Speakers for Devialet 170

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davedotco

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Beautiful morning, well here in west London anyway. Definitely a 'bat first' sort of day.

I have mentioned in other threads, that I think that there are a few products that are truly 'special' and genuinely elevate the state of the art.

The Devialet amplifiers are the only things that I have heard in recent times that are in that class and over the years Sonus Faber have hit those heights more regularly than any speaker manufacturer that I know.

Cremona Auditor M are my current favourite in terms of price/performance ratio and with the new Olympica models now coming through there might even be a few pairs of Cremonas at reduced prices.
 

matt49

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davedotco said:
Beautiful morning, well here in west London anyway. Definitely a 'bat first' sort of day.

I have mentioned in other threads, that I think that there are a few products that are truly 'special' and genuinely elevate the state of the art.

The Devialet amplifiers are the only things that I have heard in recent times that are in that class and over the years Sonus Faber have hit those heights more regularly than any speaker manufacturer that I know.

Cremona Auditor M are my current favourite in terms of price/performance ratio and with the new Olympica models now coming through there might even be a few pairs of Cremonas at reduced prices.

It certainly won't be swinging this morning. Time to tuck in.

Have you heard the Vivids? I know some people put them in their 'special' category.

You're right about the pricing of the Cremonas; there are some very attractive offers around.
 

matt49

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Today’s was an interesting and useful if not especially exciting demo, at least not compared to the Vivids on Tuesday. Maybe I’m getting picky. Maybe the Dev 170 is so revealing that it makes the shortcomings of speakers very clear. Or maybe I’m discovering that the Dev has trouble driving some speakers (which was the dealer’s view). I suspect it’s a combination of 1 and 2.

So three floorstanders on the menu, again powered by the Dev 170.

ProAc D30R

It was immediately clear that the ProAcs have a grown- up and mellow presentation. The top end seemed slightly veiled, and the overall tone quite dark (‘smoky’). And there seemed to be a slight lack of attack. I found myself turning up the pot up to get more attack, but it wasn't there.

Having said that, the more subtle effects were very attractive. The ProAcs gave a great impression of the acoustics of the recording space. I hesitate to call it airiness, because these seemed to be quite low frequency reverberations: the faint echo of a voice or instrument in the studio. This was especially clear on a jazz track, where everything suddenly fell into place. I suppose jazz, by its nature, is less about attack.

The three pairs of speakers were arranged side by side, with the ProAcs in the middle, so there was less space between the ProAcs and a correspondingly narrower soundstage, though I wouldn’t call this a problem.

I thought I could hear something slightly coloured in the upper mid-range, which gave a slight hint of artificiality with strings and piano. Perhaps a touch of boxiness? Having said that, male voices felt very lifelike, as did the lower end of the female range, whereas the upper end suffered ever so slightly from this boxy coloration again. (The dealer thought this was the Dev’s fault; he said the ProAcs were hard to drive and the Dev wasn’t getting the most out of them. I’m not so sure.)

One big plus about the ProAcs, and I think a contributor to their overall sense of musicality, was that deep bass notes (e.g. bass guitars) had real bounce. The bass went deep and hit the sternum, was quite warm in tone, but also had very little overhang. Very nice indeed.

B&W 804D

My first impression was of the wider frequency range, both up top and at the bottom (that may sound surprising after what I just said about the ProAcs’ bass; more to say on this below.)

Those diamond tweeters certainly give plenty of bite at top end. At first I enjoyed it, but by the end of the demo I found it fatiguing. Along with bite, I heard spit (with vocals) and fizz (with hi-hats). Strings felt a touch too metallic.

On the positive side, the B&Ws produced great separation of instruments and perhaps a better sense of scale than the ProAcs with orchestral music.

The tone of the mid-range struck me as excellent. Obviously B&Ws’ the overall tonal balance is higher than Proacs. As well as spit, vocals suffered from a bit too much breathiness. But there was none of the boxiness I found in the ProAcs’ mid-range.

Back to the bass. The bass of the B&Ws felt deeper, but it also felt less musical; it had less bounce and kick.

Anyway, in a sense this is all academic, as the hard top end isn’t something I could love with. I had the same experience when I heard them being driven by the MF AMS35i. I thought the smoother treble of the Dev might tame the B&Ws; perhaps it did a little, but not enough.

PMC Fact 8

I’d also heard these with the AMS35i and quite liked them. In this demo they were a bit less less impressive.

They’re very fast speakers. They do transients really well. Also of all three pairs of boxes they gave the best account of the soprano scale: tremendously pure, ethereally so. But I suspect the quality of high female voices was an artefact of the overall lack of balance, compared to the other speakers.

The sound of the Fact 8s seemed to me quite a bit smaller than that of the ProAcs and B&Ws. I grant my mind may have been playing tricks on me: when you look at a slender design like this, with its petite drivers, you just think: narrow speaker, narrow sound. Of course it may also be true that the relatively small size of the bass drivers in the PMCs does prevent them from producing the same scale as the other boxes.

Conclusions

I think the ProAcs are worth another demo, although they didn’t utterly blow me away. I went back to them briefly at the end of the demo, and if anything they'd grown on me. All three speakers are good (OK, I have problems with the B&Ws), and they have areas where they’re strong. I could imagine listening to the PMCs for female vocals and some pop, the B&Ws for orchestral music (in short bursts), and the ProAcs for jazz, acoustic and chamber music.

When I said the demo was useful, I meant that at the very least it’s going to serve as a range-finder. Because these speakers are pretty common (esp. the PMCs and B&Ws) I’ll be able to hear them alongside other speakers in future and use them for comparison.
 

CnoEvil

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I had a feeling that would be your order of preference. It's great you know exactly what you like, but the downside is that it is so specific, that very few speakers will give it to you.

FWIW. I have found that the AMS35i has a way of making any speaker it is attached to, sound great......it's the only time I've enjoyed Focal on the end of a SS amp.
 

Macspur

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Hi Matt,

Thanks for the usual eloquent review.

Have you ever heard any other ProAcs? such as the D18 or 28.

So after discounting the B&W and PMC, what's up next?

Mac
 

CnoEvil

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If the Proacs make it to the semi-final, listen to them with no other speakers in the room, just in case this is having an effect.

Before the advent of AV (25+ years ago), it was seen as very poor form if a dealer left any other speakers in the room during the demo, as they can "play along".....and since you are very sensitive to what you are hearing, it's possible that this is subtly throwing things off by just enough to stop you being "utterly blown away."

This would of apply to any speaker that is nearly perfect for you, but it won't of course change its fundamental character.
 

Macspur

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CnoEvil said:
If the Proacs make it to the semi-final, listen to them with no other speakers in the room, just in case this is having an effect.

Before the advent of AV (25+ years ago), it was seen as very poor form if a dealer left any other speakers in the room during the demo, as they can "play along".....and since you are very sensitive to what you are hearing, it's possible that this is subtly throwing things off by just enough to stop you being "utterly blown away."

This would of apply to any speaker that is nearly perfect for you, but it won't of course change its fundamental character.

Agreed and you certainly wouldn't want them side by side.

Mac
 

Singslinger

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I've actually heard Vivid speakers - fantastic sound, driven by German amps (I can't recall the name, sorry). No issues with their sound...their looks though, are an acquired taste IMO.
 

matt49

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Singslinger said:
I've actually heard Vivid speakers - fantastic sound, driven by German amps (I can't recall the name, sorry). No issues with their sound...their looks though, are an acquired taste IMO.

Hi Singslinger.

Good to hear you confirm my thoughts about the Vivids.

As for the looks, I think we can agree they're not meh.

Matt
 

matt49

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CnoEvil said:
Before the advent of AV (25+ years ago), it was seen as very poor form if a dealer left any other speakers in the room during the demo, as they can "play along".....

Macspur said:
Agreed and you certainly wouldn't want them side by side.

Mac

Thanks for your advice and support.

I absolutely agree that standing speakers side by side is a no-no. Best not to have any large objects (whatever they are) directly impinging on the acoustic space of the speakers that are playing. I think the PMCs in particular suffered from this yesterday, but no matter, as I'm bound to hear them again on my travels.

I'm aware of the old "no other transducers in the room" theory. You'll have to forgive me if I doubt whether this is a real effect.

Next up probably Kudos. Also on the horizon loads of other Greek- and Latin-named speakers: Neat Ultimatums (Ultimata?), Audiovector Avantgarde Arreté*, Dali Epicons (Epica?) ...

There will be a short hiatus (Latin). My Dev hasn't arrived yet, as the (French) factory shut down for August of course, so my plan to take the Dev with me on my demo travels has been scotched (Scottish).

:cheers:

Matt

* 'Arreté' is very poor: a garbling of French 'arrêté' ('stopped', 'halted': don't think they meant this), and Anc. Greek 'arete' ('excellence'), which is presumably what they had in mind. Not quite as bad as 'Diageo' though ...

EDITED: punctuation!
 

bluebrazil

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so my plan to take the Dev with me on my demo travels has been scotched (Scottish).

the only scottish part of that is that the deviant french may have a wee dram after their red wine when enjoying time off work. :beer: long live the auld alliance >)
 

James7

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matt49 said:
James7 said:
Devialet use Vivid loudspeakers to demonstrate their amps

I hear the Devialet parent company has invested in Vivid, presumably with a view to a partnership or even merger/acquisition?

ah - interesting. Well, perhaps that explains the synergy. I imagine Dev have been using Vivid loudspeakers in developiing the 170 et al. It will be interesting to hear how they go as and when you get them up against some Sonus fabers. Could you get past their looks though?
 

CnoEvil

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James7 said:
Could you get past their looks though?

They somehow just remind me of "The Scream".

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/17lfv79qkou0ljpg/original.jpg&imgrefurl=http://gizmodo.com/5907217/the-scream-is-officially-the-worlds-most-absurdly-overpriced-painting&h=540&w=960&sz=65&tbnid=Ud_wE6n7K-8i2M:&tbnh=75&tbnw=134&zoom=1&usg=__WnmXbHAG7maCYGKeS9pozTOstwk=&docid=VFSiBCv2ChnWvM&sa=X&ei=M-0gUv-TJIu10wXB9YCwAw&ved=0CGYQ9QEwBQ&dur=528
 

matt49

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CnoEvil said:
James7 said:
Could you get past their looks though?

They somehow just remind me of "The Scream".

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/17lfv79qkou0ljpg/original.jpg&imgrefurl=http://gizmodo.com/5907217/the-scream-is-officially-the-worlds-most-absurdly-overpriced-painting&h=540&w=960&sz=65&tbnid=Ud_wE6n7K-8i2M:&tbnh=75&tbnw=134&zoom=1&usg=__WnmXbHAG7maCYGKeS9pozTOstwk=&docid=VFSiBCv2ChnWvM&sa=X&ei=M-0gUv-TJIu10wXB9YCwAw&ved=0CGYQ9QEwBQ&dur=528

Just need to paint some eyes on the front of the Vivids and stick a washing up glove on each side. Job done.

I think I could live with the looks, if Mrs49 could. Obvs she hasn't seen them yet. A long way to go before a decision and no point in alarming her for nothing.

Next week, by way of contrast, I plan to demo some indisputably pretty speakers. Yep, the Olympicas have come to town ...

Sonus-faber-Olympica-I.jpg
 

davedotco

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Now you're talking really dirty........ :shame:

Before I got my big Martin Logan panels I had Electa Amators on a pair of Peter Sopers' excellent slate stands.

Of all the equipment that passes through my hands these are probably the items I wish I had kept, above everything else.

174000.jpg
 

Macspur

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matt49 said:
CnoEvil said:
James7 said:
Could you get past their looks though?

They somehow just remind me of "The Scream".

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/17lfv79qkou0ljpg/original.jpg&imgrefurl=http://gizmodo.com/5907217/the-scream-is-officially-the-worlds-most-absurdly-overpriced-painting&h=540&w=960&sz=65&tbnid=Ud_wE6n7K-8i2M:&tbnh=75&tbnw=134&zoom=1&usg=__WnmXbHAG7maCYGKeS9pozTOstwk=&docid=VFSiBCv2ChnWvM&sa=X&ei=M-0gUv-TJIu10wXB9YCwAw&ved=0CGYQ9QEwBQ&dur=528

Just need to paint some eyes on the front of the Vivids and stick a washing up glove on each side. Job done.

I think I could live with the looks, if Mrs49 could. Obvs she hasn't seen them yet. A long way to go before a decision and no point in alarming her for nothing.

Next week, by way of contrast, I plan to demo some indisputably pretty speakers. Yep, the Olympicas have come to town ...

Sonus-faber-Olympica-I.jpg

Really looking forward to your impressions of those beauties

smiley-smile.gif


Mac
 

matt49

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As you’ll know if you’ve been reading my tedious posts, I was rather taken with the Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor Ms on the end of the Devialet 170. The “M” versions replaced the original Cremonas four years ago. They’ve now reached the end of their life and are making way for the Olympica range, which was launched in Munich in May and first reached our shores a couple of weeks ago. SF dealers who have remaining stock of Cremonas are offering some tasty deals. So I thought it’d be instructive (OK, make that “fun”) to compare the outgoing with the incoming ranges.

The system was a Mac playing ALAC files via Ethernet into the Dev 170. Standmounts appeared first, followed by floorstanders.

SF Cremona Auditor M

Nothing much to add to my earlier posts on this speaker. Fast, coherent, sweet and natural sounding. The bass is tuneful and extends fairly low for a box this size The combo with the Dev is, I think, bewitching. There’s plenty of attack, but the overriding impression of the top end is glassily smooth. Smallish box, big sound.

SF Olympica I

What a shock! The tonal balance was utterly different: far brighter and crisper. On the positive side, the treble had greater transparency and the bass was more controlled. Overall I found quite a bit more drama. The stereo image was considerably more precise. But within about ten minutes I began to find the brightness wearing. Weird and unexpected.

SF Cremona M

These are three-way floorstanders with two woofers and two rear ports, one for the mid-range driver, one for the woofers.

Returning to the Cremona range from the Olympica standmounts, the less precise stereo image was obvious. But it was also something of a relief to return to a smoother top end, though one might argue it's a touch veiled in comparison with the Auditors. In fact, I wasn’t at all persuaded that the floorstanders were worth trading up for as against the standmounts.

The floorstanders have essentially the same character as the Auditors. Surprisingly the extra bass extension doesn’t at first seem to bring a great deal to the party. What I mean is the sound didn't feel much weightier, even in large scale music. What I did feel was that the resonance of the recording space came across more clearly.

If anything, the bass was actually a little squidgy. On the positive side, it’s an overall presentation that’s very easy to like.

SF Olympica II

These new floorstanders differ from the Cremonas in having only one woofer. Whereas the Cremonas are rear-ported, the Olympicas have a vertical slot port running down the whole length of the inside edge of the box. Because the port fires sideways, they should be more tolerant of being placed close to a back wall.

My first thought was that they seemed to image slightly less well than the Olympica Is. That was with a solo violin piece, but when I moved on to large-scale and complex stuff, the tables were turned and the imaging seemed utterly marvellous.

But the most striking thing was the complete lack of the brightness that bothered me in the Olympica Is, despite the fact that both speakers use the same tweeter. It’s possible that the standmounts hadn’t been run in for long enough: the dealer said they’d had over 100 hours, whereas the floorstanders had had over 200. I wonder. But really chalk and cheese …

The top end of the Olympica IIs was still very sweet and, I think, clearer than the Cremonas. Voices were strikingly present. And despite having only one woofer, compared to the Cremonas’ two, they created a great sense of space. I played a chunk of Janacek’s From the House of the Dead: wow! Just spine-chillingly dramatic. The speakers managed to recreate the recording space with amazing naturalness and plenty of dynamics.

I’d say the bass had more texture too.

Conclusions

The Cremonas are lovely speakers. My choice would be the standmounts for their precision and cohesiveness. The floorstanders are excellent speakers, but the extra depth doesn't outweigh the loss of cohesiveness and speed.

There’s a question mark about the Olympica standmounts. I feel inclined to cut them some slack and leave them in the competition.

The Olympica floorstanders seem to me worth spending good money (ahem!) on. Thinking back to my demo of the B&Ws, ProAcs and PMCs, the Olympicas are miles ahead. Will they work in my room? I definitely need to find out.

Some surprises, then, but it was a jolly good day.
 

CnoEvil

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matt49 said:
The Olympica floorstanders seem to me worth spending good money (ahem!) on. Thinking back to my demo of the B&Ws, ProAcs and PMCs, the Olympicas are miles ahead. Will they work in my room? I definitely need to find out.

Some surprises, then, but it was a jolly good day.

It's always good to hear how you get on.

It's a very slippery slope, but an enjoyable and interesting (and expensive) one.
 

matt49

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CnoEvil said:
It's always good to hear how you get on.

It's a very slippery slope, but an enjoyable and interesting (and expensive) one.

Macspur said:
Never tedious Matt.

Thanks again for such an enjoyably insightful review of the SF range.

What's up next?

Mac

Thanks for your support, guys.

Next week I have the Neat XL range and some Kudos and Focals. However, here we get into choppy waters, as I'll be demoing with dealers who don't stock Dev (my Dev still hasn't arrived from France), so I'll be dependent on other amplification. I plan to soldier on anyway, as I've got quite a few more speakers to get through.

The Dev + SF bandwagon seems to be gaining momentum on other fora. No great surprise, as both brands are distributed in the UK by Absolute Sounds, so most dealers who stock one will also carry the other. Still, a very persuasive pairing.

:cheers:

Matt
 

BernardLanguillier

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Judging how well my pair of Wilson Benesch Vector work with my D-Premier, I would recommend either them or the bookshelf Vertex.

Those speakers are incredibly under-rated, I haven't heard anything better among "reasonnably priced" offerings.

Cheers,
Bernard
 

matt49

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BernardLanguillier said:
Judging how well my pair of Wilson Benesch Vector work with my D-Premier, I would recommend either them or the bookshelf Vertex.

Those speakers are incredibly under-rated, I haven't heard anything better among "reasonnably priced" offerings.

Cheers,
Bernard

Bernard,

thanks for the suggestions. WB do look intriguing, though they're hard to find. The Vectors are a bit over budget. I'll see if I can hunt down a pair of the Vertexes.

:cheers:

Matt
 

davedotco

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Morning Matt, interesting as always.

Given the current pricing of the Cremona Auditors I know where my money would be going in your position, I have become pretty tightfisted since leaving the trade, and they have been a favourite of mine for some time.

Do you not get the tiniest bit tempted to 'grab yourself a bargain' whilst there are still some brand new models about?
 

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