Speaker cone materials

[admin_exported]

Just wondering, do speaker cone materials and construction usually/often imply particular sound characteristics?

I've read several posts implying aluminium tweeters give a brighter sharper sound than fabric examples, but what about woofers?

Card vs. woven plastic/kevlar stuff?

Fixed centre vs. traditional?

 

[Anonymous]

Messrs Bowers and Wilkins have quite a lot of information about these things on their web site. Other speaker manufacturers may also but I've not personally explored their sites. Hope this helps.

 

[Anonymous]

There are arguments for and against using different diaphragm materials in loudspeakers but in principle it boils down to soft materials having very low Q resonances at very low levels and hard ones having lower distortion and very high Q ones out of band, protagonists arguing that you can't hear them because they are out of band. However the reason you can hear metal tweeters sounding metallic is because they are audible below the crossover. It's practically impossible to design steep enough filters in passive speakers to avoid this. If you don't hear a metal tweeter it'll be because the Bass isn't well controlled and is masking it. The old Epos ES14, which is still much loved, was in this category, it only had a 6 dB/octave filter on the tweeter meaning that not only was it audible through the mid band but 90 degrees out of phase too, however the slightly exaggerated bottom end covered this up and the speaker sounded quite nice.

There are lots of compromises in loudspeakers, but they are improving year on year. My advice is to listen to a short list that includes a variety of diaphragm materials and pick the ones that sound the most accurate and natural. Be very careful though, as there are large variations of balance between speakers and it makes it extremely difficult to pick ones that are going to be good for long periods of listening without fatigue.

 

[Anonymous]

Many thanks for the interesting response.

Do particular materials give a certain sound style for mid/low drivers? Warmth, speed, crispness?

 

[drummerman]

[quote user="Ashley James"]
There are arguments for and against using different diaphragm materials in loudspeakers but in principle it boils down to soft materials having very low Q resonances at very low levels and hard ones having lower distortion and very high Q ones out of band, protagonists arguing that you can't hear them because they are out of band. However the reason you can hear metal tweeters sounding metallic is because they are audible below the crossover. It's practically impossible to design steep enough filters in passive speakers to avoid this. If you don't hear a metal tweeter it'll be because the Bass isn't well controlled and is masking it. The old Epos ES14, which is still much loved, was in this category, it only had a 6 dB/octave filter on the tweeter meaning that not only was it audible through the mid band but 90 degrees out of phase too, however the slightly exaggerated bottom end covered this up and the speaker sounded quite nice. There are lots of compromises in loudspeakers, but they are improving year on year. My advice is to listen to a short list that includes a variety of diaphragm materials and pick the ones that sound the most accurate and natural. Be very careful though, as there are large variations of balance between speakers and it makes it extremely difficult to pick ones that are going to be good for long periods of listening without fatigue.
[/quote]

Can I ask you, what your opinion of a couple of competitor products is; Rega R3 and Proac Studios 110 (if you have heard them. It would surprise me if you did'nt). Perhaps leaving aside your own AVI's just for a posting, I will hear them soon.

 

[Anonymous]

LOL. Don't we already know his answer for this one?
...and hey, congrats for your 1000+ posts! Good going man.

 

[Anonymous]

The only point I'd make is that the active system better, which means that if you took those two speakers and made them Active with electronic versions of their present crossovers, they'd sound better. This is fact and not opinion. However we've taken things further and used much steeper, in phase filters, than are possible with passive designs so that we've removed what is probably the most intrusive distortion in loudspeakers - The impact of the sound of the crossover.

If you add to that our much more powerful amplifiers that are a significant improvement on our Lab Series Integrated plus a state of the Art DAC and preamp, all for £1000, you have a pair of speakers that you'd have a job to improve on if you spent five or six times as much. These facts are unlikely to appear in a review, but they are the truth and why arguments are raging all over the place about them. They are the future of high quality sound reproduction.

Ash

 

[Clare Newsome]

[quote user="Ashley James"] These facts are unlikely to appear in a review, [/quote]

Nonsense - we regularly praise both the performance and value of active designs.

Ash, I know you mean well, but there's a fine line between evangelising and polemic.

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="Ashley James"]My advice is to listen to a short list that includes a variety of diaphragm materials and pick the ones that sound the most accurate and natural[/quote]

If an accurate and natural sound is how you want your music to sound.

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="Ashley James"]The only point I'd make is that the active system better, which means that if you took those two speakers and made them Active with electronic versions of their present crossovers, they'd sound better. This is fact and not opinion. [/quote][quote user="Ashley James"]The only point I'd make is that the active system better, which means that if you took those two speakers and made them Active with electronic versions of their present crossovers, they'd sound better. This is fact and not opinion. [/quote]

Again very subjective, not fact. Re: distortion - Many people find having a very clean sound makes for a more dull/ well-mannered sond whereas there are those who find a little distortion may liven up the sound (more engaging). This applys to 'dirty mains vs cleaner mains' too IMHO

 

[drummerman]

[quote user="JAXON5"]Many people find having a very clean sound makes for a more dull/ well-mannered sond whereas there are those who find a little distortion may liven up the sound (more engaging). This applys to 'dirty mains vs cleaner mains' too IMHO[/quote]

I'm with you on that one.

 

[drummerman]

[quote user="unleash_me"]
LOL. Don't we already know his answer for this one?
...and hey, congrats for your 1000+ posts! Good going man.

[/quote]

Thanks

 

[Anonymous]

You must understand that every piece of electronics that's designed is tested and measured and every time something new appears it will test and measure a little better. There is no other way to judge it.

Electronic engineers who produce Hi Fi have a choice of "building blocks" available to them from various suppliers who also provide copious instructions on how to implement them. They often even give you a finished product to evaluate. We've loads of DACs like this. There is no scope for "artistic interpretation", if you get it wrong, it may be unreliable and it won't measure or sound as good as it should and this result will not be predictable. Therefore things should be done properly and meticulously tested to ensure that they have been.

You may think you find distortion exciting, but the evidence is that, in properly conducted tests, people prefer the most accurate, natural and convincing replay. However hi fi enthusiasts do not have very good frames of reference because they may have persuaded themselves that what they have is musical when it's just poor and use this as a guide to judging something new.

On our website I've written an article and cited three scientifically conducted experiments that illustrate the problems we all face in evaluating something we're about to spend our hard earned money on.

The active system is more accurate and measures better.

Ashley

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="Clare Newsome"]
[quote user="Ashley James"] These facts are unlikely to appear in a review, [/quote]

Nonsense - we regularly praise both the performance and value of active designs.

Ash, I know you mean well, but there's a fine line between evangelising and polemic.
[/quote]

Claire I'm sure you do but if you add up the cost of the bits in ADM9s and compare them to the prices of our own separates, you'll see an enormous difference, which was ignored when What hi fi last reviewed ADM9's.

Basically we're offering about £5,000 worth of kit for £1000 and I can't see you lot owning up to that!

And I'm not evangelising; These are cold hard facts, difficult though it may be to believe.

Ash xx

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="Ashley James"]

but the evidence is that, in properly conducted tests, people prefer the most accurate, natural and convincing replay. However hi fi enthusiasts do not have very good frames of reference because they may have persuaded themselves that what they have is musical when it's just poor and use this as a guide to judging something new.
[/quote]
so please tell me who these "people" are and why they have a better frame of reference than "hi-fi enthusiasts" (where did you find a brush and pot of tar big enough for that generalisation?). seems to me you could save yourself a lot of time and buy a JBC instead of just using a shovel...

 

[Clare Newsome]

[quote user="Ashley James"]if you add up the cost of the bits in ADM9s and compare them to the prices of our own separates, you'll see an enormous difference, which was ignored when What hi fi last reviewed ADM9's.

Basically we're offering about £5,000 worth of kit for £1000 and I can't see you lot owning up to that! [/quote]

Ash, our review rating system is specifically designed to reflect performance-per-pound. We gave the ADM9s the full five stars, and the Buyer's Guide entry reads: "Build a great-sounding system with these active speakers and a music server."

So, we think - and have been telling our readers since the review was published last August - that the ADM9s are a great product.

Just thought I should clarify that for the benefit of people landing on this thread who'd probably think - judging by your posts - that WHF doesn't understand or appreciate your products.

(PS, Ash - just a tip: it's probably not best to suggest your potential customers don't know how to listen. Everyone should be able to make up their own mind about what suits them.)

 

[Anonymous]

Claire

I'm sorry if it came across that way, what I'm trying to say is that we're all deeply flawed (especially me!) and it affects the way we asses things we listen to and is explained on this link. http://www.avihifi.com/assessinghifi.html If you bear all this in mind when you hear something new it may help.

Ash xx

 

[bigblue235]

[quote user="Clare Newsome"] (PS, Ash - just a tip: it's probably not best to suggest your potential customers don't know how to listen. Everyone should be able to make up their own mind about what suits them.) [/quote]

Yeah, I'd have to agree with that. Ashley, I think you're maybe in slight danger of becoming a sales prevention officer here

In the past few days you've criticised the review of those speakers, made unflattering comments about typical hi-fi buyers and PC users, people who buy premium cables... and I'm sure many other things/people in threads I've not yet read!

You've slated pretty much the whole PC market, said there are corners cut on Windows PC's and stated that Macs are "faster" and "better specced" than PC's, amongst other inaccuracies. You've mentioned numerous supposed selling points about Macs that are equally as relevant to PC's, whilst ignoring all the positives that the PC market has. I appreciate the Mac has its uses, but so do Windows (or Linux) boxes for that matter.

With regard to the AMD9's, claiming that you're giving people £5000 worth of kit for £1000 makes me cringe slightly. You're not really, are you? I have no idea what your cost price for those speakers is, nor do I wish to know, but it's under £1000, clearly. So with that in mind, how could you add a mark up of £4000+ on them?

If, when suggesting comparison to your separates, you're implying that it would cost a typical consumer £5000 in AVI gear to get the match of the active speakers, then if said consumer doesn't wish to buy those speakers, then they're certainly not going to buy the AVI separates for £4000 more!

I have no doubt that the ADM9's are a wonderful product and I'm sure they could be classed as being worth far more than £1000, certainly in performance terms anyway. However, despite the HFC review comparing them to £5000 speakers, you obviously know that you can't charge that for them. If this is the way the market heads, then I'm sure many of your competitors will start offering similar products, at similar £1000 prices.

I greatly admire your passion and products, it's why I'm making this post. I'd hate to see you undermine your own product, but I really think you're in grave danger of doing it, and shooting yourself in the foot, at least on this site.

Likewise your website, there's not many professional audio companies (or companies of any sort) that use words or phrases like "they think all hi-fi enthusiasts are barking"

on their homepage. I guess that's your handywork too?

But making sweeping statements there, like you do here, will alienate many people. Stating things like "iPod shuffles sound as good as the best CD players made" is all well and good if everyone believes it, but if people (for whatever reason, whether right or wrong) disagree, they're not going to take you seriously.

Sorry for rambling, but I have much personal, painful experience of fantastic products and services not doing well because of poor marketing. Please consider how your posts are coming across, and also consider getting someone to re-write your homepage, or at least ask some hi-fi journo's what they think of it. Freelance job for Mr. Everard perhaps?!

 

[drummerman]

[quote user="bigblue235"]
[quote user="Clare Newsome"] (PS, Ash - just a tip: it's probably not best to suggest your potential customers don't know how to listen. Everyone should be able to make up their own mind about what suits them.) [/quote]

Yeah, I'd have to agree with that. Ashley, I think you're maybe in slight danger of becoming a sales prevention officer here

In the past few days you've criticised the review of those speakers, made unflattering comments about typical hi-fi buyers and PC users, people who buy premium cables... and I'm sure many other things/people in threads I've not yet read!

You've slated pretty much the whole PC market, said there are corners cut on Windows PC's and stated that Macs are "faster" and "better specced" than PC's, amongst other inaccuracies. You've mentioned numerous supposed selling points about Macs that are equally as relevant to PC's, whilst ignoring all the positives that the PC market has. I appreciate the Mac has its uses, but so do Windows (or Linux) boxes for that matter.

With regard to the AMD9's, claiming that you're giving people £5000 worth of kit for £1000 makes me cringe slightly. You're not really, are you? I have no idea what your cost price for those speakers is, nor do I wish to know, but it's under £1000, clearly. So with that in mind, how could you add a mark up of £4000+ on them?

If, when suggesting comparison to your separates, you're implying that it would cost a typical consumer £5000 in AVI gear to get the match of the active speakers, then if said consumer doesn't wish to buy those speakers, then they're certainly not going to buy the AVI separates for £4000 more!

I have no doubt that the ADM9's are a wonderful product and I'm sure they could be classed as being worth far more than £1000, certainly in performance terms anyway. However, despite the HFC review comparing them to £5000 speakers, you obviously know that you can't charge that for them. If this is the way the market heads, then I'm sure many of your competitors will start offering similar products, at similar £1000 prices.

I greatly admire your passion and products, it's why I'm making this post. I'd hate to see you undermine your own product, but I really think you're in grave danger of doing it, and shooting yourself in the foot, at least on this site.

Likewise your website, there's not many professional audio companies (or companies of any sort) that use words or phrases like "they think all hi-fi enthusiasts are barking"

on their homepage. I guess that's your handywork too?

But making sweeping statements there, like you do here, will alienate many people. Stating things like "iPod shuffles sound as good as the best CD players made" is all well and good if everyone believes it, but if people (for whatever reason, whether right or wrong) disagree, they're not going to take you seriously.

Sorry for rambling, but I have much personal, painful experience of fantastic products and services not doing well because of poor marketing. Please consider how your posts are coming across, and also consider getting someone to re-write your homepage, or at least ask some hi-fi journo's what they think of it. Freelance job for Mr. Everard perhaps?!

[/quote]

You are of course right to be sceptical but as you do, even I can't argue with the value issue of those 9's. A quality powerful amplifier, pre-amp, Dac, R/C, and what looks like decent speakers (though they left me unmoved during the very short time I've heard them but I will audition them and the new versions asap) sounds like very good value. Whether they amount to 5k who knows but it probably would be impossible to build a separates system for the money.

Plus he makes interesting reading and contributed with valuable information. I wished more industry reps take part even if they plug their products. We can always disagree and express our opinions and that makes for interesting threads.

 

[bigblue235]

I agree he makes interesting reading, no doubt of that. I'm grateful we have him 'on board', and as I've already said, I greatly admire his passion. I have no problems with the chap himself, none whatsoever. It's just I do feel sometimes he's doing himself an injustice with how he puts his point across. It's as if he's on a mission!

I have no doubt he believes fully in what he's saying, but not everyone else does, and he seems to 'put down' things that don't fit with his way of thinking. He makes sweeping statements like the one I mentioned above, which are down to personal opinion, and others that are pretty much wrong, regardless of opinion.

I feel that he has a fantastic product, and he seems like a great guy, I just think he could sell things better!