speakers for an A class amp

[Anonymous]

I run my amp in class A mode (it has a switch allowing you to choose between class AB and class A). Class A is about 15W per channel and works absolutely fine with the RX6, no distortion at any volume you would actually want to listen at.

Does it sound very different when you switch from AB to pure A class?

I'd say the difference is subtle but noticeable when you know the system, a little bit richer in class A, improvement is really in the mid range with horns and vocals in particular.

 

[acalex]

How did you find it? Why you decided to change?

It would be great if you could hook me up with the dealer indeed, thanks a lot!

As I was writing in my previous posts.. Inpol2 is intoxicating.. There is no way any one can describe in words.. having said that it does (very slight tad) over do.. but in a good way.. That is where the partnering comes.. I mean if I had floor standing speakers, may be the Inpol2 would have added much larger grandness but nevertheless it is still awesome..

Unfortuantely HiFi is not the only hobby and with Mrs WishTree there is a considerable change in the listening times.. A decent Home Theatre system took priority as the center speaker was missed alot.. and my own learning about overhyped DACs etc, put me towards the practical direction of what I have now..

I want to share my thoughts about upgrade path.. since I have done a lot of upgrade (by any standards) during last few years

In my experience.. it is the synergy of all the components that makes the difference.. I once had a Parasound C2, A21 with my Proac and it sounded very best on the first instance, great combination.. where as on longer listening sessions I realized the width is missing.. but it is only a minor.. This is just an example.. there are various things that could tilt the scales..

So.. my suggestion is decide on the speakers first.. First reason is that they effect the sound more than any other component, imho, and second reason is since they are the bulkiest, it is better to have them narrowed down first.. This is like 50% done..

Then of course the amplifier.. Class A / Valves / Monoblocks etc are exotic which offer more amount of personality but there are flip sides too.. like large power consumption, excessive heat generation, valves may need replacement, too bulky and occupy a lot of space.. but it is easier to experiment with.. which is like 45%. If I have to chose Integrated vs pre/power, I would go for the later route. Ideally, in my world, all pres should have a DAC builtin!

then the rest is the source / dac.. this is one hyped product area as per me.. of course a matching CD player to the amp makes a great sense as they are really tuned together (like the Marantz Pearl) but otherwise it only boils down to fine tuning.. no matter how great a DAC is perceived, with out the true match between the amp & speakers , the whole system will end up sounding bad proably..

The dealer that I work with is called Projekt Akustik. (http://www.projekt-akustik.de/) I interact with Tobias.. he speaks English too and is very knowledgable. You can take their number from the website, give a call and ask for Tobias.. It should be that easy, I guess! ( I hope I am not breaking any house rules here, by giving a dealer's name. If so, please let me know )

Thanks a lot for sharing your experience, I really appreciate that! I must hear this Inpol 2 then...it will be used ONLY for music...and my gf also loves good music..!

Ouch...the dealer is unfortunately the other side of Germany...I live in Belgium and from Brussels is way too far....thanks a lot anyway

 

[paradiziac]

So.. my suggestion is decide on the speakers first.. First reason is that they effect the sound more than any other component, imho, and second reason is since they are the bulkiest, it is better to have them narrowed down first.. This is like 50% done..

Interesting insights. A lot of people say speakers first, but I went for the amp first. Advantage of this is that it's easier to carry your amp around to demo different speakers than the other way around. Then when you think you've found a winning combo, home demo.

I found that a better amp generally improves almost any speaker--you can't have too much amplifier quality or power even if it's not all needed. On the other hand, better more revealing speakers can make inferior electronics sound worse. Maybe the amp doesn't drive the speakers properly and the result is un-engaging and maybe even less musical than an iPod or the car stereo.

So if you can't upgrade your whole system for a while, it's generally easier to live with the better amp/worse speakers than the better speakers/worse amp.

 

[acalex]

Well, I found out a shop in Brussels (quite big) which has many brands and also Musical Fidelity! I spent there some time and talked to the owner who was very knowedgeable and indeed had great words to spend on the MF AMS35i. He said to book a proper demo session because the AMS needs 1h to warm up properly. So next week I will book a proper demo session with my speakers +rDAC + pc.

He also suggested me (since I mainly listen to jazz, acoustic, classic, light old rock) to look at full tube amps since they can't be beaten in terms of details and natural sound. He said he will connect also an Audio Research one during the demo (i think the VSI60 but I am not sure) to show me what he's talking about...so I am really looking forward to this.

Also we ended up talking about DAC and he has one of my old loves...the M2Tech Young! He said this is with no doubt the best DAC at this price range and he outperforms most of the more expensive DACs....so I suggested him to include this one in the demo as well...I am sure I will spend a lot and end up buying the amp AND the DAC!

How do you feel the ARC VSi60? Anybody has an extensive experience on tubes? I think I am going to have fun... :dance:

 

[altruistic.lemon]

No offence, but I'd agree with the poster who suggested getting the speakers right first. It could be the RX6s aren't for you. so, when you do the demo, ask to listen to some decent speakers, too.

 

[CnoEvil]

Yeah.. I was feeling that the amp deserves a better home and I could not possibly integrate the Inpol2 with a center speaker (Thanks to Mrs. WishTree, 80:20 music to movies has become 50:50!)

I have tried few power amps, the multi channel ones. Like the Rotel 1075, Audiolab 8000X7 and few others.. Also it was tough to compare the sound especially given Inpol2.. but the Arcam is wonderful.. It is brutally powerful but has a great control.. The warmth of the amp matches with the sweetness of Proacs. Though time to time, I think a floorstanding version of Proac might add to the scale..

Overall.. very happy with the change and new owner of Inpol2 is just like all of us.. very passionate and exctied.. I am glad the Pathos went to the home it truly deserved!

IMO. I think you have ended up with one of the very few AV power amps that you could live with after the Inpol.
In case it ever turns out to be of interest in the future, the newer Arcam P777 is a good step up from the P7. It uses the same Class G amp technology as the AVR600 (which has a lot of the Class A "genome" about the sound), except it is even better.
IMO The AVR600 sounds better than the AV9 + P7, but the AV888 +P777 takes it to another level again, with the P777 being a real star.

Cno

 

[paradiziac]

I think it's a good decision to listen to other types of amps as well--at least then you'll be more comfortable with whatever your final decision is having learned about the pros/cons of each and about how they suit your taste.

The Young DAC is no doubt very good...but don't forget the new award winning Audiolab M-DAC that's just hitting the streets, which is cheaper and maybe even better than the Young, with a built in pre-amp and remote control to boot!

 

[paradiziac]

No offence, but I'd agree with the poster who suggested getting the speakers right first. It could be the RX6s aren't for you. so, when you do the demo, ask to listen to some decent speakers, too.

I guess he's going to buy a complete new system soon

 

[CnoEvil]

Hi. I used to have Pathos Inpol2 but for convenience, I have a different set up. As I am based out of Germany, I can hook you up to the Pathos dealer that I dealt with , if you are interested.

....you did that on the quiet. :O How are you getting on with your new system? Are you missing the Inpol? Cno

Cno, difficult question...how do you think the Audio Note Soro SE would compare with the MF AMS35i and the Inpol2? In ideal conditions (meaning matching with right speakers which I might upgrade next year around Xmas already). As I am doing an investment for the future I would like to assess all different options!

Thanks again

You have a real gift for difficult questions!

IMO Audio Note works best in an all AN system, from TT or CDP/DAC to Amp to Speakers and even cables. If I only listened to 2 channel, and didn't want to stream, this is the system I would have. Taking bits of an AN system and inserting them in other systems, is very hit and miss.

I once tried one of their NOS DACS in my system (2.1x signature I think), but preferred the sound of the Majik DS.

I would guess that the 35i would be a better match for your speakers, but you will know when you hear it for yourself.

I'm greatly looking forward to hearing your views on all these wonderful amps. I'm not aware of anyone on here that has even heard my amp.....it takes courage to spend so much money on 35W, but take it from me, it sounds more like 200W. :bounce:

Cno

 

[acalex]

No offence, but I'd agree with the poster who suggested getting the speakers right first. It could be the RX6s aren't for you. so, when you do the demo, ask to listen to some decent speakers, too.

I guess he's going to buy a complete new system soon

No, my decision is made on this point...no speakers for now!!! I will listen to some better speaker for sure...but not for now definitely! I might end up getting the Young DAC though if I reallyyyyyyyy like :rockout:

 

[acalex]

Hi. I used to have Pathos Inpol2 but for convenience, I have a different set up. As I am based out of Germany, I can hook you up to the Pathos dealer that I dealt with , if you are interested.

....you did that on the quiet. :O How are you getting on with your new system? Are you missing the Inpol? Cno

Cno, difficult question...how do you think the Audio Note Soro SE would compare with the MF AMS35i and the Inpol2? In ideal conditions (meaning matching with right speakers which I might upgrade next year around Xmas already). As I am doing an investment for the future I would like to assess all different options!

Thanks again

You have a real gift for difficult questions! ....

I know... >)

 

[CnoEvil]

Interesting insights. A lot of people say speakers first, but I went for the amp first. Advantage of this is that it's easier to carry your amp around to demo different speakers than the other way around. Then when you think you've found a winning combo, home demo.

I found that a better amp generally improves almost any speaker--you can't have too much amplifier quality or power even if it's not all needed. On the other hand, better more revealing speakers can make inferior electronics sound worse. Maybe the amp doesn't drive the speakers properly and the result is un-engaging and maybe even less musical than an iPod or the car stereo.

So if you can't upgrade your whole system for a while, it's generally easier to live with the better amp/worse speakers than the better speakers/worse amp.

I have sympathy for this logic. Revealing speakers can sound remarkably different depending on what amp they are connected to. I hated the sound when I connected a Moon i7 into my system.

I too would rather have an expensive amp + cheaper speakers, than the other way round. If the speakers are too good for the rest of the system, all they do is show up any weaknesses. I suspect most people don't realize how good their speakers can sound when maximized.

I think the OP needs to go to the demo with a completely open mind and no preconceptions, and just see how things work out. I suspect he will be amazed at the performance potential of his existing speakers....but that is a preconception! :shifty:

 

[WishTree]

IMO The AVR600 sounds better than the AV9 + P7, but the AV888 +P777 takes it to another level again, with the P777 being a real star. Cno

Thanks Cno! I am almost always skeptical about a Receiver bettering an pre/pro. However, this might be THE exception, as I remember hearing the AVR600 one time at a demo and it easily beats the MF M6i even on stereo performance.. I am only concerned about the AVR600's issues which got too much unwanted attention on the forum!

Coming back to the OP - AN, MF & Pathos are very very different.. The way I remember.. AN (Soro) is quite warm and very wonderful midrange on my Proac. I would not want to play Rock on them.. MF M6 was quite a disappointment.. the older A series was good.. but they all are very fast and very neutral, some times to the extent of clinical.. Pathos Inpol2 (as well as Logos to some extent) have a great mid range, can be used for wider musical choices and they have some thing special.. but I was suggested by cno that Conrad Johnson is a great brand to look up in this space..

I am sure your speakers are already very good but please do not go buying an amp now with the expecation to change the speakers in next 6 months or so. Narrow down both and may be you can buy one at a time but audtion the speaker + amp as one component (Believe me - It always starts like that.. we want the next upgrade to happen in one year later or so but the hobby takes over and a month down the line we are again auditioning the new ones May be it is far fetched but there is some truth, neverthelss)

The Young DAC must be really good.. all the dealers that talked to went considerable lengths in telling me how good it is!

 

[acalex]

Thanks guys for all the advices. I think I will stick to Pathos, MF AMS35i and Soro SE to start. Plus the tube amp that the dealer suggested which I will be auditioning next week. Still no reply from Sudgen, sent an email few days ago, nobody got back to me so far.
Cno, at this point, do you think the Masterclass I4 is worth a try? Or compared to the others I have on the list already it is nothing close? Contacted the dealer but he didn't get back to me yet...

Any advice on tube amps? The dealer today said that given the kind of music I listen mainly, I would enjoy a lot a nice tube and proposed the Audio Research VSi60...

 

[acalex]

Interesting insights. A lot of people say speakers first, but I went for the amp first. Advantage of this is that it's easier to carry your amp around to demo different speakers than the other way around. Then when you think you've found a winning combo, home demo.

I found that a better amp generally improves almost any speaker--you can't have too much amplifier quality or power even if it's not all needed. On the other hand, better more revealing speakers can make inferior electronics sound worse. Maybe the amp doesn't drive the speakers properly and the result is un-engaging and maybe even less musical than an iPod or the car stereo.

So if you can't upgrade your whole system for a while, it's generally easier to live with the better amp/worse speakers than the better speakers/worse amp.

I have sympathy for this logic. Revealing speakers can sound remarkably different depending on what amp they are connected to. I hated the sound when I connected a Moon i7 into my system. I too would rather have an expensive amp + cheaper speakers, than the other way round. If the speakers are too good for the rest of the system, all they do is show up any weaknesses. I suspect most people don't realize how good their speakers can sound when maximized. I think the OP needs to go to the demo with a completely open mind and no preconceptions, and just see how things work out. I suspect he will be amazed at the performance potential of his existing speakers....but that is a preconception! :shifty:

I actually would like to have expensive amp and expensive speakers...but I can't buy all together...that's why I prefer to start from amp and fully enjoy my speakers for now...than for sure I will start looking at speakers next year probably, but since it is an hobby it's a lot of fun to go out, try, discuss, come back, seek for advice on the forum and share your experience...I find it very nice!

Just opened my company (5 months) so need to cash in a little bit before being able to spend more...lot of expenses when you work on your own...but on the long time it is absolutely great!

 

[acalex]

IMO The AVR600 sounds better than the AV9 + P7, but the AV888 +P777 takes it to another level again, with the P777 being a real star. Cno

.....

I am sure your speakers are already very good but please do not go buying an amp now with the expecation to change the speakers in next 6 months or so. Narrow down both and may be you can buy one at a time but audtion the speaker + amp as one component (Believe me - It always starts like that.. we want the next upgrade to happen in one year later or so but the hobby takes over and a month down the line we are again auditioning the new ones May be it is far fetched but there is some truth, neverthelss)

The Young DAC must be really good.. all the dealers that talked to went considerable lengths in telling me how good it is!

Actually was thinking next Xmas...something like Sonus Faber...but again I need to pick up the amp to match speakers....but which speakers would you suggest to use when I demo the AMS35i and the Audio Research (a part from trying mine of course...) :twisted:

They have the following speaker brands:

RevelBC AcoustiqueDynaudioMissionDaliTriangleTannoyMordaunt ShortB&WProacFocalSonus FaberWilson AudioRELAvalon

Revel

BC Acoustique

Dynaudio

Mission

Dali

Triangle

Tannoy

Mordaunt Short

B&W

Proac

Focal

Sonus Faber

Wilson Audio

REL

Avalon

 

[CnoEvil]

He also suggested me (since I mainly listen to jazz, acoustic, classic, light old rock) to look at full tube amps since they can't be beaten in terms of details and natural sound. He said he will connect also an Audio Research one during the demo (i think the VSI60 but I am not sure) to show me what he's talking about...so I am really looking forward to this.

How do you feel the ARC VSi60? Anybody has an extensive experience on tubes? I think I am going to have fun... :dance:

It sounds like your dealer has some great gear. Audio Research make some very musical sounding components, and the VSi60 will make a great addition to your list.

It looks an intriguing beast. For a start, it appears to be a type of hybrid, as part of the signal path is solid state, though transistors are only used in the input stage (JFET).

I suspect that compared to the 35i, the treble might sound slightly rolled off (slightly less airy), and the bass not quite as clean and powerful....but that's a guess. I would also expect the sound to be slightly cleaner than a fully tubed amp; but at least it should have enough power to drive your speakers.

One warning though re the demo....don't try to assess too many amps at one sitting. These are all wonderful amps, whose subtle (and maybe not so subtle) traits need time to be properly heard and understood.

Tube amps often vary little in power output with changing impedance, so make sure any fully tubed ones (especially SET) have enough current for your speakers......though it sounds as if the dealer knows his stuff.

 

[CnoEvil]

Thanks Cno! I am almost always skeptical about a Receiver bettering an pre/pro. However, this might be THE exception, as I remember hearing the AVR600 one time at a demo and it easily beats the MF M6i even on stereo performance.. I am only concerned about the AVR600's issues which got too much unwanted attention on the forum!

I agree with you about the AVR600 vs M6 (which surprised me to be honest).

The AVR600 still has bugs, though nothing like as bad. I really made the comment in the expectation that you would be keeping the excellent Classe SSP 300, but might upgrade to the P777, which is truly outstanding.

 

[acalex]

He also suggested me (since I mainly listen to jazz, acoustic, classic, light old rock) to look at full tube amps since they can't be beaten in terms of details and natural sound. He said he will connect also an Audio Research one during the demo (i think the VSI60 but I am not sure) to show me what he's talking about...so I am really looking forward to this.

How do you feel the ARC VSi60? Anybody has an extensive experience on tubes? I think I am going to have fun... :dance:

It sounds like your dealer has some great gear. Audio Research make some very musical sounding components, and the VSi60 will make a great addition to your list. It looks an intriguing beast. For a start, it appears to be a type of hybrid, as part of the signal path is solid state, though transistors are only used in the input stage (JFET). I suspect that compared to the 35i, the treble might sound slightly rolled off (slightly less airy), and the bass not quite as clean and powerful....but that's a guess. I would also expect the sound to be slightly cleaner than a fully tubed amp; but at least it should have enough power to drive your speakers. One warning though re the demo....don't try to assess too many amps at one sitting. These are all wonderful amps, whose subtle (and maybe not so subtle) traits need time to be properly heard and understood. Tube amps often vary little in power output with changing impedance, so make sure any fully tubed ones (especially SET) have enough current for your speakers......though it sounds as if the dealer knows his stuff.

Thanks for the advice Cno, I think I will audition "only" these two models (MF and ARC) this time, since he does not have any Audio Note (I thought so). He also have all nice and shining Primare exposed (they look very nice and sexy). I will use my source as well (pc + rDAC) and try to make a good selection of music...you will need to help on this as well if possible :wall:

I have some nice tracks I love (lot of classic guitar) but maybe something which can make me spot the difference between the two (something with great basses for example). I will put some smooth jazz, vocal jazz (like Diana Krall and Barb Jungr) and some classical music (not an expert but I love big orchestra performing "allegro" and "Andante"...I love intense performances which I can feel inside my chest, like a lot Rossini...for example Tancredi which starts very soft and at a certain point grows), plus some high-res tracks...anyway I will open a separate post for this! :type:

 

[CnoEvil]

Thanks guys for all the advices. I think I will stick to Pathos, MF AMS35i and Soro SE to start. Plus the tube amp that the dealer suggested which I will be auditioning next week. Still no reply from Sudgen, sent an email few days ago, nobody got back to me so far.
Cno, at this point, do you think the Masterclass I4 is worth a try? Or compared to the others I have on the list already it is nothing close? Contacted the dealer but he didn't get back to me yet...

Any advice on tube amps? The dealer today said that given the kind of music I listen mainly, I would enjoy a lot a nice tube and proposed the Audio Research VSi60...

IMO The Sugden is great in its price range, but is a bit out of its depth in the company of the 35i and Inpol (no disgrace). It also doesn't have as much current available (45W into 4 Ohms).

Looking at the speakers you've listed, my favorite would be Sonus Faber, followed by Dynaudio and possibly Avalon.

At this stage, it has all been very academic and subjective. The last thing I want to do is bias your judgement....only provide insight into what to listen out for, and provide a short list. Just remember that one man's meat is another man's poison!

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

I would also add a Lavardin amp to the mix too if you can trace any dealer carrying this brand near you. model IT or at least model IS Reference, that's what you should listen to your music through is realism of live performance is something important to you.

also, if you manage to come across Octave amps dealer give'em a try too. Dynaudio recently is using almost exclusively Octave amps to demo their speakers at hi-fi shows. if they're amp of choice for Dynaudio they can't be poor.

I'm curious how you'd rate a Primare amp having listened to AMS 35i and ARC VSi60. I'm gonna eat my hat (if I had one! ) if you found new Primare amps musical compared to ARC and MF class A.

 

[acalex]

Thanks guys for all the advices. I think I will stick to Pathos, MF AMS35i and Soro SE to start. Plus the tube amp that the dealer suggested which I will be auditioning next week. Still no reply from Sudgen, sent an email few days ago, nobody got back to me so far.
Cno, at this point, do you think the Masterclass I4 is worth a try? Or compared to the others I have on the list already it is nothing close? Contacted the dealer but he didn't get back to me yet...

Any advice on tube amps? The dealer today said that given the kind of music I listen mainly, I would enjoy a lot a nice tube and proposed the Audio Research VSi60...

IMO The Sugden is great in its price range, but is a bit out of its depth in the company of the 35i and Inpol (no disgrace). It also doesn't have as much current available (45W into 4 Ohms). Looking at the speakers you've listed, my favorite would be Sonus Faber, followed by Dynaudio and possibly Avalon. At this stage, it has all been very academic and subjective. The last thing I want to do is bias your judgement....only provide insight into what to listen out for, and provide a short list. Just remember that one man's meat is another man's poison!

I think we agree on almost everything! :rofl:

You are right...I have to stop thinking and comparing but just go out and listen...I will listen as much as I can here in Brussels, than I will drive once to Holland and listen to Pathos and Audio Note...than will make my decision! Than once I made my decision I will start finding a good deal :cheer:

 

[WishTree]

..but which speakers would you suggest to use when I demo the AMS35i and the Audio Research (a part from trying mine of course...)

I have experimented alot with Dynaudio, B&W and Proacs.. I have tried almost the entire range of B&W and Dynaudio.. Each individual model differs but on the whole B&W is more forward and Dynaudio's are more bassy as you move up.. none of them to me were good enough to buy and forget.. as they have various challenges with matching amplifiers.. B&W CM9 was one hyped speaker (bought & sold) , for example.. The 804Ds are very good but too bulky for my place.. Dynaudio Focus 220 is very good where as their contour range is too bassy that I could not live with (bought & sold).. Finally ended up at Proacs which are a gem of speakers.. besides the usual pros they are very easy to match with.. There is a sweetness but at the same time no forwardness.. it is so balanced.. I did not hear Souns Faber but I would have moved on to them if Proacs did not work out..

As cno says, please keep auditioning limited as it is quite challenging after few hours to differentiate.. and since the products that are going to hear are the top rated ones, it boils down to your personal liking, in the end.

Also, you might be aware of it, there is huge difference between the audition room to your home listening space.. Home Demo is a must before you let the money leave the wallet.. One of the studio that I listened to told me that the acoustics in their listening room are bad and the system will sound better at my home.. As you guessed, I never went back there again! Let your ears decide.. All the best!

 

[acalex]

I would also add a Lavardin amp to the mix too if you can trace any dealer carrying this brand near you. model IT or at least model IS Reference, that's what you should listen to your music through is realism of live performance is something important to you.

also, if you manage to come across Octave amps dealer give'em a try too. Dynaudio recently is using almost exclusively Octave amps to demo their speakers at hi-fi shows. if they're amp of choice for Dynaudio they can't be poor.

I'm curious how you'd rate a Primare amp having listened to AMS 35i and ARC VSi60. I'm gonna eat my hat (if I had one! ) if you found new Primare amps musical compared to ARC and MF class A.

Two shops in Paris (which is basically my second home) and one in Belgium, Antwerp abosolutely not far from Brussels. This is way much easier than any Pathos dealer...

 

[WishTree]

I agree with you about the AVR600 vs M6 (which surprised me to be honest). The AVR600 still has bugs, though nothing like as bad. I really made the comment in the expectation that you would be keeping the excellent Classe SSP 300, but might upgrade to the P777, which is truly outstanding.

It is so long back that I heard the AVR600.. may be I should get a home demo again.. I get now about the amp upgrade.. Thanks for that..

I love the SSP 300.. very clean & tight sound and if money allows I would go to SSP800HD