Speaker jumpers or bi wire ?

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Native_bon

Well-known member
Nov 26, 2008
180
2
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rainsoothe said:
woodbino said:
1. Or if you think about it the other way...After carefully engineering speakers, why would a manufacturer then poo-poo it all by putting someting that will ruin the sound?

2. This is all quakery - jumpers, speaker wire, doesn't matter, it will make NO difference whatsoever.
1. Easy: costs.

2. Ok, I double dare you to use a Nait 1 with high capacitance speaker cable, then post something while you use it as a doorstop after it stopped working. In the meantime, I'll be enjoying my TQ Black 2 that nullified the harshness and sybilance of the Naca5, whilst not dismantling music like the first gen TQ Black did. I genuinely do envy people with bad hearing, though, it would make my current attempts of downgrading so much easier.
You see I got a little music studio, and how many times have I done an adjustment to the sound thinking I'm hearing a change in sound only to realise moments later I was tweaking a different channel all together. *ROFL* May I say this is not the case with the TQ Black 2. Its been the biggest Improvement to any upgrade I have made in years. Its not always bias. Shouty sound gone any hardness gone. *dirol* Yeah I said it.
 

woodbino

Well-known member
Oct 13, 2013
9
10
18,525
rainsoothe said:
woodbino said:
rainsoothe said:
woodbino said:
1. Or if you think about it the other way...After carefully engineering speakers, why would a manufacturer then poo-poo it all by putting someting that will ruin the sound?

2. This is all quakery - jumpers, speaker wire, doesn't matter, it will make NO difference whatsoever.
1. Easy: costs.

2. Ok, I double dare you to use a Nait 1 with high capacitance speaker cable, then post something while you use it as a doorstop after it stopped working. In the meantime, I'll be enjoying my TQ Black 2 that nullified the harshness and sybilance of the Naca5, whilst not dismantling music like the first gen TQ Black did. I genuinely do envy people with bad hearing, though, it would make my current attempts of downgrading so much easier.
Just use something that is within the operating parameters of your hardware. And actually high capacitance cable will be okay as long as you don't run the music too loud.

What the hell is 'harshness and sybilance"?! I think you;ve been reading too much marketing rubbish - or you're writing this stuff. WhatHiFi reviewer maybe?

I guess we all need to justify our existence.
Bad hearing AND paranoia! You know what happens when you make assumptions, right?

Ok, I'll play along, and pretend the sybilance and harshness comment was genuine lack of knowledge or understanding of the english language, instead of petty mockery: sybilance is when the "S"-es are overly sharp and sound like sizzling bacon instead of a normal spoken "S", and the harshness is somewhat related - when guitar plucks or cymbals sound tinny instead of sounding like the materials that are actually resonating.
Why on earth would your Naca5 be colouring the sound with "sound like sizzling bacon " and harshness... is it faulty?? I mean, it's speaker cable for christ sake! My wilko cable doesn't do that.
 

rainsoothe

Well-known member
Apr 30, 2012
750
335
19,270
woodbino said:
rainsoothe said:
woodbino said:
rainsoothe said:
woodbino said:
1. Or if you think about it the other way...After carefully engineering speakers, why would a manufacturer then poo-poo it all by putting someting that will ruin the sound? 

2. This is all quakery - jumpers, speaker wire, doesn't matter, it will make NO difference whatsoever.
1. Easy: costs.

2. Ok, I double dare you to use a Nait 1 with high capacitance speaker cable, then post something while you use it as a doorstop after it stopped working. In the meantime, I'll be enjoying my TQ Black 2 that nullified the harshness and sybilance of the Naca5, whilst not dismantling music like the first gen TQ Black did. I genuinely do envy people with bad hearing, though, it would make my current attempts of downgrading so much easier.
Just use something that is within the operating parameters of your hardware. And actually high capacitance cable will be okay as long as you don't run the music too loud.

What the hell is 'harshness and sybilance"?! I think you;ve been reading too much marketing rubbish - or you're writing this stuff. WhatHiFi reviewer maybe? 

I guess we all need to justify our existence.
Bad hearing AND paranoia! You know what happens when you make assumptions, right?

Ok, I'll play along, and pretend the sybilance and harshness comment was genuine lack of knowledge or understanding of the english language, instead of petty mockery: sybilance is when the "S"-es are overly sharp and sound like sizzling bacon instead of a normal spoken "S", and the harshness is somewhat related - when guitar plucks or cymbals sound tinny instead of sounding like the materials that are actually resonating.
 

Why on earth would your Naca5 be colouring the sound with "sound like sizzling bacon " and harshness... is it faulty?? I mean, it's speaker cable for christ sake! My wilko cable doesn't do that.
If I knew, I'd be running my own cable company, making loads of money off of idiots such as myself. On a more serious note though, the harshness comes with other characteristics - the bass is tighter and punchier than the TQ, even if it's less textured. Also, it doesn't introduce harshness on it's own, but the combination with the rest of the system makes it more obvious. I heard no harshness with components that have a more rolled off top end, like Arcam.
 

CnoEvil

New member
Aug 21, 2009
556
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rainsoothe said:
If I knew, I'd be running my own cable company, making loads of money off of idiots such as myself. On a more serious note though, the harshness comes with other characteristics - the bass is tighter and punchier than the TQ, even if it's less textured. Also, it doesn't introduce harshness on it's own, but the combination with the rest of the system makes it more obvious. I heard no harshness with components that have a more rolled off top end, like Arcam.
Is it just me, or does Woodbino remind you of a certain banned Irishman, that appears from time to time using different pseudonyms and talking about cables?
 

nick8858

New member
Aug 8, 2011
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Is it just me, or does Woodbino remind you of a certain banned Irishman, that appears from time to time using different pseudonyms and talking about cables?

Would that be the infamous "Quest"? This place is so dull without him these days....
 

CnoEvil

New member
Aug 21, 2009
556
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0
nick8858 said:
Is it just me, or does Woodbino remind you of a certain banned Irishman, that appears from time to time using different pseudonyms and talking about cables?

Would that be the infamous "Quest"? This place is so dull without him these days....
Nope. This was long before Quest.
 

abacus

Well-known member
Sep 24, 2008
676
370
19,270
There has never been any verifiable evidence that providing the cable is the correct rating for the job, there will be any difference between them, so as usual my suggestions are:

1. Avoid anything made by H-Fi cable manufactures as they just use gobbledegook to con people into buying cheap cable with a fancy name. (Hence they have all been pulled up by the ASA)

2. Go to a pro music store (Physical or online) and get the cables that the pros use in film and music production studios, as their equipment makes most Hi-Fi equipment look like a wind up gramophone, so if its good enough for them it’s going to be way above what is required for Hi-Fi.

3. If you do go down the cable route, make sure you get them on buy or return and do an AB test to see if you can hear any difference, if you can (Even if it is only the placebo effect) then go with those cables, if not, just go with the cheapest.

Bill
 

Native_bon

Well-known member
Nov 26, 2008
180
2
18,595
abacus said:
There has never been any verifiable evidence that providing the cable is the correct rating for the job, there will be any difference between them, so as usual my suggestions are:

1. Avoid anything made by H-Fi cable manufactures as they just use gobbledegook to con people into buying cheap cable with a fancy name. (Hence they have all been pulled up by the ASA)

2. Go to a pro music store (Physical or online) and get the cables that the pros use in film and music production studios, as their equipment makes most Hi-Fi equipment look like a wind up gramophone, so if its good enough for them it’s going to be way above what is required for Hi-Fi.

3. If you do go down the cable route, make sure you get them on buy or return and do an AB test to see if you can hear any difference, if you can (Even if it is only the placebo effect) then go with those cables, if not, just go with the cheapest.

Bill
I got a music studio at home, but I use TQ black 2 cables for music and AV *biggrin*
 

woodbino

Well-known member
Oct 13, 2013
9
10
18,525
Now that's great advice, Abacus.

I've seen one studio use 13a twin pole mains leads as their speaker wire. Is this a 'thing'?
 

Benedict_Arnold

New member
Jan 16, 2013
661
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Coming late to the discussion but to summarize my opinions:

Bi-wire off a one-box stereo amp (assuming it doesn't have four separate power amps within) is a waste of time.

Over the years some speaker cable manufacturers spoke of using separate configurations for HF and LF and there may have been some merit in those, but they may have been "snake oil" as they say around here or ti may just have been a work-around for shiddy speaker cables generally of old. I even bought some in the 90s (Ixos I think) which had stranded cores for HF and solid cores for LF, or the other way around, I forget. Bottom line though is that it's probably better to just spend the money on better speakers or better / thicker speaker cables.

Bi-amping off two separate power amps - or an integrated amp with an add-on power amp - can be brilliant but don't expect a doubling of loudnessicity.

Depending on your speakers and amps and personal preferences you may find "vertical" bi-amping - where one amp drives the HF and LF of one speaker, the other amp the other speaker - or "horizontal" bi-amping - where one amp drives the HF on both speakers, the other amp drives the LF on both speakers, works best. See:

http://usr.audioasylum.com/images/2/26701/Horizontal_and_Vertical_Biamping.jpg

for illustrations.

Horizontal bi-amping works best for situations where you're using an integrated amp plus a daisy-chained power amp, obviously. You can experiment with which amp drives HF and which drives LF best. I personally prefer using the more powerful of the two to drive the LF, as I feel the bigger power capacitors in the more powerful amps give bigger bass drum thumps whilst the smaller capacitors in the less powerful amp drive the more constant load of the HF better, whilst some will argue the reverse. Your ears, your music, your choice.

Bi-Amp Speakers with Brass Jumpers

Those brass jumpers are just plain nasty. Get your local hifi shoppe to make you up some 6 inch to foot long jumpers using the same speaker cable as your main runs or just connect the terminals using the screw-down parts of the terminals (assuming you can get two cable ends into whichever terminals you also use for your amp-to--speaker runs). The sound will improve immensley. Remember the manufacturer built these speakers to be bi-wired or bi-amped and the jumpers are just there so the speakers work without bi-amping/wiring, not for optimal sound quality at all.

Tip to avoid loosing the brass jumpers is to just loosen the speaker terminals, rotate the brass jumpers out of one set of ends so they're no longer making contact and re-tighten the screw-downs. Them you or your Memsahib won't throw them out or "put them away somewhere safe" - never to be seen again. BTDT.

Wierdly, some people (Linn I tink) used to recommend running the jumpers diagonally, i.e. HF+ to LF- and HF- to LF+, which runs the bass and treble anti-phase. You can experiment and decide for yourself. Not sure if you'll b*gger the crossover circuits in the process though, so proceed with caution.
 

andyjm

New member
Jul 20, 2012
15
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0
Benedict_Arnold said:
Bi-Amp Speakers with Brass Jumpers

Those brass jumpers are just plain nasty. Get your local hifi shoppe to make you up some 6 inch to foot long jumpers using the same speaker cable as your main runs or just connect the terminals using the screw-down parts of the terminals (assuming you can get two cable ends into whichever terminals you also use for your amp-to--speaker runs). The sound will improve immensley. Remember the manufacturer built these speakers to be bi-wired or bi-amped and the jumpers are just there so the speakers work without bi-amping/wiring, not for optimal sound quality at all.
The sound won't change very much at all by using bits of wire, but it will definitely be worse than using the flat plate jumpers.

How could it possibly get better?
 

MajorFubar

New member
Mar 3, 2010
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so using speaker wire to replace brass jumpers that can take maybe 200+amps before they blow improves the sound. No wonder some of you lot are easy prey for snakeoil salesmen. You almost deserve to be conned out of your money. But hey it's your money, who am I to judge.
 

chebby

Well-known member
Jun 2, 2008
1,245
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That might be true if they were solid ‘brass’ but mine are very thin plastic coated in a layer of something gold coloured (might be gold but it’s not clear).

When I bought my speakers they arrived with only one bridge. Three others had gone missing. So as a stop-gap (whilst new bridges were ordered) I bought my Van Damme jumpers.

The other bridges eventually turned up at the dealer’s, discovered inside some other ported enclosures when they were found to rattle if moved.

It seems a customer’s child had unscrewed some and ‘posted’ them in the convenient holes.

The replacement bridges (very, very delicate) now live in a small card box until such time as I sell the speakers. They could bend by supporting their own weight I think!

I am not bothered about comparing them. I am sure - despite their fragility - they wouldn’t sound much different but the Van Damme jumpers look and feel far more secure.
 

Benedict_Arnold

New member
Jan 16, 2013
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200 amps into 8 ohms is 320 kilowatts. If your speakers can take that, if your house has its own power station, stick with the brass jumpers. Otherwise try speaker wire jumpers. Or are your speakers hooked up to your amp with straightened out coathangers or flat twin and earth too?
 

Benedict_Arnold

New member
Jan 16, 2013
661
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chebby said:
That might be true if they were solid ‘brass’ but mine are very thin plastic coated in a layer of something gold coloured (might be gold but it’s not clear).

When I bought my speakers they arrived with only one bridge. Three others had gone missing. So as a stop-gap (whilst new bridges were ordered) I bought my Van Damme jumpers. 

The other bridges eventually turned up at the dealer’s, discovered inside some other ported enclosures when they were found to rattle if moved.

It seems a customer’s child had unscrewed some and ‘posted’ them in the convenient holes.

The replacement bridges (very, very delicate) now live in a small card box until such time as I sell the speakers. They could bend by supporting their own weight I think!

I am not bothered about comparing them. I am sure - despite their fragility - they wouldn’t sound much different but the Van Damme jumpers look and feel far more secure.
Most of those "brass" jumpers are probably brass or cadmium plated steel.

And since iron and steel have six times the resistivity of copper, not to mention the phase changes caused by the different reactances... From there on it gets really testical...
 

andyjm

New member
Jul 20, 2012
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Benedict_Arnold said:
Most of those "brass" jumpers are probably brass or cadmium plated steel.

And since iron and steel have six times the resistivity of copper, not to mention the phase changes caused by the different reactances... From there on it gets really testical...
A short, flat jumper plate will have lower resistance than a jumper cable.

I can well imagine you don't want to "mention phase changes caused by the different reactances" - as I have no idea what you are talking about.

Perhaps you could share your thinking on this?
 

Muddywaterstones

New member
Apr 21, 2016
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[/quote] Most of those "brass" jumpers are probably brass or cadmium plated steel.

And since iron and steel have six times the resistivity of copper, not to mention the phase changes caused by the different reactances... From there on it gets really testical...

[/quote]

These cable type threads always end up talking b####x! Got my granny to knit some speaker jumpers. Maybe she used too heavy a gauge as the sound became all woolly. Removed them again and it was like a veil had lifted.

FWIW I just pass the cable through the low connector, de-nuding enough cable for it to clamp down and terminate it on the high connector. Something about using one continuous piece of wire makes sense to me. It doesn't really sound a world different to other configurations.
 

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