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insider9

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2016
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First to address two comments above. I also tend to agree. Taking Rosebuds apart would be almost a sacrilige in my book.

Secondly, a few interesting findings having been playing with Dirac Live since late Thursday. Once Dirac filters are applied there are no noticeable differences in sound quality whether I'm running A30.1 or I22. I'd go as far as to say that if the amp's, power amp section, is of sufficient quality to drive the speakers there will be no difference at all. I'll check this theory once I get a cheaper amp namely Sony STR-DB930.

The interesting thing is how after applying Dirac A30.1 became a much faster amp. When using default filters though the wonderful timbre disappears and soundstage feels less involving. Luckily this can be remedied by slight bump in midrange and I'm talking about 1db no more. That also applies to I22, hence I can have I22 richer sounding.

Onto speakers, Rosebuds perform amazingly well. QLN Qubic 122 no so, I guess the quality of the drive units makes a huge difference. The room is pants though and I'm having issues in some regions of bass especially at 69-70Hz with a big (18db) dip I can't do anything about. I've tried about a milion different positions for spekers with issues moving about in but finally settling on a more even bass response but with 69-70Hz dip remaining.

I measured with REW pre/post Dirac and must say that Dirac's estimations are much exaggerated. The above measured dip at 69-70Hz according to Dirac should be only about 2db post Dirac. I measured it at -18db post and -20db pre. Unless they're showing a really inventive smooting, I don't know what's happening. I'm not knocking Dirac here as the differences especially in decay times are of 100ms and that's a lot if you consider room size / distance between speakers and mic. And overall it's very beneficial. Just saying that those graphs look much exaggerated to me. No wonder they say "estimated" :)

Overall Dirac gives a lot. The flexibilty is fantastic as it can be used to gradually "educate" the ears towards more neutral curve while counteracting the effects of the room. That alone is great. The clarity at any volume level is great and I've noticed also that listening loud doesn't cause any discomfort. I would say though that was I to listen to analogue sources I'm not sure I'd use Dirac though. Since my whole signal chain is digital this solution seems logical as there cannot be any loss of quality as all changes occur in digital domain.

Ok, next steps. I need to test theory regarding the amp. If a cheaper amp could achieve the same no point in using something more expensive. Especially since I may need 4 channels driven. Speaker wise I'm stumped. Rosebuds do really well and can stay relatively flat (besides room effects) to 44Hz with Dirac (naturally roll of at 50Hz) that's a decent result. Must say I'm happy with that. I don't know whether at the budget I set out I'll be able to get a better pair, with better drivers that is. The solution would be to either leave them as is or look to boost them in bass. That could be done with either a sub or a pair of speakers that would only do sub 200-300Hz.

In such scenario I'd use active crossovers to Rosebuds (untouched) to send everything over say 200-300Hz and active crossover to sub or a pair of big driver speakers. Would such scenario improve midrange? I've met a local guy who builds speaker cabinets (mostly for gigs) so might have a custom build stands with built in 10 inch drivers for Rosebuds. That would be a quasi solution to active crossovers.

Any thoughts on that?
 

Vladimir

New member
Dec 26, 2013
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Play this video and write down frequencies where sound gets louder or quieter. Work on evening those out by ear in EQ.
 

insider9

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2016
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Vladimir said:
Play this video and write down frequencies where sound gets louder or quieter. Work on evening those out by ear in EQ. 
Thanks, Vladimir. REW has a sine wave generator and an spl meter so I can not only tell by the ear but also see the volume level changing and by how much.
 

seemorebtts

Well-known member
Feb 2, 2013
66
0
18,540
insider9 said:
First to address two comments above. I also tend to agree. Taking Rosebuds apart would be almost a sacrilige in my book.

Secondly, a few interesting findings having been playing with Dirac Live since late Thursday. Once Dirac filters are applied there are no noticeable differences in sound quality whether I'm running A30.1 or I22. I'd go as far as to say that if the amp's, power amp section, is of sufficient quality to drive the speakers there will be no difference at all.

I'm not sure what going on again sorry for being a bit slow.if you put filters on the amps then it will change the sound.so what's the point.im confused *SCRATCH*
 

Vladimir

New member
Dec 26, 2013
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seemorebtts said:
insider9 said:
First to address two comments above. I also tend to agree. Taking Rosebuds apart would be almost a sacrilige in my book.

Secondly, a few interesting findings having been playing with Dirac Live since late Thursday. Once Dirac filters are applied there are no noticeable differences in sound quality whether I'm running A30.1 or I22. I'd go as far as to say that if the amp's, power amp section, is of sufficient quality to drive the speakers there will be no difference at all.

I'm not sure what going on again sorry for being a bit slow.if you put filters on the amps then it will change the sound.so what's the point.im confused *SCRATCH*
Any sort of EQ-ing of the system to fix the room is a compormise. Those with horrendous issues may appreciate the results far more than someone with decently behaved room. Even taste in music plays a factor, how bassy and well produced it is. Those into pop-rock-hiphop-electro may not notice their gear sounding worse in order to make the room sound better.

Ideally you want to fix the room, not modify the sonic character of the gear. You can't fill in a bass suckout with EQ. Pushing more amplitude in that frequency may lead to tremendous driver distortion, especially at high levels. Even worse if the system was active and your ignorance had an absolute say which driver does what.

A slight added bloat in the bass could completely ruin the midrange to someone with picky ears and well produced music in typically behaved room. If you have lots of glass surfaces, leather, tiles, bare hardwood floors, reducing brighter frequencies radiated at you from off-axis reflections may ruin on-axis presentation, especially 'presence'. First you had bright, clear, vivid, but harsh, and after EQ-ing the result is neutral sound, pleasant but closed in, lack of detail and liveliness in vocals. Better solution would be to reduce reflections from those surfaces with thick curtains, quilts, rugs.

I've posted this lecture video before, but it's worth posting again for those who haven't seen it. IMO well worth watching multiple times.
 

seemorebtts

Well-known member
Feb 2, 2013
66
0
18,540
Vladimir said:
seemorebtts said:
insider9 said:
First to address two comments above. I also tend to agree. Taking Rosebuds apart would be almost a sacrilige in my book.

Secondly, a few interesting findings having been playing with Dirac Live since late Thursday. Once Dirac filters are applied there are no noticeable differences in sound quality whether I'm running A30.1 or I22. I'd go as far as to say that if the amp's, power amp section, is of sufficient quality to drive the speakers there will be no difference at all.

I'm not sure what going on again sorry for being a bit slow.if you put filters on the amps then it will change the sound.so what's the point.im confused *SCRATCH*
Any sort of EQ-ing of the system to fix the room is a compormise. Those with horrendous issues may appreciate the results far more than someone with decently behaved room. Even taste in music plays a factor, how bassy and well produced it is. Those into pop-rock-hiphop-electro may not notice their gear sounding worse in order to make the room sound better. 

Ideally you want to fix the room, not modify the sonic character of the gear. You can't fill in a bass suckout with EQ. Pushing more amplitude in that frequency may lead to tremendous driver distortion, especially at high levels. Even worse if the system was active and your ignorance had an absolute say which driver does what.

A slight added bloat in the bass could completely ruin the midrange to someone with picky ears and well produced music in typically behaved room. If you have lots of glass surfaces, leather, tiles, bare hardwood floors, reducing brighter frequencies radiated at you from off-axis reflections may ruin on-axis presentation, especially 'presence'. First you had bright, clear, vivid, but harsh, and after EQ-ing the result is neutral sound, pleasant but closed in, lack of detail and liveliness in vocals. Better solution would be to reduce reflections from those surfaces with thick curtains, quilts, rugs.

I've posted this lecture video before, but it's worth posting again for those who haven't seen it. IMO well worth watching multiple times.
. Ok I'll give it a watch.i saw a demonstration once on how to make your system better by using acoustic sound panels and rack's and acoustic feet for your hifi and wires.i was completely amazed and the difference in sound as he went from a cheap good rack to the most expensive one but when he took the panels away it all went to s***t.
 

insider9

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2016
1,018
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Vladimir, many thanks for the link.

Yes, I agree that fixing the room would be also helpful. And ideally should be done at the same time. Unfortunately many times it's not possible unless the room only serves this one purpose.

In regards to digital room correction I don't quite agree. In my mind it is a rather old school approach and very valid when listening to analogue sources. When listening to digital sources, whether CD, downloads or streaming I don't think it quite applies. The signal remains digital until sent to an amp. Any filtering happens pre dac. Hence filtering that occurs and corrects for both speaker and the room will not degrade the quality.

Further more when filtering can cause improvements in time domain even more gains are to be had in sound quality. Dirac Live is not just a glorified EQ that uses a mic to measure the room and correct accordingly.

That's the reason why I'm considering implementing Dirac Live and possibly active crossovers. Using linear phase or in case of Dirac Live mixed phased filters can help better control driver behaviour and limit distortion. Using linear phase is impossible using passive crossovers.

To answer Seemorebtts question. What I'm hoping to achieve would not only improve sound quality but also give me a very flexible solution. Flexible in a way that I could use my system in any room as long as I'd measure it and apply appropriate filters (doesn't take long). Flexible in a way that I could use virtually any pairing of equipment not worrying that it's not going to sound right. So I22 with EB2s, no problem. Big floorstanders in a small size room, sure why not. Flexible should I want a warm sound or a bright sound. You decide what sound suits you with applying correct filter. But most importantly it gives you an opportunity to "educate" your ears gradually going towards neutral.

Also from practical point of view (my wife's) I could have a system that costs a fraction of high end systems with great sound quality. Whether that's achievable at the budget I set out for this experiment is a different matter :)

Disclaimer
If any of my theory has holes or inaccuracies, please feel free to correct me. I'm only learning about this and don't pretend to be an expert. Cheers
 

seemorebtts

Well-known member
Feb 2, 2013
66
0
18,540
insider9 said:
Vladimir, many thanks for the link.

Yes, I agree that fixing the room would be also helpful. And ideally should be done at the same time. Unfortunately many times it's not possible unless the room only serves this one purpose.

In regards to digital room correction I don't quite agree. In my mind it is a rather old school approach and very valid when listening to analogue sources. When listening to digital sources, whether CD, downloads or streaming I don't think it quite applies. The signal remains digital until sent to an amp. Any filtering happens pre dac. Hence filtering that occurs and corrects for both speaker and the room will not degrade the quality.

Further more when filtering can cause improvements in time domain even more gains are to be had in sound quality. Dirac Live is not just a glorified EQ that uses a mic to measure the room and correct accordingly.

That's the reason why I'm considering implementing Dirac Live and possibly active crossovers. Using linear phase or in case of Dirac Live mixed phased filters can help better control driver behaviour and limit distortion. Using linear phase is impossible using passive crossovers.

To answer Seemorebtts question. What I'm hoping to achieve would not only improve sound quality but also give me a very flexible solution. Flexible in a way that I could use my system in any room as long as I'd measure it and apply appropriate filters (doesn't take long). Flexible in a way that I could use virtually any pairing of equipment not worrying that it's not going to sound right. So I22 with EB2s, no problem. Big floorstanders in a small size room, sure why not. Flexible should I want a warm sound or a bright sound. You decide what sound suits you with applying correct filter. But most importantly it gives you an opportunity to "educate" your ears gradually going towards neutral.

Also from practical point of view (my wife's) I could have a system that costs a fraction of high end systems with great sound quality. Whether that's achievable at the budget I set out for this experiment is a different matter :)

Disclaimer
If any of my theory has holes or inaccuracies, please feel free to correct me. I'm only learning about this and don't pretend to be an expert. Cheers
your teaching me to be honest.how much is this eq thing.sorry lot to read on here
 

insider9

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2016
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There are a couple of them. The one I'm going for is around £550 including a mic. It needs to be bought from outside UK as not seen anyone here selling it. You'd need a pc to take measurements and set filters to configure the device. It then works without a pc.

It does contain a dac so for the money it's really well priced imho.

Edit
Worth adding that if you're happy with default filters all you need to do is put the mic in 9 positions shown on screen and the setup can be done in a few minutes.
 

seemorebtts

Well-known member
Feb 2, 2013
66
0
18,540
insider9 said:
There are a couple of them. The one I'm going for is around £550 including a mic. It needs to be bought from outside UK as not seen anyone here selling it. You'd need a pc to take measurements and set filters to configure the device. It then works without a pc.

It does contain a dac so for the money it's really well priced imho.

Edit
Worth adding that if you're happy with default filters all you need to do is put the mic in 9 positions shown on screen and the setup can be done in a few minutes.
ok I'm understanding it now.
 

Vladimir

New member
Dec 26, 2013
220
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0
insider9 said:
Vladimir, many thanks for the link.

Yes, I agree that fixing the room would be also helpful. And ideally should be done at the same time. Unfortunately many times it's not possible unless the room only serves this one purpose.

In regards to digital room correction I don't quite agree. In my mind it is a rather old school approach and very valid when listening to analogue sources. When listening to digital sources, whether CD, downloads or streaming I don't think it quite applies. The signal remains digital until sent to an amp. Any filtering happens pre dac. Hence filtering that occurs and corrects for both speaker and the room will not degrade the quality.

Further more when filtering can cause improvements in time domain even more gains are to be had in sound quality. Dirac Live is not just a glorified EQ that uses a mic to measure the room and correct accordingly.

That's the reason why I'm considering implementing Dirac Live and possibly active crossovers. Using linear phase or in case of Dirac Live mixed phased filters can help better control driver behaviour and limit distortion. Using linear phase is impossible using passive crossovers.

To answer Seemorebtts question. What I'm hoping to achieve would not only improve sound quality but also give me a very flexible solution. Flexible in a way that I could use my system in any room as long as I'd measure it and apply appropriate filters (doesn't take long). Flexible in a way that I could use virtually any pairing of equipment not worrying that it's not going to sound right. So I22 with EB2s, no problem. Big floorstanders in a small size room, sure why not. Flexible should I want a warm sound or a bright sound. You decide what sound suits you with applying correct filter. But most importantly it gives you an opportunity to "educate" your ears gradually going towards neutral.

Also from practical point of view (my wife's) I could have a system that costs a fraction of high end systems with great sound quality. Whether that's achievable at the budget I set out for this experiment is a different matter :)

Disclaimer
If any of my theory has holes or inaccuracies, please feel free to correct me. I'm only learning about this and don't pretend to be an expert. Cheers
I didn't mention anything about sound degrading in the digital domain due to use of DSP. It will happen in the mechanical domain when your midbass will start having nasty resonances because you adjusted for extra bass to fix a room null. Someone correct me if I'm wrong on this.
 

insider9

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2016
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Vladimir said:
I didn't mention anything about sound degrading in the digital domain due to use of DSP. It will happen in the mechanical domain when your midbass will start having nasty resonances because you adjusted for extra bass to fix a room null. Someone correct me if I'm wrong on this.
Fair enough, sorry misread what you were trying to say.

Yes, there's only so much that can be done. No way to to fix a null completely but I managed to deal with mine with shifting listening position. Dirac them (recalibrated) done the rest to excellent results.

And yes I agree, pushing a driver too hard to correct a null would do more harm than good and potentially could damage said driver.
 

luckylion100

New member
Nov 6, 2011
72
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0
matters is rather lacking but thought I'd dip my toes in again.

Getting my Dirac Live working to a point where I was happy with it took a little time and some real head scratching. Bear in mind though I'm still stuck in the basic Dirac Live automatically optimised curve. I've been busy toying with Raspberry pi this weekend.

I didn't think the Minidsp version is particularly clear, especially merging the two software elements (DDRC-24's and DIrac Live) programs together. First of all, and I know this may sound petty but they don't even resemble the same package in appearance. On the DDRC-24 software all you get re solid confirmation that Dirac Live is active and doing its stuff is an on screen on/off button. But once laptop and program are shutdown it's a case of taking their word for it and trusting your ears. I'd like something on the unit perhaps in future models to indicate this. I like rock solid visual confirmation too. Maybe higher up the componet price range this is something they employ?

As I mentioned in another thread i firstly focused on speakers placement. Something I hadn't even considered previously. This is because they sounded that good where they were and space, therefore placement choice is limited. However small adjustments were made and clear benefits were heard well before Dirac Live was even looked at.

My room I think is a total nightmare for acoustics but I'd require someone like Ellisdj to absolutely rubber stamp it, and then rub it in. ;-) Dirac Live made an immediate improvement, no expectation bias involved here it was clear. It did make the active sound, sound more active at first but it's massively influenced by the quality of the source material and the genre of music. I should also add that unlike Insider, I have at present a sub to intergrate and I think Dirac has done that rather well. When I move home there's a second sub to get out and add to the mix.

Over the past few weeks my system has had some big changes so I'm still getting used to the sound, sometimes it's different and slightly unfamiliar (not always better but never worse if that makes sense). I'm learning to love the Oppo, audio over bluetooth has astounded me (not my usual supply route) , heaps better than what the old Yamaha WXC-50 could produce. The Chromecast is ready for the bin (utter ****). Dirac Live and now a music server (Raspberry pi 3 with Rune) compiled over the weeked are to be added which will feed my Oppo when I get a board upgrade (for digital outputs) later this week.

I'm aware DSP, Actives and such are suddenly being spoken about on here and generally in a much better lfairer ight. people will continue to like/dislike as is their right but I've enjoyed these threads.

I still say that good source material not constantly upgrading components is everything...
 

insider9

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2016
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Yes, the positioning of the speakers is interesting. I found that in my room prior to dsp I nailed the positioning by ear (now confirmed by measurements). Once I used Dirac I found that bringing speakers much closer to a wall works best. They'd not sound good at all without dsp as such close proximity would make them boom. But dsp does a hell of a job attenuating the booming bass. Then correcting the sitting position helped me solve a null.

How are you connecting Oppo to DDRC-24 analogue or digital? Have you compared the results?
 

luckylion100

New member
Nov 6, 2011
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It's connected via analogue connections. In and out.

I think Ellisdj commented previously about where I was going to position the DDRC-24 in my chain suggesting perhaps any good work the Oppo dac added may be undone by the position of the Minidsp if postioned after. The thing was I wanted the Minidsp as the last link before the speakers because of the four rca outputs, because of the dual subs.

At the moment I'm off work due to serious illness, on the mend, have good and bad days and as of late crawling around on the floor and getting into all the nooks and crannies isn't overly appealing. So for now I've just left it as a analogue connection. Doing the measurements on Friday half killed me. ;-)

Now you've triggered my curiosity, I wonder if optical out from Oppo to Minidsp would be an improvement, one less cable anyway... For me at present though it would be a purely subjective test with some time delayed involved whilst switching the cables.
 

MajorFubar

New member
Mar 3, 2010
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Whatever you do I hope you find peace with your audio system. You do seem to have been searching a while and so I hope this latest venture works out for you.
 

insider9

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2016
1,018
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Sorry to hear about your health. Hope it's improving. Don't worry too much about testing this it's far from priority.

It will be interesting though whether there is a difference at all. If I was to guess there may be as you'd be avoiding analogue to digital conversion. Filters are applied in digital domain so passing fully digital signal to DDRC-24 may be beneficial.
 

insider9

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2016
1,018
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MajorFubar said:
Whatever you do I hope you find peace with your audio system. You do seem to have been searching a while and so I hope this latest venture works out for you.
Thank you, Major. Having been out of the loop for years I've rediscovered the hobby last year and it's been a crazy ride ever since. I guess I'm making up for lost time. The most ironic is that the closest I've ever been to what I'd call perfection I managed to undo in one simple ebay purchase. Another ironic thing is I may end up with EB2s sound after all. Just 4 or so months after :) But not too worry, technical aspect of the hobby is also very interesting. Live and learn. I still enjoy listening to music which is most important whether it being speakers or headphones.

EDIT

Things are getting exciting ordered Sony STR-DB930. Now we'll see what all the fuss is about. Should have it by Thursday :)
 

luckylion100

New member
Nov 6, 2011
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thanks for the kind wishes, appreciated.

I'm waiting on a couple of cables for the JustBoom Digital Audio Output Add-On Board I've ordered for my Raspberry pi3 and think I can keep it digital all the way up to the DDRC-24. My turntable isn't getting a look in at the moment so no ADC required there. Saving for other toys has meant my record purchasing has come to a grinding halt for the time being.

Talking of the Sony DB930 I'm positive I had one way back, in say 2001/2 just before my daughter came along, if it's the same model I'm thinking of... unique remote with screen. Loved it and it was the best thing I owned at the time by a country mile.
 

Vladimir

New member
Dec 26, 2013
220
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luckylion100 said:
thanks for the kind wishes, appreciated.

I'm waiting on a couple of cables for the JustBoom Digital Audio Output Add-On Board I've ordered for my Raspberry pi3 and think I can keep it digital all the way up to the DDRC-24. My turntable isn't getting a look in at the moment so no ADC required there. Saving for other toys has meant my record purchasing has come to a grinding halt for the time being.

Talking of the Sony DB930 I'm positive I had one way back, in say 2001/2 just before my daughter came along, if it's the same model I'm thinking of... unique remote with screen. Loved it and it was the best thing I owned at the time by a country mile.
That's the one. A 110Wpc budget receiver flooded with Nichicon Gold caps like no high-end amp ever was. 15,000uF Nichicon main filter caps, thick speaker cables for the terminals, AKM DAC, Alps volume pot, discrete output trannies. A real oddity.



 

ellisdj

New member
Dec 11, 2008
377
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I am behind this thread - sorry guys.

A couple of things I have noticed going through it - what you see in green from dirac as a post filters applied correction is an average for the 9 points you measure

3 things to consider there

- 1 is if your cross referencing 1 REW point measured vs 9 its going to be different

2 - when you took the measurements how big an area did you cover in terms of mic placement - I think that is important.

3 - your bass null is likely the seating position more than the speakers position.

Looking at something Vlad said - there are no small well behaved rooms, none - if you put the dimensions of all small rooms into a mode calculator then you see that. Its doesnt exist. Bass waves are huge so the room needs to be huge too

Insider - now you have some REW measurements now is the time to actually look at your room and assess what its like.

You want to measure relatively loud - 75 - 80db at least or I suppose the volume you listen at. Then you want to check your waterfall, rt60 plots to see how live your room is and how much decay there is. That could be killing things or you might be lucky

Post up pictures of them and we can go through it
 

insider9

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2016
1,018
511
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ellisdj said:
I am behind this thread - sorry guys.

A couple of things I have noticed going through it - what you see in green from dirac as a post filters applied correction is an average for the 9 points you measure

3 things to consider there

- 1 is if your cross referencing 1 REW point measured vs 9 its going to be different

2 - when you took the measurements how big an area did you cover in terms of mic placement - I think that is important.

3 - your bass null is likely the seating position more than the speakers position.

Looking at something Vlad said - there are no small well behaved rooms, none - if you put the dimensions of all small rooms into a mode calculator then you see that.  Its doesnt exist.  Bass waves are huge so the room needs to be huge too 

Insider - now you have some REW measurements now is the time to actually look at your room and assess what its like.

You want to measure relatively loud - 75 - 80db at least or I suppose the volume you listen at.  Then you want to check your waterfall, rt60 plots to see how live your room is and how much decay there is.  That could be killing things or you might be lucky

Post up pictures of them and we can go through it
Thanks Ellisdj! To address some of your points.

1) It makes more sense although I've read that Dirac applies 1/8th smoothing.

2) That's where I was going wrong to start with. Too few measurements. The change to all 9 measurements was huge. I'm covering an armchair size area. That's my listening spot. Pain in the a** to do them accurately. Good job I have a stand. My floor looks like crime scene now with many numbered stickers :)

3) That's now much improved as I did move my listening position.

In the end I measured relatively loud. Decay time pre Dirac was at most 500ms at troublesome frequencies but improved by circa 100ms post Dirac.

I'll post some pictures later. Thanks again.
 

drummerman

New member
Jan 18, 2008
540
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Vladimir said:
luckylion100 said:
thanks for the kind wishes, appreciated.

I'm waiting on a couple of cables for the JustBoom Digital Audio Output Add-On Board I've ordered for my Raspberry pi3 and think I can keep it digital all the way up to the DDRC-24. My turntable isn't getting a look in at the moment so no ADC required there. Saving for other toys has meant my record purchasing has come to a grinding halt for the time being.

Talking of the Sony DB930 I'm positive I had one way back, in say 2001/2 just before my daughter came along, if it's the same model I'm thinking of... unique remote with screen. Loved it and it was the best thing I owned at the time by a country mile.
That's the one. A 110Wpc budget receiver flooded with Nichicon Gold caps like no high-end amp ever was. 15,000uF Nichicon main filter caps, thick speaker cables for the terminals, AKM DAC, Alps volume pot, discrete output trannies. A real oddity.
Yes. You can easily remove both the S-Video and Radio boards if not needed.
 

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