Speaker cable - Aside from thickness, does it really matter?

[Ro-Tang Clan]

Hi, i did hear the Aviano 6's when i got my Dali speakers - the Dali's were much better considering they were cheaper. I see there is not much price difference between the Aviano's and the Kef Q900 - only 100 pounds in it- do you find it much of an upgrade?

As for the speaker wire - i have experienced with various thicknesses and haven't noticed much if any differences. I'm using 6mm Van Damme Lc-ofc cable at the moment but wouldn't go for 6mm again as in reality it is a little thick to fit into binding posts on most amps and speakers. The thickest i would go for would be 4mm. Be abit careful as some makes mention the thickness but it is the whole cable in total which includes the wire plus sheilding - so not so easy to compare makes and models.

The Aviano 6's retailed at around the £500 mark, I bought them for £350 brand new a few years ago. The Kef Q900's retail for £1200 and there was a clearance deal recently at Superfi where they were going for £700 brand new. I was looking at the Dali Zensor 7's, but the Kef's were larger in size, have bigger drive units and there are more drive units too (granted two are passive radiators). The Kef's are simply in a class above the Aviano's in every way. The soundstage is also more open and vocals seem to stand out a lot more and project more too. I don't regret buying them, but I regret not asking for a side by side demo of the Zensor 7's and the Q900's as I am quite fond of the Dali's. But I rushed the purchase because they were the last pair available since they were clearance items so I didn't want to risk missing an opportunity.

Also thanks for your input on the cable thickness. Yeah I saw that some manufacturer's specifiy the thickness by the thickness of the cable in total, rather than the thickness of the wire cross section. I got caught out a couple of times by that.

 

[Ro-Tang Clan]

The Qed wire you mention is the same thickness as what you already have. The 6mm is the total thickness including jacket. So it is probably unlikely you will notice any difference from the 2.5mm cable you have already. I wouldn't bother with bi-wiring.

[/quote]

Also, I hear Bi-wiring doesn't make a difference but Bi-amping can. I hear the best way to Bi-amp is to use two separate amps, probably two mono amps. But since I'm using an AV Reciever, I just Bi-amp using one of the surround channels in the Yamaha RXA2050. I admit I've never done a blind test between regular and Bi-amped to know if it makes a difference or not. I just went straight ahead with Bi-amping right from the get-go.

 

[Frank Harvey]

I'm not trying to start an argument, I just want a clear cut answer. However I do not agree that manufacturers are trying to help us get the best out of our equipment. They're a business and if they can throw enough marketing R&D at our faces to make us believe and buy into it, then they'll make a lot of money. I'm talking specifically about the Audioquest Diamond HDMI cable that retails at £1000+ per meter. In this scenario, HDMI is digital and consists of binary data and no amount of "SOLID 100% PERFECT-SURFACE SILVER (PSS) CONDUCTORS" can change the "clarity and dynamic contrast" as they so claim it can. With digital signals, the data is either there or it isn't, end of.

Yes, they are a business, but many businesses start with a great interest in the subject matter. Depending on the qualifications or the understanding of the people or individual involved, will dictate the worth of the products the company produces. Every now and again you come across leaders in their field - Adrian Newey designing Formula 1 cars, John Whyte designing mountain bikes, Ken Kreisel producing AV speaker systems, Steve Jobs' work at Apple, and in my opinion, Bill Low of AudioQuest.

For the record, I use the DBS equipped AudioQuest Diamond HDMI from my Oppo BDP103 Bluray player to my Classé Sigma SSP processor. I didn't spend time performing any direct A/B comparisons between it and my old HDMI cables as I'm the sort of person who likes to spend my time watching films rather than messing about. Now there are a number of reasons why I went for these cables. With the Oppo being about as good as Bluray playback gets, and the sound quality of the excellent Classé processor as good as any two channel pre-amp I've heard, I know for certain that my system isn't being held back by the cables themselves; I can't improve my system for the price of one of these cables, or even two; they don't pull on the HDMI connection like my previous ones did; I am fascinated with the DBS equipped cables, which seem to just 'work'. During the first few weeks, I was convinced I could hear something I couldn't with my other HDMI cables - more to the point, it was more of what I couldn't hear. They seemed to have a lower noise floor, and lower noise floors usually allow lower level details to be heard better, or sometimes actually heard, rather than being overshadowed by noise.

Anyone who has a high quality system can try this out for themselves by trying a Diamond, and forming their own opinion on its effect within their system.

 

[plastic penguin]

Here's my take on cables. *diablo*

 

[Frank Harvey]

So I've just upgraded my speakers to the Kef Q900's from the lower end Mordaunt Short Aviano 6's. I'm using Van Damme's Tour grade Bi-wire speaker cable to my Yamaha RXA2050 AV Reciever. This cable has a cross secton area of 2.5mm and I was looking to get a thicker cable, preferably at 6mm thickness. I was looking at the QED Ruby Anniversary Edition speaker cable which was listed on a website as having a 6mm thickness, but for two 10m lengths (would be cut to make four 5m lengths for bi-amping) it would cost £60

However looking on Amazon I found I can get two 10m lengths of 10AWG cable for £20. The quality looks cheaper than the QED cable and it doesn't have any marketing spiel attached to it either, but does it really matter? Surely at the end of the day, cable is cable and the only real thing that improves the sound is thickness right? Or have I got this completely wrong? Here's the link to the cable anyway

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01J6G2N2G/ref=ox_sc_mini_detail?ie=...

I've not really read through the whole thread, but in my opinion, yes, cables can make a difference. I don't know of the cable you're currently using, so I can't really recommend anything to better it, but I have had two different speaker cables from different cable manufacturers in the past, both using different materials and production, and there was a definite difference in their presentation.

Of course, whether a cable can make a difference depends on the system itself. It's no good going for high quality cables if you're using a budget system, so in many cases, I'd say get the electronics and speakers right first, before messing about with high quality cables. A certain quality of system is needed to appreciate the full benefit of some cables. Again, my opinion.

The best thing to do is speak to your local dealer and see what he has to lend you to try out. Don't mess about with quick A/B demos. You know what your existing system sounds like, so pop a loan cable in your system and live with it for a week. Listen to it as much as possible over that period of time. Don't try listening for little things, just listen and form a general opinion of what you're hearing in comparison to how your system usually sounds. This may be enough to qualify the cables place in your system, or eliminate it from your research. If not, after a week or so, pop your old cable back in - if there's going to be any noticeable differences that didn't show up so far, this is when they'll make themselves known.

Dont worry about tech specs and materials - that's the manufacturers job to worry about - all you have to do is listen and decide.

 

[Ro-Tang Clan]

I'm not trying to start an argument, I just want a clear cut answer. However I do not agree that manufacturers are trying to help us get the best out of our equipment. They're a business and if they can throw enough marketing R&D at our faces to make us believe and buy into it, then they'll make a lot of money. I'm talking specifically about the Audioquest Diamond HDMI cable that retails at £1000+ per meter. In this scenario, HDMI is digital and consists of binary data and no amount of "SOLID 100% PERFECT-SURFACE SILVER (PSS) CONDUCTORS" can change the "clarity and dynamic contrast" as they so claim it can. With digital signals, the data is either there or it isn't, end of.

Yes, they are a business, but many businesses start with a great interest in the subject matter. Depending on the qualifications or the understanding of the people or individual involved, will dictate the worth of the products the company produces. Every now and again you come across leaders in their field - Adrian Newey designing Formula 1 cars, John Whyte designing mountain bikes, Ken Kreisel producing AV speaker systems, Steve Jobs' work at Apple, and in my opinion, Bill Low of AudioQuest.

For the record, I use the DBS equipped AudioQuest Diamond HDMI from my Oppo BDP103 Bluray player to my Classé Sigma SSP processor. I didn't spend time performing any direct A/B comparisons between it and my old HDMI cables as I'm the sort of person who likes to spend my time watching films rather than messing about. Now there are a number of reasons why I went for these cables. With the Oppo being about as good as Bluray playback gets, and the sound quality of the excellent Classé processor as good as any two channel pre-amp I've heard, I know for certain that my system isn't being held back by the cables themselves; I can't improve my system for the price of one of these cables, or even two; they don't pull on the HDMI connection like my previous ones did; I am fascinated with the DBS equipped cables, which seem to just 'work'. During the first few weeks, I was convinced I could hear something I couldn't with my other HDMI cables - more to the point, it was more of what I couldn't hear. They seemed to have a lower noise floor, and lower noise floors usually allow lower level details to be heard better, or sometimes actually heard, rather than being overshadowed by noise.

Anyone who has a high quality system can try this out for themselves by trying a Diamond, and forming their own opinion on its effect within their system.

The problem with 'just listening' to cable is people can get themselves into the placebo effect which is apparent in your post regarding HDMI cables. As I said before, HDMI is a digital cable that sends a set amount of binary data from it's source to it's destination. You can't hear more or less from using different HDMI cables because each cable, as long as it's the same cable version) carries the same amount of data from it's source to destination. If you bought two HDMI High Speed cables that were 1m in length, ones costs £2 and the other costing £150 there will be absolutely no difference whatsoever in audio or visual quality between the two. There are no shades of quality or varying degrees of audio and visual quality with HDMI, the data is either there or it isn't there i.e. it either works or it doesn't work.

This is why I won't loan cables to listen or have demo's of different cables. People absolutely convince themselves they can hear a difference to the point that it's all in their head. It's like if a doctor gave you a vial and told you to take it twice daily whenever you're sad and it will make you feel happy. You'd have trust and faith in your doctor to the point where it probably would make you happy, but unbeknown to you the vial is actually just filled with water.

The placebo effect is why I don't trust people's opinions when they just 'listen' and 'hear' a difference in speaker cable. Of course they can hear a difference because they believe in it so much and convinced themselves they can. But where's the factual solid evidence?

 

[plastic penguin]

I'm not trying to start an argument, I just want a clear cut answer. However I do not agree that manufacturers are trying to help us get the best out of our equipment. They're a business and if they can throw enough marketing R&D at our faces to make us believe and buy into it, then they'll make a lot of money. I'm talking specifically about the Audioquest Diamond HDMI cable that retails at £1000+ per meter. In this scenario, HDMI is digital and consists of binary data and no amount of "SOLID 100% PERFECT-SURFACE SILVER (PSS) CONDUCTORS" can change the "clarity and dynamic contrast" as they so claim it can. With digital signals, the data is either there or it isn't, end of.

Yes, they are a business, but many businesses start with a great interest in the subject matter. Depending on the qualifications or the understanding of the people or individual involved, will dictate the worth of the products the company produces. Every now and again you come across leaders in their field - Adrian Newey designing Formula 1 cars, John Whyte designing mountain bikes, Ken Kreisel producing AV speaker systems, Steve Jobs' work at Apple, and in my opinion, Bill Low of AudioQuest.

For the record, I use the DBS equipped AudioQuest Diamond HDMI from my Oppo BDP103 Bluray player to my Classé Sigma SSP processor. I didn't spend time performing any direct A/B comparisons between it and my old HDMI cables as I'm the sort of person who likes to spend my time watching films rather than messing about. Now there are a number of reasons why I went for these cables. With the Oppo being about as good as Bluray playback gets, and the sound quality of the excellent Classé processor as good as any two channel pre-amp I've heard, I know for certain that my system isn't being held back by the cables themselves; I can't improve my system for the price of one of these cables, or even two; they don't pull on the HDMI connection like my previous ones did; I am fascinated with the DBS equipped cables, which seem to just 'work'. During the first few weeks, I was convinced I could hear something I couldn't with my other HDMI cables - more to the point, it was more of what I couldn't hear. They seemed to have a lower noise floor, and lower noise floors usually allow lower level details to be heard better, or sometimes actually heard, rather than being overshadowed by noise.

Anyone who has a high quality system can try this out for themselves by trying a Diamond, and forming their own opinion on its effect within their system.

The problem with 'just listening' to cable is people can get themselves into the placebo effect which is apparent in your post regarding HDMI cables. As I said before, HDMI is a digital cable that sends a set amount of binary data from it's source to it's destination. You can't hear more or less from using different HDMI cables because each cable, as long as it's the same cable version) carries the same amount of data from it's source to destination. If you bought two HDMI High Speed cables that were 1m in length, ones costs £2 and the other costing £150 there will be absolutely no difference whatsoever in audio or visual quality between the two. There are no shades of quality or varying degrees of audio and visual quality with HDMI, the data is either there or it isn't there i.e. it either works or it doesn't work.

This is why I won't loan cables to listen or have demo's of different cables. People absolutely convince themselves they can hear a difference to the point that it's all in their head. It's like if a doctor gave you a vial and told you to take it twice daily whenever you're sad and it will make you feel happy. You'd have trust and faith in your doctor to the point where it probably would make you happy, but unbeknown to you the vial is actually just filled with water.

The placebo effect is why I don't trust people's opinions when they just 'listen' and 'hear' a difference in speaker cable. Of course they can hear a difference because they believe in it so much and convinced themselves they can. But where's the factual solid evidence?

If you think it's a placebo effect then just stick with your existing cables.

It's a placebo if people keep banging on about a certain product: They brainwash you. However, if you go to a proper dealer and choose two cables of your choice and then you can decide whether one cable gives you sufficent uplift over the other. That's not placebo, that's your decision -- a big difference.

 

[drummerman]

I'm not trying to start an argument, I just want a clear cut answer. However I do not agree that manufacturers are trying to help us get the best out of our equipment. They're a business and if they can throw enough marketing R&D at our faces to make us believe and buy into it, then they'll make a lot of money. I'm talking specifically about the Audioquest Diamond HDMI cable that retails at £1000+ per meter. In this scenario, HDMI is digital and consists of binary data and no amount of "SOLID 100% PERFECT-SURFACE SILVER (PSS) CONDUCTORS" can change the "clarity and dynamic contrast" as they so claim it can. With digital signals, the data is either there or it isn't, end of.

Yes, they are a business, but many businesses start with a great interest in the subject matter. Depending on the qualifications or the understanding of the people or individual involved, will dictate the worth of the products the company produces. Every now and again you come across leaders in their field - Adrian Newey designing Formula 1 cars, John Whyte designing mountain bikes, Ken Kreisel producing AV speaker systems, Steve Jobs' work at Apple, and in my opinion, Bill Low of AudioQuest.

For the record, I use the DBS equipped AudioQuest Diamond HDMI from my Oppo BDP103 Bluray player to my Classé Sigma SSP processor. I didn't spend time performing any direct A/B comparisons between it and my old HDMI cables as I'm the sort of person who likes to spend my time watching films rather than messing about. Now there are a number of reasons why I went for these cables. With the Oppo being about as good as Bluray playback gets, and the sound quality of the excellent Classé processor as good as any two channel pre-amp I've heard, I know for certain that my system isn't being held back by the cables themselves; I can't improve my system for the price of one of these cables, or even two; they don't pull on the HDMI connection like my previous ones did; I am fascinated with the DBS equipped cables, which seem to just 'work'. During the first few weeks, I was convinced I could hear something I couldn't with my other HDMI cables - more to the point, it was more of what I couldn't hear. They seemed to have a lower noise floor, and lower noise floors usually allow lower level details to be heard better, or sometimes actually heard, rather than being overshadowed by noise.

Anyone who has a high quality system can try this out for themselves by trying a Diamond, and forming their own opinion on its effect within their system.

The problem with 'just listening' to cable is people can get themselves into the placebo effect which is apparent in your post regarding HDMI cables. As I said before, HDMI is a digital cable that sends a set amount of binary data from it's source to it's destination. You can't hear more or less from using different HDMI cables because each cable, as long as it's the same cable version) carries the same amount of data from it's source to destination. If you bought two HDMI High Speed cables that were 1m in length, ones costs £2 and the other costing £150 there will be absolutely no difference whatsoever in audio or visual quality between the two. There are no shades of quality or varying degrees of audio and visual quality with HDMI, the data is either there or it isn't there i.e. it either works or it doesn't work.

This is why I won't loan cables to listen or have demo's of different cables. People absolutely convince themselves they can hear a difference to the point that it's all in their head. It's like if a doctor gave you a vial and told you to take it twice daily whenever you're sad and it will make you feel happy. You'd have trust and faith in your doctor to the point where it probably would make you happy, but unbeknown to you the vial is actually just filled with water.

The placebo effect is why I don't trust people's opinions when they just 'listen' and 'hear' a difference in speaker cable. Of course they can hear a difference because they believe in it so much and convinced themselves they can. But where's the factual solid evidence?

So why start this thread in the first place and ask the question?

I go back to the comments I made about you a page back, thinking you'd rather stir than seek answers. You are clearly in the 'unless its measurable its not audible' side of the argument, as I had a suspicion from some of the wordings used in your opening thread ... .

For what its worth, there are clear differences in measurements for analogue cables, you only have to read cable lab tests conducted by PM. I go further and say even certain digital cables can influence the signal.

Case in point is a recently acquired Hifime ESS DAC with a cheap, super thin Toslink cable (plus adapter) enclosed. Changing this to a QED Graphite subtly but unmistakenly changed the sound for the better.

I think you already made your mind up about speaker cables before even starting this thread. So instead of finding out for yourself you close your mind.

Never mind

 

[Matte]

I just somehow lost my post so I'll try to be more succinct.

but it's how you make your decision that makes the big difference.

People seem to find the word placebo derogatory. I feel 'cognitive bias' is better ( before the pedant police get me I know there are not equivalent).

Unless the test has some measure of scientific methodology it's not valid.

People can always say what they think a difference is and everyone is entitled to their opinions but not their facts.

You cannot overcome your bias, it would have to be a double blind ABX test.

You cannot swap the cables own your own, and trust your conclusions. The industry probably thrives on the cognitive bias effect.

I liken it to wine, if you read the label first and it's says the wine has notes of 'dark chocolate' and then you taste it, can you trust your senses - have you been influenced. If you think you taste chocolate before reading the label that label would then support your observations.

We may all have some thoughts that cables could make a difference and for example, that silver is 'brighter' - is it? Has this been measured ?

It's been proven that our senses can be fooled, to include sight, hearing and taste.

The best example IS HDMI picture quality, which cannot be altered (using the technology involved) by the cable, unless it's drop out which is easily observed. Isn't the more interesting question, why do we think we see a difference, when there isn't any. Even group cognitive bias has been shown.

Im not saying it's all snake oil, but one must by weary, not cynical, but use critical thinking. And this should apply to all walks of life.

We are not measurement equipment, no matter how sensitive the ear is proven to be, our observations need to be within a controlled test environment.

Matt

 

[Matte]

Yes it's win win in that example. But what if the doctor was wrong in the diagnosis and the placebo effect was temporary and then the patient died from an illness unrelated to the depression.

In fact that is the worry around snake oil medical remedies, taken by people who believe misinformation.

Homeopathic medicines being a prime example. They are all placebo and thus dangerous.

 

[chebby]

People absolutely convince themselves they can hear a difference to the point that it's all in their head. It's like if a doctor gave you a vial and told you to take it twice daily whenever you're sad and it will make you feel happy. You'd have trust and faith in your doctor to the point where it probably would make you happy, but unbeknown to you the vial is actually just filled with water.

I don't see anything wrong with that particular example. The doctor has made a sad person happy with water. Great!

Cheap and effective. Who could possibly begrudge the patient their new-found happiness, or criticise the doctor for saving the tax payer from the expense of prescribing drugs?

Win win.

I don't know to what degree placebos are at work in the overall enjoyment of my system (I haven't had every single component and cable double-blind-tested) but enjoy it I do.

As for speaker cable, I am using Van Damme UP-LCOFC 4mm (terminated with soldered plugs) and MK 646WHI Safety Plugs and use them wherever possible. That's partly 'aesthetic' and partly 'tradition' and partly because they are really good quality plugs. (Standard issue from an electrical wholesaler and NOT from some 'poncey' foo shop where they could have compromised it's electrical integrity.)

 

[drummerman]

We are not measurement equipment, no matter how sensitive the ear is proven to be, our observations need to be within a controlled test environment.

Matt

Nop. I'd rather listen at home ... .

 

[insider9]

I'm not tryying to start an argument, I just want a clear cut answer. However I do not agree that manufacturers are trying to help us get the best out of our equipment. They're a business and if they can throw enough marketing R&D at our faces to make us believe and buy into it, then they'll make a lot of money. I'm talking specifically about the Audioquest Diamond HDMI cable that retails at £1000+ per meter. In this scenario, HDMI is digital and consists of binary data and no amount of "SOLID 100% PERFECT-SURFACE SILVER (PSS) CONDUCTORS" can change the "clarity and dynamic contrast" as they so claim it can. With digital signals, the data is either there or it isn't, end of.

 

Yes, they are a business, but many businesses start with a great interest in the subject matter. Depending on the qualifications or the understanding of the people or individual involved, will dictate the worth of the products the company produces. Every now and again you come across leaders in their field - Adrian Newey designing Formula 1 cars, John Whyte designing mountain bikes, Ken Kreisel producing AV speaker systems, Steve Jobs' work at Apple, and in my opinion, Bill Low of AudioQuest. 

 

For the record, I use the DBS equipped AudioQuest Diamond HDMI from my Oppo BDP103 Bluray player to my Classé Sigma SSP processor. I didn't spend time performing any direct A/B comparisons between it and my old HDMI cables as I'm the sort of person who likes to spend my time watching films rather than messing about. Now there are a number of reasons why I went for these cables. With the Oppo being about as good as Bluray playback gets, and the sound quality of the excellent Classé processor as good as any two channel pre-amp I've heard, I know for certain that my system isn't being held back by the cables themselves; I can't improve my system for the price of one of these cables, or even two; they don't pull on the HDMI connection like my previous ones did; I am fascinated with the DBS equipped cables, which seem to just 'work'. During the first few weeks, I was convinced I could hear something I couldn't with my other HDMI cables - more to the point, it was more of what I couldn't hear. They seemed to have a lower noise floor, and lower noise floors usually allow lower level details to be heard better, or sometimes actually heard, rather than being overshadowed by noise.

Anyone who has a high quality system can try this out for themselves by trying a Diamond, and forming their own opinion on its effect within their system. 

The problem with 'just listening' to cable is people can get themselves into the placebo effect which is apparent in your post regarding HDMI cables. As I said before, HDMI is a digital cable that sends a set amount of binary data from it's source to it's destination. You can't hear more or less from using different HDMI cables because each cable, as long as it's the same cable version) carries the same amount of data from it's source to destination. If you bought two HDMI High Speed cables that were 1m in length, ones costs £2 and the other costing £150 there will be absolutely no difference whatsoever in audio or visual quality between the two. There are no shades of quality or varying degrees of audio and visual quality with HDMI, the data is either there or it isn't there i.e. it either works or it doesn't work.

This is why I won't loan cables to listen or have demo's of different cables. People absolutely convince themselves they can hear a difference to the point that it's all in their head. It's like if a doctor gave you a vial and told you to take it twice daily whenever you're sad and it will make you feel happy. You'd have trust and faith in your doctor to the point where it probably would make you happy, but unbeknown to you the vial is actually just filled with water.

The placebo effect is why I don't trust people's opinions when they just 'listen' and 'hear' a difference in speaker cable. Of course they can hear a difference because they believe in it so much and convinced themselves they can. But where's the factual solid evidence?

So why start this thread in the first place and ask the question?

I go back to the comments I made about you a page back, thinking you'd rather stir than seek answers. You are clearly in the 'unless its measurable its not audible' side of the argument, as I had a suspicion from some of the wordings used in your opening thread ... .

For what its worth, there are clear differences in measurements for analogue cables, you only have to read cable lab tests conducted by PM. I go further and say even certain digital cables can influence the signal.

Case in point is a recently acquired Hifime ESS DAC with a cheap, super thin Toslink cable (plus adapter) enclosed. Changing this to a QED Graphite subtly but unmistakenly changed the sound for the better.

I think you already made your mind up about speaker cables before even starting this thread. So instead of finding out for yourself you close your mind.

Never mind

+1

 

[chebby]

Yes it's win win in that example. But what if the doctor was wrong in the diagnosis and the placebo effect was temporary and then the patient died from an illness unrelated to the depression.

That just tells me you might actually need to lay off the medical manuals/websites/Daily Mail - permanently - then get a medical arranged with your GP. You are obviously pre-disposed to seeing the worst possible outcome.

(Drinking less of that 'chocolate wine' might help too!)

 

[Ro-Tang Clan]

I just somehow lost my post so I'll try to be more succinct.

but it's how you make your decision that makes the big difference.

People seem to find the word placebo derogatory. I feel 'cognitive bias' is better ( before the pedant police get me I know there are not equivalent).

Unless the test has some measure of scientific methodology it's not valid.

People can always say what they think a difference is and everyone is entitled to their opinions but not their facts.

You cannot overcome your bias, it would have to be a double blind ABX test.

You cannot swap the cables own your own, and trust your conclusions. The industry probably thrives on the cognitive bias effect.

I liken it to wine, if you read the label first and it's says the wine has notes of 'dark chocolate' and then you taste it, can you trust your senses - have you been influenced. If you think you taste chocolate before reading the label that label would then support your observations.

We may all have some thoughts that cables could make a difference and for example, that silver is 'brighter' - is it? Has this been measured ?

It's been proven that our senses can be fooled, to include sight, hearing and taste.

The best example IS HDMI picture quality, which cannot be altered (using the technology involved) by the cable, unless it's drop out which is easily observed. Isn't the more interesting question, why do we think we see a difference, when there isn't any. Even group cognitive bias has been shown.

Im not saying it's all snake oil, but one must by weary, not cynical, but use critical thinking. And this should apply to all walks of life.

We are not measurement equipment, no matter how sensitive the ear is proven to be, our observations need to be within a controlled test environment.

Matt

Thank you! At least someone who see's sense. Our cognitive sense can be fooled and all to easily. If not fooled, then influenced as you put it, may be a better term to use. If It can't be scientifically measured and validated then it's all BS in my books.

 

[Ro-Tang Clan]

I'm not trying to start an argument, I just want a clear cut answer. However I do not agree that manufacturers are trying to help us get the best out of our equipment. They're a business and if they can throw enough marketing R&D at our faces to make us believe and buy into it, then they'll make a lot of money. I'm talking specifically about the Audioquest Diamond HDMI cable that retails at £1000+ per meter. In this scenario, HDMI is digital and consists of binary data and no amount of "SOLID 100% PERFECT-SURFACE SILVER (PSS) CONDUCTORS" can change the "clarity and dynamic contrast" as they so claim it can. With digital signals, the data is either there or it isn't, end of.

Yes, they are a business, but many businesses start with a great interest in the subject matter. Depending on the qualifications or the understanding of the people or individual involved, will dictate the worth of the products the company produces. Every now and again you come across leaders in their field - Adrian Newey designing Formula 1 cars, John Whyte designing mountain bikes, Ken Kreisel producing AV speaker systems, Steve Jobs' work at Apple, and in my opinion, Bill Low of AudioQuest.

For the record, I use the DBS equipped AudioQuest Diamond HDMI from my Oppo BDP103 Bluray player to my Classé Sigma SSP processor. I didn't spend time performing any direct A/B comparisons between it and my old HDMI cables as I'm the sort of person who likes to spend my time watching films rather than messing about. Now there are a number of reasons why I went for these cables. With the Oppo being about as good as Bluray playback gets, and the sound quality of the excellent Classé processor as good as any two channel pre-amp I've heard, I know for certain that my system isn't being held back by the cables themselves; I can't improve my system for the price of one of these cables, or even two; they don't pull on the HDMI connection like my previous ones did; I am fascinated with the DBS equipped cables, which seem to just 'work'. During the first few weeks, I was convinced I could hear something I couldn't with my other HDMI cables - more to the point, it was more of what I couldn't hear. They seemed to have a lower noise floor, and lower noise floors usually allow lower level details to be heard better, or sometimes actually heard, rather than being overshadowed by noise.

Anyone who has a high quality system can try this out for themselves by trying a Diamond, and forming their own opinion on its effect within their system.

The problem with 'just listening' to cable is people can get themselves into the placebo effect which is apparent in your post regarding HDMI cables. As I said before, HDMI is a digital cable that sends a set amount of binary data from it's source to it's destination. You can't hear more or less from using different HDMI cables because each cable, as long as it's the same cable version) carries the same amount of data from it's source to destination. If you bought two HDMI High Speed cables that were 1m in length, ones costs £2 and the other costing £150 there will be absolutely no difference whatsoever in audio or visual quality between the two. There are no shades of quality or varying degrees of audio and visual quality with HDMI, the data is either there or it isn't there i.e. it either works or it doesn't work.

This is why I won't loan cables to listen or have demo's of different cables. People absolutely convince themselves they can hear a difference to the point that it's all in their head. It's like if a doctor gave you a vial and told you to take it twice daily whenever you're sad and it will make you feel happy. You'd have trust and faith in your doctor to the point where it probably would make you happy, but unbeknown to you the vial is actually just filled with water.

The placebo effect is why I don't trust people's opinions when they just 'listen' and 'hear' a difference in speaker cable. Of course they can hear a difference because they believe in it so much and convinced themselves they can. But where's the factual solid evidence?

So why start this thread in the first place and ask the question?

I go back to the comments I made about you a page back, thinking you'd rather stir than seek answers. You are clearly in the 'unless its measurable its not audible' side of the argument, as I had a suspicion from some of the wordings used in your opening thread ... .

For what its worth, there are clear differences in measurements for analogue cables, you only have to read cable lab tests conducted by PM. I go further and say even certain digital cables can influence the signal.

Case in point is a recently acquired Hifime ESS DAC with a cheap, super thin Toslink cable (plus adapter) enclosed. Changing this to a QED Graphite subtly but unmistakenly changed the sound for the better.

I think you already made your mind up about speaker cables before even starting this thread. So instead of finding out for yourself you close your mind.

Never mind

I started this thread for a genuine reason, to what else aside from thickness, influences the sound and if so, by how much? Now I'm looking for factual conclusive evidence. You know, resistance, ohms, formula's etc - scientific calculations that can be repeated and measured and shown in a real world environment. I know this can be applied to cable thickness but I didn't know if it applied to anything else.

If someone said "during the manufacturing process of a cable, if it has been twisted and braided in THIS way using THESE materials, you can expect at least a 30% improvement in frequencies between 7KHz and 22KHz. This happens because of THIS formula. This has also been tested by several bodies using THIS measurement equipment and can effect real world performance. The studies of which are below [posts links of studies]"

Now THAT is what I'm looking for because A) You know exactly WHAT causes the improvement in sound quality. B ) You know HOW much improvement it gives C) It can be measured scientifically D) It has been tested by several bodies who have all found the same results and E) It can be replicated in a real world scenario and not just 'in a perfect test lab in these conditions' environment.

You can't just say you 'hear' an improvement and call it a day. Your ears aren't accurate enough and can't be trusted. I wouldn't trust myself to just 'hear' the difference either. You might as well say those high end cables have been sprinkled with pixie dust and you can definately hear the difference, honest! Unless it can be measured and it can be studied, I'm not buying into it.

 

[Matte]

I'll bite and sorry I've note quoted the poster I'm replying to, I though I did (added in edit)

Or course.

But if you are trying to compare components then the conditions need to be controlled.

Your home can be the test environment.

You just can't 'test' cables by switching them yourself.

Which was the subject matter.

For something as different as two pairs of speakers, the difference may not be subtle and one can generally say which is preferred.

cognitive bias cannot be argued against.

 

[Matte]

Yes it's win win in that example. But what if the doctor was wrong in the diagnosis and the placebo effect was temporary and then the patient died from an illness unrelated to the depression.

That just tells me you might actually need to lay off the medical manuals/websites/Daily Mail - permanently - then get a medical arranged with your GP. You are obviously pre-disposed to seeing the worst possible outcome.

(Drinking less of that 'chocolate wine' might help too!)

I have absolutely no idea what you are on about? But I am deeply offended and insulted you infer that I read the Daily Rag.

 

[drummerman]

I'm not trying to start an argument, I just want a clear cut answer. However I do not agree that manufacturers are trying to help us get the best out of our equipment. They're a business and if they can throw enough marketing R&D at our faces to make us believe and buy into it, then they'll make a lot of money. I'm talking specifically about the Audioquest Diamond HDMI cable that retails at £1000+ per meter. In this scenario, HDMI is digital and consists of binary data and no amount of "SOLID 100% PERFECT-SURFACE SILVER (PSS) CONDUCTORS" can change the "clarity and dynamic contrast" as they so claim it can. With digital signals, the data is either there or it isn't, end of.

 

Yes, they are a business, but many businesses start with a great interest in the subject matter. Depending on the qualifications or the understanding of the people or individual involved, will dictate the worth of the products the company produces. Every now and again you come across leaders in their field - Adrian Newey designing Formula 1 cars, John Whyte designing mountain bikes, Ken Kreisel producing AV speaker systems, Steve Jobs' work at Apple, and in my opinion, Bill Low of AudioQuest. 

 

For the record, I use the DBS equipped AudioQuest Diamond HDMI from my Oppo BDP103 Bluray player to my Classé Sigma SSP processor. I didn't spend time performing any direct A/B comparisons between it and my old HDMI cables as I'm the sort of person who likes to spend my time watching films rather than messing about. Now there are a number of reasons why I went for these cables. With the Oppo being about as good as Bluray playback gets, and the sound quality of the excellent Classé processor as good as any two channel pre-amp I've heard, I know for certain that my system isn't being held back by the cables themselves; I can't improve my system for the price of one of these cables, or even two; they don't pull on the HDMI connection like my previous ones did; I am fascinated with the DBS equipped cables, which seem to just 'work'. During the first few weeks, I was convinced I could hear something I couldn't with my other HDMI cables - more to the point, it was more of what I couldn't hear. They seemed to have a lower noise floor, and lower noise floors usually allow lower level details to be heard better, or sometimes actually heard, rather than being overshadowed by noise.

Anyone who has a high quality system can try this out for themselves by trying a Diamond, and forming their own opinion on its effect within their system. 

The problem with 'just listening' to cable is people can get themselves into the placebo effect which is apparent in your post regarding HDMI cables. As I said before, HDMI is a digital cable that sends a set amount of binary data from it's source to it's destination. You can't hear more or less from using different HDMI cables because each cable, as long as it's the same cable version) carries the same amount of data from it's source to destination. If you bought two HDMI High Speed cables that were 1m in length, ones costs £2 and the other costing £150 there will be absolutely no difference whatsoever in audio or visual quality between the two. There are no shades of quality or varying degrees of audio and visual quality with HDMI, the data is either there or it isn't there i.e. it either works or it doesn't work.

This is why I won't loan cables to listen or have demo's of different cables. People absolutely convince themselves they can hear a difference to the point that it's all in their head. It's like if a doctor gave you a vial and told you to take it twice daily whenever you're sad and it will make you feel happy. You'd have trust and faith in your doctor to the point where it probably would make you happy, but unbeknown to you the vial is actually just filled with water.

The placebo effect is why I don't trust people's opinions when they just 'listen' and 'hear' a difference in speaker cable. Of course they can hear a difference because they believe in it so much and convinced themselves they can. But where's the factual solid evidence?

So why start this thread in the first place and ask the question?

I go back to the comments I made about you a page back, thinking you'd rather stir than seek answers. You are clearly in the 'unless its measurable its not audible' side of the argument, as I had a suspicion from some of the wordings used in your opening thread ... .

For what its worth, there are clear differences in measurements for analogue cables, you only have to read cable lab tests conducted by PM. I go further and say even certain digital cables can influence the signal.

Case in point is a recently acquired Hifime ESS DAC with a cheap, super thin Toslink cable (plus adapter) enclosed. Changing this to a QED Graphite subtly but unmistakenly changed the sound for the better.

I think you already made your mind up about speaker cables before even starting this thread. So instead of finding out for yourself you close your mind.

Never mind

 

I started this thread for a genuine reason, to what else aside from thickness, influences the sound and if so, by how much? Now I'm looking for factual conclusive evidence. You know, resistance, ohms, formula's etc - scientific calculations that can be repeated and measured and shown in a real world environment. I know this can be applied to cable thickness but I didn't know if it applied to anything else.

If someone said "during the manufacturing process of a cable, if it has been twisted and braided in THIS way using THESE materials, you can expect at least a 30% improvement in frequencies between 7KHz and 22KHz. This happens because of THIS formula. This has also been tested by several bodies using THIS measurement equipment and can effect real world performance. The studies of which are below [posts links of studies]"

Now THAT is what I'm looking for because A) You know exactly WHAT causes the improvement in sound quality. B ) You know HOW much improvement it gives C) It can be measured scientifically D) It has been tested by several bodies who have all found the same results and E) It can be replicated in a real world scenario and not just 'in a perfect test lab in these conditions' environment.

You can't just say you 'hear' an improvement and call it a day. Your ears aren't accurate enough and can't be trusted. I wouldn't trust myself to just 'hear' the difference either. You might as well say those high end cables have been sprinkled with pixie dust and you can definately hear the difference, honest! Unless it can be measured and it can be studied, I'm not buying into it.

Quite a change in tone. In fact you now read like ...

I am now bored ant can't be arsed to engage any further.

 

[chebby]

I'm all for objective, scientific testing of products but I don't want to be the guy with pencils in the pocket of his lab-coat (or the Guinea pig) thanks.

Let's just have the measurements and test results from manufacturers and from hi-fi magazines please.

Never going to happen? Of course not. Foo/boutique cable marketeers don't have anything 'unique' (or superior) they can actually demonstrate and hi-fi magazines don't have the test equipment (or qualified staff) to challenge manufacturer's claims. We just get fed subjective BS based on 1. some dude's mood that day. 2. Cut and paste of Foo company's pseudo-technical marketing splurge.

Our educational system is at fault too. If someone like Barry Fox was let loose in a proper lab with these cables, 95 percent of readers would not understand wtf he was writing about afterwards (unlike 40 years ago when our dad's would have got it fine, or 50 years ago when large chunks of the readership were building all - or part - of their own systems themselves from kits, plans and circuit diagrams!)

So I am sticking with affordable, decent gauge, multi-stranded, OFC copper cables and (again) affordable digital cables (ethernet and HDMI and optical) from Belkin and bought from proper retail outlets so I know it's all genuine and made to the appropriate standards.

 

[Ro-Tang Clan]

I'm not trying to start an argument, I just want a clear cut answer. However I do not agree that manufacturers are trying to help us get the best out of our equipment. They're a business and if they can throw enough marketing R&D at our faces to make us believe and buy into it, then they'll make a lot of money. I'm talking specifically about the Audioquest Diamond HDMI cable that retails at £1000+ per meter. In this scenario, HDMI is digital and consists of binary data and no amount of "SOLID 100% PERFECT-SURFACE SILVER (PSS) CONDUCTORS" can change the "clarity and dynamic contrast" as they so claim it can. With digital signals, the data is either there or it isn't, end of.

Yes, they are a business, but many businesses start with a great interest in the subject matter. Depending on the qualifications or the understanding of the people or individual involved, will dictate the worth of the products the company produces. Every now and again you come across leaders in their field - Adrian Newey designing Formula 1 cars, John Whyte designing mountain bikes, Ken Kreisel producing AV speaker systems, Steve Jobs' work at Apple, and in my opinion, Bill Low of AudioQuest.

For the record, I use the DBS equipped AudioQuest Diamond HDMI from my Oppo BDP103 Bluray player to my Classé Sigma SSP processor. I didn't spend time performing any direct A/B comparisons between it and my old HDMI cables as I'm the sort of person who likes to spend my time watching films rather than messing about. Now there are a number of reasons why I went for these cables. With the Oppo being about as good as Bluray playback gets, and the sound quality of the excellent Classé processor as good as any two channel pre-amp I've heard, I know for certain that my system isn't being held back by the cables themselves; I can't improve my system for the price of one of these cables, or even two; they don't pull on the HDMI connection like my previous ones did; I am fascinated with the DBS equipped cables, which seem to just 'work'. During the first few weeks, I was convinced I could hear something I couldn't with my other HDMI cables - more to the point, it was more of what I couldn't hear. They seemed to have a lower noise floor, and lower noise floors usually allow lower level details to be heard better, or sometimes actually heard, rather than being overshadowed by noise.

Anyone who has a high quality system can try this out for themselves by trying a Diamond, and forming their own opinion on its effect within their system.

The problem with 'just listening' to cable is people can get themselves into the placebo effect which is apparent in your post regarding HDMI cables. As I said before, HDMI is a digital cable that sends a set amount of binary data from it's source to it's destination. You can't hear more or less from using different HDMI cables because each cable, as long as it's the same cable version) carries the same amount of data from it's source to destination. If you bought two HDMI High Speed cables that were 1m in length, ones costs £2 and the other costing £150 there will be absolutely no difference whatsoever in audio or visual quality between the two. There are no shades of quality or varying degrees of audio and visual quality with HDMI, the data is either there or it isn't there i.e. it either works or it doesn't work.

This is why I won't loan cables to listen or have demo's of different cables. People absolutely convince themselves they can hear a difference to the point that it's all in their head. It's like if a doctor gave you a vial and told you to take it twice daily whenever you're sad and it will make you feel happy. You'd have trust and faith in your doctor to the point where it probably would make you happy, but unbeknown to you the vial is actually just filled with water.

The placebo effect is why I don't trust people's opinions when they just 'listen' and 'hear' a difference in speaker cable. Of course they can hear a difference because they believe in it so much and convinced themselves they can. But where's the factual solid evidence?

So why start this thread in the first place and ask the question?

I go back to the comments I made about you a page back, thinking you'd rather stir than seek answers. You are clearly in the 'unless its measurable its not audible' side of the argument, as I had a suspicion from some of the wordings used in your opening thread ... .

For what its worth, there are clear differences in measurements for analogue cables, you only have to read cable lab tests conducted by PM. I go further and say even certain digital cables can influence the signal.

Case in point is a recently acquired Hifime ESS DAC with a cheap, super thin Toslink cable (plus adapter) enclosed. Changing this to a QED Graphite subtly but unmistakenly changed the sound for the better.

I think you already made your mind up about speaker cables before even starting this thread. So instead of finding out for yourself you close your mind.

Never mind

I started this thread for a genuine reason, to what else aside from thickness, influences the sound and if so, by how much? Now I'm looking for factual conclusive evidence. You know, resistance, ohms, formula's etc - scientific calculations that can be repeated and measured and shown in a real world environment. I know this can be applied to cable thickness but I didn't know if it applied to anything else.

If someone said "during the manufacturing process of a cable, if it has been twisted and braided in THIS way using THESE materials, you can expect at least a 30% improvement in frequencies between 7KHz and 22KHz. This happens because of THIS formula. This has also been tested by several bodies using THIS measurement equipment and can effect real world performance. The studies of which are below [posts links of studies]"

Now THAT is what I'm looking for because A) You know exactly WHAT causes the improvement in sound quality. B ) You know HOW much improvement it gives C) It can be measured scientifically D) It has been tested by several bodies who have all found the same results and E) It can be replicated in a real world scenario and not just 'in a perfect test lab in these conditions' environment.

You can't just say you 'hear' an improvement and call it a day. Your ears aren't accurate enough and can't be trusted. I wouldn't trust myself to just 'hear' the difference either. You might as well say those high end cables have been sprinkled with pixie dust and you can definately hear the difference, honest! Unless it can be measured and it can be studied, I'm not buying into it.

Quite a change in tone. In fact you now read like ...

I am now bored ant can't be arsed to engage any further.

No, It's not that I can't be arsed to engage any further (unless you was referring to yourself) it's that no-one can actually provide evidence to backup their claims. Ever hear of HDTV Test? They use proper measurement equipment and show us the statistics and breakdown of each TV's performance using the correct terminology - lumins, gamma, nits, benchmark data etc so you know exactly what your getting and how much of an improvement and IN WHAT AREAS the improvements are over the TV of it's rival. Here, take a look: http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/oled65e6v-201608104333.htm

Now why is it so hard to provide something like that for speaker cables? Just give me a page like that for two speaker cables - one basic and one that's the top of the range £150 per meter cable and let's see the differences.

 

[Oldphrt]

So I've just upgraded my speakers to the Kef Q900's from the lower end Mordaunt Short Aviano 6's. I'm using Van Damme's Tour grade Bi-wire speaker cable to my Yamaha RXA2050 AV Reciever. This cable has a cross secton area of 2.5mm and I was looking to get a thicker cable, preferably at 6mm thickness. I was looking at the QED Ruby Anniversary Edition speaker cable which was listed on a website as having a 6mm thickness, but for two 10m lengths (would be cut to make four 5m lengths for bi-amping) it would cost £60

However looking on Amazon I found I can get two 10m lengths of 10AWG cable for £20. The quality looks cheaper than the QED cable and it doesn't have any marketing spiel attached to it either, but does it really matter? Surely at the end of the day, cable is cable and the only real thing that improves the sound is thickness right? Or have I got this completely wrong? Here's the link to the cable anyway

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01J6G2N2G/ref=ox_sc_mini_detail?ie=...

It is only the thickness that matters, as long as you are talking copper rather than wet string. :O)

 

[andyjm]

No, It's not that I can't be arsed to engage any further (unless you was referring to yourself) it's that no-one can actually provide evidence to backup their claims. Ever hear of HDTV Test? They use proper measurement equipment and show us the statistics and breakdown of each TV's performance using the correct terminology - lumins, gamma, nits, benchmark data etc so you know exactly what your getting and how much of an improvement and IN WHAT AREAS the improvements are over the TV of it's rival. Here, take a look: http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/oled65e6v-201608104333.htm

Now why is it so hard to provide something like that for speaker cables? Just give me a page like that for two speaker cables - one basic and one that's the top of the range £150 per meter cable and let's see the differences.

Its not hard. The cables don't even need testing.

Baseband audio is about as plain vanilla as it gets when considering cable performance. Simple A level physics circuit theory is all you need to accurately predict the performance of a cable.

For high frequencies (MHz) all sorts of transmission line effects come into play, but for short lengths of cable at audio frequencies a 'lumped parameter model' is sufficient. The cable is modelled as a series resitance, series inductance and shunt capacitance. Any decent cable supplier should have this data available on their website.

Given these parameters, the output resitance of the amp and the resistance of the speaker, the effect of the cable can be modelled highly accurately.

The dirty little secret of speaker cables is that if you do model the cable, it turns out that only resistance really matters (assuming that the cable isn't some wierdo basket weave of conductors). As resistance is driven by cable length and wire diameter, all cables of the same general construction, size and length will perform the same.

The reason you don't see testing of the type you describe in magazines is that the conclusion will be 'all decent cables of similar size and length will perform the same'. This doesn't sell much advertising.

I you google around, you can find articles written by frustrated engineers trying to explain to the cable believers how this stuff actually works. They have the theory, maths and all the explanations you need. Google is your friend when it comes to this.

 

[Matte]

I'm all for objective, scientific testing of products but I don't want to be the guy with pencils in the pocket of his lab-coat (or the Guinea pig) thanks.

Let's just have the measurements and test results from manufacturers and from hi-fi magazines please.

Never going to happen? Of course not. Foo/boutique cable marketeers don't have anything 'unique' (or superior) they can actually demonstrate and hi-fi magazines don't have the test equipment (or qualified staff) to challenge manufacturer's claims. We just get fed subjective BS based on 1. some dude's mood that day. 2. Cut and paste of Foo company's pseudo-technical marketing splurge.

Our educational system is at fault too. If someone like Barry Fox was let loose in a proper lab with these cables, 95 percent of readers would not understand wtf he was writing about afterwards (unlike 40 years ago when our dad's would have got it fine, or 50 years ago when large chunks of the readership were building all - or part - of their own systems themselves from kits, plans and circuit diagrams!)

So I am sticking with affordable, decent gauge, multi-stranded, OFC copper cables and (again) affordable digital cables (ethernet and HDMI and optical) from Belkin and bought from proper retail outlets so I know it's all genuine and made to the appropriate standards.

Although I whole heartedly agree with most of what you say, I think your being a little harsh on the 'kids' of today.

Time has moved on, even in the days of practical home build hi-fi ers, they were viewed as odd, and their fathers probably thought they could put their time to something more constructive. It's true that the Hi-Fi world has been dumbed down, but the mags would have you believe it's customer driven.

Unfortunately 'some' appeal to the lowest common denominator, rather than try a little education. And most can only quote the marketing blurb from the manufactures and don't have the knowledge to challenge it.

Still our youngsters are clever in other areas, may be not so many practical but the manufacturing industry has been lost but we still need good engineers ( and that's not garage mechanics, although we need then too!) but it's not seen as a 'sexy' career and most people don't even know what an engineer is since the 'gas board' started elevating their technicians!

I'm still amazes at the broad spectrum of knowledge the young generation have to learn and at some depth.

But, if I have any observation to make, we do seem to be in a situation of passivity.

Where the young and some older do not care to use their vote, or not think it good to challenge the ruling authority or status quo ( shame about Rick ). where selfishness and I'm alright jack seems to be the order or they day. Fed by a heavily biased media promoting gloom and doom.

People respect people's views, which is great, but that respect seems to stop them feeling as if they should challenge them. Anyway I'm way off topic, although challenging the marketing nonsense from manufacturers so may be linked to this ?

- how the hell did Trump get elected! - really off topic now!

 

[drummerman]

Anyone that doesn't hear the difference between a QED Revelation and NACA5 pair of wires is cloth eared and probably in the wrong hobby.

I'd go further and say you don't even have to listen ...

... with the volume up, blindfolded and with noise cancelling ear muffs you'd still be able to tell the difference!

You can FEEL the difference in bass reproduction, it really is that simple and obvious. One 'excites' the room furniture, the other doesn't.

Lower the volume and it becomes a tad more difficult.

Of course, all cables are the same