Speaker cable

[nopiano]

I don't recall seeing this useful video about cables on these pages before. Everything becomes clearer, and funnier, if you watch it!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UQDTZcpsDE

 

[beaker_07]

Thanks everyone I think I will stick with the solid core mains cable then - I find it easy enough to bend in position. It was bought in a local builder's supplers so it will be the same as electricians use. I am going to fit banana plugs to it for convenience. I might need a more flexible cable if I install rear speakers so I could use 79 strand for that.

What are people's toughts on bi wiring I have seen arguments for and against as I have plenty of spare cable it wouldn't cost me anything to try but is it worth the bother?

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_100004211376004]

No!

 

[Al ears]

No.

 

[BigH]

Waste of time, if anything can cause phase problems.

Cables may little difference, as long as they are think enough for the length, you should not have problems, only way to test is blind.

 

[beaker_07]

So I will stick with the solid core mains cable and not bi wire my speakers then.

 

[Nu2WhatHIFI]

"What are the technical reasons why two well made cables of the same thickness could possibly sound different?"

Numerous. There are several technical reasons to consider good cabling in a system. I've adopted these suggestions from an article that I read several years ago and it has served me well:

-good quality connectors

- good quality conductors regardless of the material used

-good qualty dielectrics! (not insulators, although good dielectrics do provide some insulation)

-wire geometries that make "sense"

-craftsmanship/care putting the wires together

The keys are the care taken putting it together and using appropraite geometries and materials to make a suitable cable. Almost all cables are made either to spec or from off the shelf cable and connectors. What can alter the sound? The first is to recognize that a cable has inductance, capacitance and resistance. Any two create a filter. So all cables filter to some extent. The dielectrics used are also important. They perturb the E field associated with the signal carried by the conductor. The dielectric that perturbs the least is Teflon. So often premium cables have a Teflon dielectric/jacket. But a caveat: if you cannot hear the difference yourself, don't bother. and th materials for the conductors? to me it makes sense to use silver tinned copper, silver or copper. All can have a different effect. But if using a particular conductor in interconnects, all the cabling needs to be the same sort of cable (all copper, all silver plated copper, or all silver) throughout the system. I know many here will laugh, but it does make a difference.

I am not in the industry, but have made my own observations. Most systems simply don't have the resolution for many to hear the differences.

 

[NSA_watch_my_toilet]

I smiled.

 

[paulkebab]

Waste of time, if anything can cause phase problems

When I got my Vincent amp, they ( he, Kiri ) asked me if I was bi-wired.. I said eh? Ohh sorry misheard you lol.. anyway, he advised NOT to bi-wire because of phase and possible imbalance of power between driver/tweeter issues. Maybe thats true of a 100W+ amp but when it doesn't have to go quite so loud, it might not be a problem, I don't know. What i know for sure is I don't have any problems I could attribute to a cable so I think you need to think more 'back to basics'.

Edit.. to the OP .exactly what is missing or what do you want more of??

 

[DocG]

Most systems simply don't have the resolution for many to hear the differences.

Hi Nu2WhatHIFI, and welcome!

You understand we're all very curious now to learn about your system...

 

[andyjm]

"What are the technical reasons why two well made cables of the same thickness could possibly sound different?"

Numerous. There are several technical reasons to consider good cabling in a system. I've adopted these suggestions from an article that I read several years ago and it has served me well:

-good quality connectors

- good quality conductors regardless of the material used

-good qualty dielectrics! (not insulators, although good dielectrics do provide some insulation)

-wire geometries that make "sense"

-craftsmanship/care putting the wires together

The keys are the care taken putting it together and using appropraite geometries and materials to make a suitable cable. Almost all cables are made either to spec or from off the shelf cable and connectors. What can alter the sound? The first is to recognize that a cable has inductance, capacitance and resistance. Any two create a filter. So all cables filter to some extent. The dielectrics used are also important. They perturb the E field associated with the signal carried by the conductor. The dielectric that perturbs the least is Teflon. So often premium cables have a Teflon dielectric/jacket. But a caveat: if you cannot hear the difference yourself, don't bother. and th materials for the conductors? to me it makes sense to use silver tinned copper, silver or copper. All can have a different effect. But if using a particular conductor in interconnects, all the cabling needs to be the same sort of cable (all copper, all silver plated copper, or all silver) throughout the system. I know many here will laugh, but it does make a difference.

I am not in the industry, but have made my own observations. Most systems simply don't have the resolution for many to hear the difference.

Nu, don't believe everything you read. I am not laughing, but I think you have been mislead - and it does look like you may have fallen for "emporer's new clothes" marketing.

As I have posted elsewhere on this forum, everything makes a difference, but not everything matters. All passive components have capacitance, inductance and resistance. The question is, what matters and how much?

Rather than reading nonsense books on Hifi, a basic book on circuit theory would show that for a typical home speaker installation, the only thing that matters is cable resistance, and therefore cable size. If equations don't do it for you, there are all sorts of analysis of the maths of speaker cables on the web that reach the same conclusion - don't take my word for it, Google is your friend.

Now as for the 'you need an expensive system and sophisticated ears to hear the difference Sir' - this is the classic line from a salesman just before he tries to sell you a bi-wired solution.

"but" said the little boy, "he's wearing no clothes...."

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

Which nae sayers have had their imaginations caught by this over-priced snake oil cable?

You mean my patent Speaker Oil....???

 

[MajorFubar]

Now as for the 'you need an expensive system and sophisticated ears to hear the difference Sir' - this is the classic line from a salesman just before he tries to sell you a bi-wired solution.

Yep, commonly proceeded or preceeded by fairlyland pseudo-science with a sanctimonious underlying tone that anyone who disagrees is a peasant with a lo-fi system in no position to offer a conflicting opinion. And sure enough, our new friend's post didn't fail to satisfy.

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

why?

From the whathifi review

The Hyper 2.0 is a class-leading speaker cable that sounds superb

Rather than have me run through (again) all the technical reasons why two well made cables of the same thickness will sound the same, lets mix this up a little for a change.

What are the technical reasons why two well made cables of the same thickness could possibly sound different?

 

Different alloys. Different wire drawing processes, which effect the crystalline structure of the wires. In a multistrand cable, the number of strands, the lay pattern, lay pitch, lay tension. Use of different materials for inner and outer strands. Hollow or plastic cores around which the conductors are wrapped to maximize skin effect. Different insulation materials with different dielectric parameters. All of which effect the impedances of the cables, which are frequency sensitive. Next?

You say you don’t work for Chord, but your descriptions are typical of what they come out with, however what they don’t tell you, (And neither have you) is that none of it makes any difference to the sound in the audio band that everybody listens too. (Once again the descriptions are just a con to target the gullible, which anyone that remembers their elemental science classes can see through right away)

NOTE: If you can provide verifiable scientific proof that the details you mention do make a difference in the audio range, then please post the links, as I am always open to any verifiable scientific evidence that can be provided to challenge current scientific knowledge.

Bill

 

BTW: Bi-wiring is also a load of twaddle, plus the links provided by the manufacture will normally have a much greater CSA then the cable used to connect the speakers to the amplifier, so changing them is a complete nonsense. (Unless of course you can provide verifiable scientific proof)

 

Part of my job as a subsea engineer involves spec-ing cables for subsea control umbilicals. If the cable spec isn't right signals don't even reach the end of the cable. That's called attenuation. To compensate, signal baud rates were, in the past, restricted to as low as 900. Fine if you're just sending "valve open / valve close" commands but not good enough at all in these days of multiphase flow meters, smart wells, etc. The electrical engineers I work with go to ridiculous lengths (like 50km) to spec the cables.
I can't offer any scientific proof, and nor, I suspect, can you, that some cables sound different to others, but surely you'll recognise that the DC or steady state (likes mains electric) AC performance can be a whole lot different to transient, highly dynamic signals like music. There, impedance, not just straightforward resistance, comes into play. Impedance varies with frequency, after all, and the frequency of a speaker signal is changing all the time.
As for the brass bi-wire jumpers, just give it a try. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
One last point: the end connections' quality is probably the most important factor, right up there with cross sectional area. Any naysayers to that should try hooking their $1000 an inch unobtanium speaker cables with paper clips at one or both ends and get back to me.

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

PS.

I wouldn't put any trust in blind tests either.

Most are done using undergraduate Millennial "lab rats" raised on iPods and earbuds, laptop speakers at best. Like sticking you or me in Lewis Hamilton's Sunday drive, they couldn't tell the difference between a $50 Argos special and any high end system you care to mention. Especially since they're given preselected music to listen to and only five or ten minutes per cable. Not exactly being able to sit down and mull over a full CD, the same CD, at least half a dozen times, listening for the nuances that make all the difference. Hence the results, and hence (I believe in part at least) their enthusiasm for the vinyl revival.

 

[Andrewjvt]

Why wouldnt a cheap sufficient cable be fitted with a good connecter and with care or skill?

Dont fall for the 'hifi' bs that gets you spending loads of bucks on cables. Its a con and stops you enjoying your system. Always thinking a cable could improve it.

 

[Gaz37]

PS.

I wouldn't put any trust in blind tests either.

Most are done using undergraduate Millennial "lab rats" raised on iPods and earbuds, laptop speakers at best. Like sticking you or me in Lewis Hamilton's Sunday drive, they couldn't tell the difference between a $50 Argos special and any high end system you care to mention. Especially since they're given preselected music to listen to and only five or ten minutes per cable. Not exactly being able to sit down and mull over a full CD, the same CD, at least half a dozen times, listening for the nuances that make all the difference. Hence the results, and hence (I believe in part at least) their enthusiasm for the vinyl revival.

So you're suggesting that because I'm not a racing driver I couldn't tell an F1 car from a Ford Focus diesel?

The difference would be obvious immediately, as should the difference between £100 per metre cable and £1 per metre cable to anybody who isn't deaf.

The fact that expensive cable does badly in blind tests isn't because the subjects don't possess the audio equivalent of F1 driver skills, it's because the cables are a rip off.

 

[TrevC]

PS.

I wouldn't put any trust in blind tests either.

Most are done using undergraduate Millennial "lab rats" raised on iPods and earbuds, laptop speakers at best. Like sticking you or me in Lewis Hamilton's Sunday drive, they couldn't tell the difference between a $50 Argos special and any high end system you care to mention. Especially since they're given preselected music to listen to and only five or ten minutes per cable. Not exactly being able to sit down and mull over a full CD, the same CD, at least half a dozen times, listening for the nuances that make all the difference. Hence the results, and hence (I believe in part at least) their enthusiasm for the vinyl revival.

So you're suggesting that because I'm not a racing driver I couldn't tell an F1 car from a Ford Focus diesel?

The difference would be obvious immediately, as should the difference between £100 per metre cable and £1 per metre cable to anybody who isn't deaf.

The fact that expensive cable does badly in blind tests isn't because the subjects don't possess the audio equivalent of F1 driver skills, it's because the cables are a rip off.

Exactly. It's the same quality cable, so will invariably sound the same.

 

[BigH]

PS.

I wouldn't put any trust in blind tests either.

Most are done using undergraduate Millennial "lab rats" raised on iPods and earbuds, laptop speakers at best. Like sticking you or me in Lewis Hamilton's Sunday drive, they couldn't tell the difference between a $50 Argos special and any high end system you care to mention. Especially since they're given preselected music to listen to and only five or ten minutes per cable. Not exactly being able to sit down and mull over a full CD, the same CD, at least half a dozen times, listening for the nuances that make all the difference. Hence the results, and hence (I believe in part at least) their enthusiasm for the vinyl revival.

Some maybe but the ones I have looked at are often by musicians, sound engineers and audiophiles/hifi users/hifi reviewers. In one Hifi reviewers were the worst for getting the correct answers (think it was a cd v his res test). By blind test I meant doing yourself.