tuner. That may add a smidgen of quality and its easy to do.

Have fun and may your journey continue in a fun filled fashion.

Thanks, will look online. When using analogue I've been using 5.1 inputs (front stereo pair). These inputs are the big reason I went with that model. With possible active crossovers I intend to use front for HF and back for LF at least that's the theory. I don't think there is an option to apply any processing with these inputs from menus alone.

EDIT

Reading some info on the internet. Apparently they call it Analog Direct/Bypass and the inputs I'm using (surround sound) are the ones

Interesting. I could swear there was only one input that is totally direct ... ?

 

[seemorebtts]

Very interesting keep them coming

 

[insider9]

Lot's has changed since I last posted. The project has been evolving and still is. I finally got my hand on Minidsp 2x4 HD and started playing with it. Great toy and I'm learning a lot.

Setup as follows.

PC with Roon and Tidal Hifi as source > Minidsp 2x4 HD > Sony STR-DB930 > Red Rose Rosebuds + REL Quake

I've tried quite a few placements for sub and adjusted speaker position and toe-in and shifted listening position again. As it stands I'm rather pleased with results so will be taking some time to assess before and if I will be taking it to next stage. Managed to integrate a sub thanks to Umik-1. I honestly don't know how people do it without measurement mics. Dirac Live trial finished and now I'm considering how much better will minidsp be after an upgrade.

Current setup is about half way there in terms of what I was conisdering to do. As it stands active crossover between the sub and speakers. DSP on the sub and up to 2,200Hz on Rosebuds. I've decided that with listening on axis there's no need to correct those ribbons. Speakers are intact and I will not be taking passive crossovers out. If I'm tempted to go all active I'll buy a pair of two ways for that.

Interesting to see differences between post Dirac and minidsp with crossovers and filters I've designed. Early days and I'm sure it could be done better. Also note I've applied a house curve similar to Dirac though it's about +/- 3db across the spectrum.

Here's some graphs:

Sony + Rosebuds pre/post Dirac - here

Sony + Rosebuds post Dirac vs Sony+Rosebuds+REL Quake with Minidsp - here

And more below:

Waterfall, impulse, 1/6 smoothing, No smoothing

Feedback very welcome. Especially in terms of house curve which is a new concept for me. And how beneficial would be upgrading 2x4 HD to DDRC-24. Thanks

 

[drummerman]

This is all great but how does it sound?

I appreciate it's all good fun and a new toy though.

Just don't get too wrapped up in it ;-)

Ps. To adjust mine a just quickly delve into the Sony's great EQ.

I swear I got it sounding like a valve amp at present

 

[ellisdj]

I have just looked over it all again - ignore what I said before, because it looks like thats what you have done already.

How did you set this up - it doesnt look like the dirac stock target curve - unless in REW it looks a little different due to the scale differences? You have done a really good job there. Must translate the music really well

 

[insider9]

The house curve is all my design and a crossover was particularly tricky to do. I tried with a completely flat 20-20,000 and it sounded wrong. The midrange balance to treble was wrong, overall really bright and bass shy presentation. My speakers image well and can throw a decent soundstage and with flat curve the air was gone. What was even more troubling was how volume changes even more impacted on already shy bass. So it felt uncomfortable to listen to as I cranked up volume to get more bass.

Must say, it was then I discovered the term house curve and it all made sense how Dirac sets it up. I don't particularly enjoy a steep roll off in treble that's usually applied by Dirac. No point of having ribbons if you going to roll of above 15kHz.

To answer Drummerman's question it sounds really good. More bass than I'm used to but that's to be expected coming from small standmounts to that kind of setup. Bass sounds full and really clear. The graph without smoothing particularly shows of how good the bass is. Really impressed considering how much I paid for the sub.

The thing that surprises me is that even though I crossover at 92Hz the stereo effect in bass is still there. So image isn't skewed even though the sub is placed to my left I can quite clearly hear usual bass lines and kick drum placed centrally or even in right channel as on some jazz recordings.

 

[ellisdj]

It looks like you have set it up really good.
The power to see the sound your getting makes such a difference doesnt it.

Not good for the ocd though

 

[insider9]

That's why I'm wondering what to do next if anything. It may be I'll be happy for now. I can definitely recommend Minidsp 2x4 HD to anyone fantasctic upgrade to any system and especially for those considering subs. When you look at the results I'm getting (granted in a small room) with such small and inexpensive sub it really is something. Quake cost me £75, yes it may not be a looker but it was an experiment and it really delivers. Reason why I got it was more to do with speaker integration. I needed speed in bass and was concerened that I might not get it from 10 or 12" subs.

The fact you've got full control over filters is amazing making this really flexible solution. Should I wish to go towards more neutral curve in time it means no extra purchases.

 

[lpv]

I've heard recently 3 x 15 inch top class subs in normal british front room all set up by experienced guy.. he uses mini dsp too.. from what I've heard it brings very little to music.. he was switching subs on and off while music was playing...

dance, hiphop and movies yes but not much difference for anything else

 

[insider9]

I've heard recently 3 x 15 inch top class subs in normal british front room all set up by experienced guy.. he uses mini dsp too..  from what I've heard it brings very little to music.. he was switching subs on and off while music was playing...

dance, hiphop and movies yes but not much difference for anything else

I agree in normal condition it doesn't bring much. I crossover at 92Hz. So majority of bass wouldn't e there if I turned the sub off. The idea is to give some respite to drivers for more clarity in midrange.

My speakers are only small standmounts but could go down to 50Hz but crossing over higher makes it much easier to apply correction.

 

[seemorebtts]

Glad to hear your happy.just wondering what does it sound like with no filters on

 

[ellisdj]

just wondering what does it sound like with no filters on

Just guessing a fat thin blurred version of same thing