Speaker cables and system quality

[QuestForThe13thNote]

one thing that lots of people bang on about is that speaker cables don't matter, or don't make discernible differences in sound quality terms, is because frankly their systems are not up to it.

you can't expect different cables to make a difference on a £200 amp right?, probably not even a £1000 one. But when you start spending lots more on amps and speakers, cables do make discernible sound quality differences. We are not talking expensive cables btw. Maybe only ones costing £6-7 per metre.

so it stands to reason the person will think cables don't make a difference if their kit is not up to it. It's all comparative of course. I've had systems costing £2000 (amp and speakers) and I couldn't really hear much difference at all with different cables, below that almost certainly. But when spending a lot more it's very definetly obvious when you make cable changes.

so this is the question - who is prepared to have a debate on this subject. No technicalities and x technical reason why there should be no difference, or a difference, but on the subject is system quality related to the discernible differences speaker cables can give and as a tweak.

 

[chebby]

It's a non-issue.

Dealers can lend out sets of cables for home trial, or you can buy from businesses who will honour a full, no-quibble, money back agreement within a specified period (60 days comes to mind for some reason).

If you don't care (or don't believe or whatever) then again, it's a non-issue because you have either never encountered a hi-fi forum, and/or are safe in the knowledge that physics is your friend.

Either way, you can have happiness in being right and having your system sound better than the other chap's.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

It's a non-issue.

Dealers can lend out sets of cables for home trial, or you can buy from businesses who will honour a full, no-quibble, money back agreement within a specified period (60 days comes to mind for some reason).

If you don't care (or don't believe or whatever) then again, it's a non-issue because you have either never encountered a hi-fi forum, and/or are safe in the knowledge that physics is your friend.

Either way, you can have happiness in being right and having your system sound better than the other chap's.

i wasn't interested in the system sounding better than another's, or if someone cares or not. I'm was interested in why people hold that view about speaker cables like chubby. Maybe the psychology of it. Chubbys view confirms my own experience that I couldn't tell speaker cables apart in changing sound quality for the better, in a budget system I owned with budget speakers. Now this was a good budget system that was very good at its price.

but when I think who makes these judgements and then extrapolate them onto others kit as a non issue, it's by people who own budget systems. Jpw sonatas as in this case. I'm not playing down your system one bit, neither do I want to, just getting to the question at hand.

But start spending more on hi fi it's immediately obvious and often quite profound what cables do.

but it's funny when you then start saying that budget systems won't make a difference, you come onto people's kit and they then think you are criticising it, and they will say these are the best speakers you can get at this price and if cables do make a difference I will hear them with this quality speaker, with it seems no comparison to different amps and speakers in a much higher quality price bracket. I always think this a bit funny in hi fi that people can't self criticise their own views and thoughts and choices see through how mad they are, or are prepared to be flexible to change. Or just think you can't say a budget system sounds as good as mid range and higher price ones.

 

[Vladimir]

What people should talk about more than cables is good clean connections. They affect sound significantly. It's a good practice to clean pots and switches every few years (regardless of amp age) and refresh RCA/speaker connections. Relays (especially on high current systems) should be replaced every 15-20 years or so. A lot of times by swapping cables people hear actual improvement because of refreshed connection contacts rather than what the wire does.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

I'd agree with what vlad says but I think that's nothing compared to the right sounding cable in the right system where you can hear a difference. But the question of why certain people hold the views they do is very interesting indeed and this hobby is all about very fallible human traits that lead people into thinking how they do.

 

[Leif]

Multiple experiments have shown that our perceptions change depending on whether or not we know the system through which we are playing music. Thus, if you know you are using a high end system, the music will sound better.

This is the best discussion I have come across:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/testing-audiophile-claims-and-myths.486598/

The basic conclusion is that there is a huge difference between speakers, but little or no difference for many other components, assuming a reasonable quality. Obviously the wire you use for electric circuits in your house is not up to scratch, but decent oxygen free copper is all you need for speaker cables. Nelson Pass has done some tests, and concluded that there is a tiny difference between cables, and not neceessarily for the better with the pricier ones.

An interesting article:

http://www.biline.ca/audio_critic/mags/The_Audio_Critic_26_r.pdf

Those who think their hearing changes the laws of physics are deluding themselves. However, dealers are more than happy to encourage this delusion. I am sure some genuinely believe what they say, and of course some just encourage the punters to buy the most expensive gear they can afford.

Incidentally, if cables are so critical, one would expect the shorter the better. After all, the cable can only degrade the signal. So the longer the cable, the worse the signal. And yet the dealers and the manufacturers never tell us to arrange our system so as to minimise the length of speaker cables. Instead they tell us to spend huge amounts on very expensive cable, the best we can afford. Suspicious? Surely not! Nooooo ....

My view is that one should buy a decent amplifier which is well made, looks good and appeals to our senses, not just our hearing, but our eyes, and our delusions, and then spend plenty on good speakers. I've found speakers to be very important. As to cables, just buy inexpensive but decent quality.

If you want to buy a high end amp fine, I'm happy for you. But don't come telling me nonsense about the sound quality being far superior to my more basic system. By all means tell me how beautiful it looks, although I must admit most just look like rectangular boxes with a few dials and lights, not exactly Nastassja Kinski (I'm dating myself here ... ) The old style Arcam Solo is to my eyes an example of gorgeous design, as are many much more expensive systems.

 

[davedotco]

Some people "hold the views they do" because they are capable of evaluating the evidence and making an informed decision.

Cable differences that are 'obvious' in ordinairy sighted tests virtually dissappear when tested blind, irrespective of the quality of the system, this has been shown to be the case time after time. That is the evidence.

Sighted tests are subject to expectation bias and other factors that make them extremely unreliable when it comes to evaluating difference. Again that is the evidence and it is very well researched.

If you choose to ignore the evidence, that is of course entirely up to you, but do not expect too many people to agree with you.

 

[Vladimir]

I'd agree with what vlad says but I think that's nothing compared to the right sounding cable in the right system where you can hear a difference. But the question of why certain people hold the views they do is very interesting indeed and this hobby is all about very fallible human traits that lead people into thinking how they do.

What I'm saying is that if you've found the good pair of cables for your system and you are good, happy and everything is beautiful. But 2-3 years later you get an itch and buy new cables, try them on and they sound better. This can be explained due to fresh connections, not necessarily because of swapping one adequate wire with another. Gear maintanance is important.

 

[chebby]

It's a non-issue.

Dealers can lend out sets of cables for home trial, or you can buy from businesses who will honour a full, no-quibble, money back agreement within a specified period (60 days comes to mind for some reason).

If you don't care (or don't believe or whatever) then again, it's a non-issue because you have either never encountered a hi-fi forum, and/or are safe in the knowledge that physics is your friend.

Either way, you can have happiness in being right and having your system sound better than the other chap's.

... like chubby.

... Chubbys view

Please pay me the courtesy of using my name correctly. Thankyou.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

Multiple experiments have shown that our perceptions change depending on whether or not we know the system through which we are playing music. Thus, if you know you are using a high end system, the music will sound better.

This is the best discussion I have come across:

http://www.biline.ca/audio_critic/mags/The_Audio_Critic_26_r.pdf

Those who think their hearing changes the laws of physics are deluding themselves. However, dealers are more than happy to encourage this delusion. I am sure some genuinely believe what they say, and of course some just encourage the punters to buy the most expensive gear they can afford.

Incidentally, if cables are so critical, one would expect the shorter the better. After all, the cable can only degrade the signal. So the longer the cable, the worse the signal. And yet the dealers and the manufacturers never tell us to arrange our system so as to minimise the length of speaker cables. Instead they tell us to spend huge amounts on very expensive cable, the best we can afford. Suspicious? Surely not! Nooooo ....

My view is that one should buy a decent amplifier which is well made, looks good and appeals to our senses, not just our hearing, but our eyes, and our delusions, and then spend plenty on good speakers. I've found speakers to be very important. As to cables, just buy inexpensive but decent quality.

If you want to buy a high end amp fine, I'm happy for you. But don't come telling me nonsense about the sound quality being far superior to my more basic system. By all means tell me how beautiful it looks, although I must admit most just look like rectangular boxes with a few dials and lights, not exactly Nastassja Kinski (I'm dating myself here ... ) The old style Arcam Solo is to my eyes an example of gorgeous design, as are many much more expensive systems.

i wasn't telling you it's far superior to your system, the discussion was about if cables make a difference and why people hold those views. If you go a bit deeper you usually find out. Could I ask you to explain please what cables you tried before you changed your monitor audios to pmc twenty 21. I've a far amount of experience of changing cables on my old twenty 23s which have same drivers to yours, less long transmission line, and I'd expect cable changes will make a big difference if your arcam solo is really getting the best or somewhat near the best out of the 21s. What speaker cable are you using now? Same as with ma?

the idea we hear what we want is just a fallacy really when the difference is so big in some cables in the right systems of quality and matching etc. I suspect I could bring around a cable to yours which will destroy the sound of the 21s and another which will improve clarity and dynamics, but in physics terms it's just stated as bs. The acid test really is to try yourself if you haven't already, if only just out of curiosity.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

Also what people always say is that the cable thing is a snob thing, but what happens when someone recounts that a cheaper cable improves sound quality and they stick with it. That's happened to me me quite a few times that cheaper and a different type of cable construction is better.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

Davedotco.

Not really as we are just 'bods' on a hi fi forum.

do you know anyone who has blind tested a cable under scientifically correct conditions, with a large enough sample and controls, to show either way that blind testing shows a difference and non blind doesn't. I don't. Most accessible online tests are simple small sample tests that could be ripped to bits by scientists and anyway there is no inclination to test this way, since no scientific drive, and people don't buy stuff double blind.

There isn't any evidence. But the point here is when you ask by inference for others to mention the kit that can or cannot make a difference what you tend to find, is people with better quality hi fi will recount that cables will make a difference (not necessarily expensive but often just cheap and the 'right one'). But when you mention it to people who do not hear any difference with many cables in a budget system, like my experience of my budget system, you tend to realise I think why people hold these views that cables are all the same in sq terms and no differences. And you tend to get more people holding these views on a forum with relative budget stuff.

 

[insider9]

I did just that and employed my wife for a few evenings to blind test speaker cables. Scientific conditions... not quite but have done it. Also have performed acoustic measurements a repeatable number of times.

So may I ask what method have you used, OP? Also what speaker cables have you compared and currently use? Mine were Chord also.

 

[Leif]

Multiple experiments have shown that our perceptions change depending on whether or not we know the system through which we are playing music. Thus, if you know you are using a high end system, the music will sound better.

This is the best discussion I have come across:

http://www.biline.ca/audio_critic/mags/The_Audio_Critic_26_r.pdf

Those who think their hearing changes the laws of physics are deluding themselves. However, dealers are more than happy to encourage this delusion. I am sure some genuinely believe what they say, and of course some just encourage the punters to buy the most expensive gear they can afford.

Incidentally, if cables are so critical, one would expect the shorter the better. After all, the cable can only degrade the signal. So the longer the cable, the worse the signal. And yet the dealers and the manufacturers never tell us to arrange our system so as to minimise the length of speaker cables. Instead they tell us to spend huge amounts on very expensive cable, the best we can afford. Suspicious? Surely not! Nooooo ....

My view is that one should buy a decent amplifier which is well made, looks good and appeals to our senses, not just our hearing, but our eyes, and our delusions, and then spend plenty on good speakers. I've found speakers to be very important. As to cables, just buy inexpensive but decent quality.

If you want to buy a high end amp fine, I'm happy for you. But don't come telling me nonsense about the sound quality being far superior to my more basic system. By all means tell me how beautiful it looks, although I must admit most just look like rectangular boxes with a few dials and lights, not exactly Nastassja Kinski (I'm dating myself here ... ) The old style Arcam Solo is to my eyes an example of gorgeous design, as are many much more expensive systems.

i wasn't telling you it's far superior to your system, the discussion was about if cables make a difference and why people hold those views. If you go a bit deeper you usually find out. Could I ask you to explain please what cables you tried before you changed your monitor audios to pmc twenty 21. I've a far amount of experience of changing cables on my old twenty 23s which have same drivers to yours, less long transmission line, and I'd expect cable changes will make a big difference if your arcam solo is really getting the best or somewhat near the best out of the 21s. What speaker cable are you using now? Same as with ma?

the idea we hear what we want is just a fallacy really when the difference is so big in some cables in the right systems of quality and matching etc. I suspect I could bring around a cable to yours which will destroy the sound of the 21s and another which will improve clarity and dynamics, but in physics terms it's just stated as bs. The acid test really is to try yourself if you haven't already, if only just out of curiosity.

Could you at least do me the basic courtesy of reading what I wrote, and looking at the links before you reply?

"the idea we hear what we want is just a fallacy "

Please read the links. Experiments show that to be false.

 

[Leif]

I did just that and employed my wife for a few evenings to blind test speaker cables. Scientific conditions... not quite but have done it. Also have performed acoustic measurements a repeatable number of times.

So may I ask what method have you used, OP? Also what speaker cables have you compared and currently use? Mine were Chord also.

What conclusions did you and your wife come to?

 

[lindsayt]

I think that the real life situation is that it's too complicated to say that the more expensive a system you have, the more likely you are to hear differences between speaker cables.

1. There are many expensive amplifiers and speakers that sound mediocre.

2. There are some inexpensive to mid-budget amps and speakers that sound relatively good - in the right system and room.

3. Go 2nd hand and the price you have to pay may be wildly different to the price when new.

4. Valve amps seem to smother the differences between speaker cables. Probably down to them having output transformers and lower damping factor.

5. The greatest effect that I've heard from changing speaker cables has been a tonal balance effect at the frequency extremes. Whether these make a positive or negative difference or whether they are swamped by other factors such as changing speaker position and angling will all depend on the system, the room, the music, the listener.

Having said all that, it does seem to make sense that the more transparent a solid state system is, the more that a change in something like speaker cables could be easily audible. It could also be that the sort of person that has a relatively good system is more likely to be golden eared than someone with a mediocre system.

 

[insider9]

I did just that and employed my wife for a few evenings to blind test speaker cables. Scientific conditions... not quite but have done it. Also have performed acoustic measurements a repeatable number of times.

So may I ask what method have you used, OP? Also what speaker cables have you compared and currently use? Mine were Chord also.

What conclusions did you and your wife come to?

Couldn't reliably tell the difference. In fact I was more often wrong then right. She was only there so I don't know what cable is being used. She would unplug the cable and plug in back different/same cable each time, so I'd know if it's the same one should she not bother to change it. Bless her for that.

Not surprisingly acoustic measurements didn't show any relevant differences either. That's on the end of a modest system £5k worth (when looking at RRP).

Conclusion... there are better things you can do in a dark room with your wife :biggrin:

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

I did a blind abx test with a friend (who knows my system a lot and has listened to it a lot when he comes around) comparing talk 3 cable with my current chord epic reference, but I reckon I could equally have used £10/m chord clearway and noticed the difference. This was using my same electronics in my signature but with my old pmc twenty 23 speakers (now have pmc 25-23s). Talk 3 seemed to pair horribly with my old 20-23s. A total loss of detail and dynamics. But funnily enough it's not so bad now with my new 25-23s. But with the chord epic ref the sound was clearer, more dynamic, bass was sharper and accurate, more layers in the sounds.

We actually gave up on the blind a b x test after around 5 different tracks each, as we both picked the right cable every time. The talk was just one of those cables that did not work well. The talk is a copper only construction with basic shielding. The chord epic reference a twin shielded twisted pair cable with copper coated silver and dialectric shielding.

Now I'm not making the point buy expensive cables like the chord, but that 'different speaker cables make a sound quality difference in the right quality system'

we did the abx test by selecting 10 different tracks we liked and a variation of classical, electronic and rock. We then had one person doing the test blindfolded with a double face mask as used on a plane. I then designated cable a as chord epic reference and cable b as the talk 3. Keeping it secret from my friend I tossed a coin, heads was cable a and tails cable b. This would then designate the first cable to be heard by my friend against the track if say cable a was tossed, then the next cable to be heard would be the opposite. We would then toss the coin again to select cable a of b as being the blind one.

Track 1) Michael Jackson billie Jean- cable a, cable b, blind test - cable a

I then repeated for the other tracks, keeping the order secret (as my friend did for me for when I'd be blindfolded).

we kept the stereo on the same volume level and played the first thirty seconds of the track, in swapping cables the tester was guided out the room temporarily so they could not hear the cables being swapped over, if any bias could be derived from the sound different cables would make being moved or dropped etc. After playing cable a and then cable b, or b then a, and then playing the random blind cable, the tester was asked which the blind cable was. Was it the first cable or the second. We both picked the correct cable each time and I recall we gave up after about 4 tracks each, as we both got them correct, such was how obvious it was.

When people then refer to arbitrary double blind tests showing you can't select cables it makes me laugh. What often the tests searchable and findable on the internet don't deal with are the following ;

- own familiarity with the hi fi and how well you know it's sound and the things it does in sound terms. It would be much harder to pick out cables double blind on kit you don't know. But in a system you know it's easier.

- the degree of performance of cables. It's often just a test of expensive v cheap in some blind tests, but As I say that's not the hypothesis we are testing here. We are testing good versus bad pertaining to how it works in the system, and expense sometimes has something to do with that, other times it doesn't. For a test to be credible you have to pick wildly different performing cables outside the context of abx blind tests i.e. Just in a b non blind tests.

- because you need to form a view of badly performing cables first, before any blind test has credibility it must come before abx testing. We had both done that in seeing the cables and reckoning the chord epic reference is better.

- the people who don't own the hi fi but are listening to cables and trying to pick them out, must get to know the sound of the hi fi first. You can't send people into a shop of a system they are unfamiliar and get them to pick out cables, as it could be lack of familiarity with the music on the system that they are deciding on, not the cable.

- sitting in different parts of the room. One guy in a a-b test at Bristol in the chord room couldn't pick out a chord cable. Where was he? At the back!!!

- You have to remove the vagueries of how people reckon sounds and the different aspects of sounds. E.g. Detail, dynamics et . So if you don't know what dynamics is, you have to test whether people can pick out dynamics of different levels of quality before they can then be reliable people to judge if one cable has better dynamics than another. If you are not listening for dynamics you won't factor it into decisions to pick out the cable. You could call it schooling if you like, but you learn these things as you get familiar with the new hi fi. Someone who just listens on a very cheap iPod dock won't be listening out for dynamics on a good stereo.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

Insider9, can you confirm the system and the cables tried and are there any horror cables you used that really don't work well. See my test. Are you just using cables you like?

my system at the time of testing was (and I'm only quoting prices for comparison purposes)

- pmc twenty 23 speakers £2300

- Cyrus dac xp signature pre amp and dac : £3000

- Cyrus mono x200 signature power amps £2000 each

- Cyrus stream x signature playing flac cd ripped stuff in highest quality- £1250

- chord epic reference £150/m versus talk 3 £4/m

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

I think that the real life situation is that it's too complicated to say that the more expensive a system you have, the more likely you are to hear differences between speaker cables.

1. There are many expensive amplifiers and speakers that sound mediocre.

2. There are some inexpensive to mid-budget amps and speakers that sound relatively good - in the right system and room.

3. Go 2nd hand and the price you have to pay may be wildly different to the price when new.

4. Valve amps seem to smother the differences between speaker cables. Probably down to them having output transformers and lower damping factor.

5. The greatest effect that I've heard from changing speaker cables has been a tonal balance effect at the frequency extremes. Whether these make a positive or negative difference or whether they are swamped by other factors such as changing speaker position and angling will all depend on the system, the room, the music, the listener.

Having said all that, it does seem to make sense that the more transparent a solid state system is, the more that a change in something like speaker cables could be easily audible. It could also be that the sort of person that has a relatively good system is more likely to be golden eared than someone with a mediocre system.

id agree with the premise of this to a level, but what I'm talking about is someone who has say £500 monitor audio speakers and say a £500 Yamaha amp, versus say someone who owns say £4000 atc speakers and paired with say £5-£7k worth of naim stuff. It's just a different ballpark to compare the differences the cables can give, and we aren't talking about playing down systems but clearly the latter systems are a different comparison for these cable tests.

I don't think it's got anything to do with being golden eared. If someone gave me a system many more times better quality than mine, I wouldn't take my old system back if I didn't have to. It's just about getting used to the sound and having hearing the same in people with good hearing, nobody is golden eared.

 

[Vladimir]

I did just that and employed my wife for a few evenings to blind test speaker cables. Scientific conditions... not quite but have done it. Also have performed acoustic measurements a repeatable number of times.

So may I ask what method have you used, OP? Also what speaker cables have you compared and currently use? Mine were Chord also.

What conclusions did you and your wife come to?

Couldn't reliably tell the difference. In fact I was more often wrong then right. She was only there so I don't know what cable is being used. She would unplug the cable and plug in back different/same cable each time, so I'd know if it's the same one should she not bother to change it. Bless her for that.

Not surprisingly acoustic measurements didn't show any relevant differences either. That's on the end of a modest system £5k worth (when looking at RRP).

Conclusion... there are better things you can do in a dark room with your wife :biggrin:

Or two wives if you are mormon. You can do ABX tests.

 

[lindsayt]

I've been to bake-offs where it's been highly apparent that some people were more golden eared than others. Or, with it all being relative, some people were relatively cloth-eared. There are some people that live and breath hi-fi. Designers. With many years of experience of comparing different audio equipment. I will quite happily admit that some of them are more golden eared than me. At bake-offs I've attended we've come to the same overall conclusions, but they've done it in a few seconds whilst it's taken me longer and I've been less sure of myself initially.

On the other hand I've come across some people that have not noticed, for example, the worse dynamic compression on certain modern remasters. The sort of compression that I'd hear and would bother me straight away.

I have no idea whether golden eared listening is a natural trait or an acquired skill or both.

However there is no doubt in my mind that some listeners are more golden eared than others. And that this might account for some people saying that speaker cables make no significant difference whilst others say that they do.

Also, as a huge sweeping generalisation when I look at the systems owned by golden eared listeners when compared to cloth eared listeners, the golden eared ones tend to have better systems.

I do agree that MA Silver 50's wouldn't be my choice when comparing speaker cables if I had ATC 50's that I could use instead. With £7k Naim amps, they're good, but there are some £500 new amps that would be competitive with them.

 

[insider9]

Insider9, can you confirm the system and the cables tried and are there any horror cables you used that really don't work well. See my test. Are you just using cables you like?

my system at the time of testing was (and I'm only quoting prices for comparison purposes)

- pmc twenty 23 speakers £2300

- Cyrus dac xp signature pre amp and dac : £3000

- Cyrus mono x200 signature power amps £2000 each

- Cyrus stream x signature playing flac cd ripped stuff in highest quality- £1250

- chord epic reference £150/m versus talk 3 £4/m 

Prices when new (from memory)
Red Rose Music Rosebud -
£3,000
Primare A30.1 - £1,800
Yamaha WXC-50 - £300

Chord Odyssey 2 £27.50 per meter vs Cambridge Audio Ultra 100 £5 per meter.

Also measured both against £1 per meter cables. Also had acoustic measurements taken on a garden mains cables (£2 pm) which also didn't measure any different.

As to, do I use cables I like? Since I wasn't able to reliably say nor did I see measured difference I stayed with a £5 per meter cable for passive setup. For active setup I use a garden mains cable solid core that works as well.

Interestingly enough in a blind test more often than not I though it was the more expensive cable playing when Cambridge Audio was playing. I believed I could hear the difference until then.

Here's my question then. Having spent circa £1,000 on cables do you think it would not be better to get even better speakers and buy cheaper cables?

 

[Leif]

I've been to bake-offs where it's been highly apparent that some people were more golden eared than others.

But how did they demonstrate that golden eared ability?

The link I gave has some examples where so called golden eared people were no better than others at picking out a supposedly better cable or amplifier.

Then again, I've heard people say you can't tell the difference when listening to 320 KBPS MP3 and ALAC/FLAC files, whereas to my ears there is a noticeable difference, and I certainly do not have especially good hearing.

I get the impression that so much audio equipment is made to standards of excellence that far exceed human perception, and much of the appeal is aesthetic (physically speaking). My Chord Mojo looks the mutt's nuts, which is part of the appeal. It's also works well of course.

 

[insider9]

There's no question we all hear things differently. Not just that but with more experience we listen for different things.

So cloth/golden ear debate is valid in a way that even a cloth eared audiophile with years of experience will be better at identifying some characteristics than a golden eared newbie. Newbie may hear them but won't know what's what and won't be able to "process" that information. On top of that bias plays a massive role whether we like it or not.

Whenever I compare kit the first question I ask myself is, is there a difference not whether one is better than the other. If there is a difference what is the difference before I make a judgement on which is preferred that what many people would call better.