Speaker cable advice please

[MeanandGreen]

About 15 years ago I picked up an Ariston AX-910 amplifier from Richer Sounds for about £40. At the time the lengths of QED Silver Anniversary speaker cable I had cost more than that amp. I was staggered at how brillant that little £40 amp sounded and it seemed totally stupid that the cable was worth more than the amplifier, the amp was a major bargain and the result was pretty amazing to me at the time.

The Ariston was a stop gap, before buying a pricier NAD as my old Pioneer was failing. I would never go down the route of cables which equal or exceed the cost of the actual hardware. Even though the results can be impressive, there is no substitute for better electronics. I'd definitely put the £300 towards, better electronics. Even though the cables (might) extract more from your system It won't be worth £300.

 

[ID.]

For a dem I once cabled a sub £1000 budget system with nearly £6000 of the (then) top of line Nordost Cables.

The difference was amazing, revelatory, night and day, whatever cliche you want to trot out. I was stunned.

As good as a £7000 system without boutique cables?

Easily, the con was very, very convincing........*nea*

I like Nordost cables

I recently swapped back my silver plated cheaper speaker cables for my significantly more expensive and chunky copper cable. I won't bother stating the differences I'd swear I heard despite having become sceptical about the differences. Mere scepticism certainly isn't enough to save one from expectation bias. I'm pretty sure that if I swapped back to the cheaper cable again I'd actually realize there was little to no difference. But at least my more expensive cables still didn't cost more than about 10% of the price of my receiver.

 

[davedotco]

For a dem I once cabled a sub £1000 budget system with nearly £6000 of the (then) top of line Nordost Cables.

The difference was amazing, revelatory, night and day, whatever cliche you want to trot out. I was stunned.

As good as a £7000 system without boutique cables?

Easily, the con was very, very convincing........*nea*

I like Nordost cables

I recently swapped back my silver plated cheaper speaker cables for my significantly more expensive and chunky copper cable. I won't bother stating the differences I'd swear I heard despite having become sceptical about the differences. Mere scepticism certainly isn't enough to save one from expectation bias. I'm pretty sure that if I swapped back to the cheaper cable again I'd actually realize there was little to no difference. But at least my more expensive cables still didn't cost more than about 10% of the price of my receiver.

I am faintly surprised that no-one has really 'called me' on my post above.

The test was real and took place in my shop, the effects were heard by everyone present and were deemed 'not subtle'.

My personal view was that the flat, ribbon style, construction of the cables introduced a mild 'uptilt' in the response, maybe half a dB down in the bass and the same amount of uplift at higher frequencies,

This made the system sound a touch brighter and maybe a touch louder (the 'presence' region was in the range being boosted) but at the time I was a dealer totally invested in the whole subjective hi-fi world and I simply took the dem at face value. It was pretty convincing though.

For those who are familiar with Mana equipment supports, I would say the effects were very similar.

 

[Covenanter]

For a dem I once cabled a sub £1000 budget system with nearly £6000 of the (then) top of line Nordost Cables.

The difference was amazing, revelatory, night and day, whatever cliche you want to trot out. I was stunned.

As good as a £7000 system without boutique cables?

Easily, the con was very, very convincing........*nea*

I like Nordost cables

I recently swapped back my silver plated cheaper speaker cables for my significantly more expensive and chunky copper cable. I won't bother stating the differences I'd swear I heard despite having become sceptical about the differences. Mere scepticism certainly isn't enough to save one from expectation bias. I'm pretty sure that if I swapped back to the cheaper cable again I'd actually realize there was little to no difference. But at least my more expensive cables still didn't cost more than about 10% of the price of my receiver.

I am faintly surprised that no-one has really 'called me' on my post above.

The test was real and took place in my shop, the effects were heard by everyone present and were deemed 'not subtle'.

My personal view was that the flat, ribbon style, construction of the cables introduced a mild 'uptilt' in the response, maybe half a dB down in the bass and the same amount of uplift at higher frequencies,

This made the system sound a touch brighter and maybe a touch louder (the 'presence' region was in the range being boosted) but at the time I was a dealer totally invested in the whole subjective hi-fi world and I simply took the dem at face value. It was pretty convincing though.

For those who are familiar with Mana equipment supports, I would say the effects were very similar.

Are you suggesting that this cable "amplified" higher frequencies?

Chris

 

[davedotco]

For a dem I once cabled a sub £1000 budget system with nearly £6000 of the (then) top of line Nordost Cables.

The difference was amazing, revelatory, night and day, whatever cliche you want to trot out. I was stunned.

As good as a £7000 system without boutique cables?

Easily, the con was very, very convincing........*nea*

I like Nordost cables

I recently swapped back my silver plated cheaper speaker cables for my significantly more expensive and chunky copper cable. I won't bother stating the differences I'd swear I heard despite having become sceptical about the differences. Mere scepticism certainly isn't enough to save one from expectation bias. I'm pretty sure that if I swapped back to the cheaper cable again I'd actually realize there was little to no difference. But at least my more expensive cables still didn't cost more than about 10% of the price of my receiver.

I am faintly surprised that no-one has really 'called me' on my post above.

The test was real and took place in my shop, the effects were heard by everyone present and were deemed 'not subtle'.

My personal view was that the flat, ribbon style, construction of the cables introduced a mild 'uptilt' in the response, maybe half a dB down in the bass and the same amount of uplift at higher frequencies,

This made the system sound a touch brighter and maybe a touch louder (the 'presence' region was in the range being boosted) but at the time I was a dealer totally invested in the whole subjective hi-fi world and I simply took the dem at face value. It was pretty convincing though.

For those who are familiar with Mana equipment supports, I would say the effects were very similar.

Are you suggesting that this cable "amplified" higher frequencies?

Chris

To be honest Chris, I really don't know what I am suggesting, maybe 'attenuates less'.......*unknw*

I am really just revisting a past experience with the benefits of hindsight and perhaps some expanded knowledge. The test happened as described, random visitors to the shop heard the 'effect' even though they had no idea what they were listening to.

It was so clear, and the comments so consistent that something was going on, I am deeply sceptical of such things as you know and we were comparing extremes, a hundred quids worth of 'cooking' cables against £6ks worth of Nordost exotica, but.....*unknw*

If I was able to carry out such a test now, I would try adjusting the frequency respone to match cables, see what difference that makes.

 

[Covenanter]

For a dem I once cabled a sub £1000 budget system with nearly £6000 of the (then) top of line Nordost Cables.

The difference was amazing, revelatory, night and day, whatever cliche you want to trot out. I was stunned.

As good as a £7000 system without boutique cables?

Easily, the con was very, very convincing........*nea*

I like Nordost cables

I recently swapped back my silver plated cheaper speaker cables for my significantly more expensive and chunky copper cable. I won't bother stating the differences I'd swear I heard despite having become sceptical about the differences. Mere scepticism certainly isn't enough to save one from expectation bias. I'm pretty sure that if I swapped back to the cheaper cable again I'd actually realize there was little to no difference. But at least my more expensive cables still didn't cost more than about 10% of the price of my receiver.

I am faintly surprised that no-one has really 'called me' on my post above.

The test was real and took place in my shop, the effects were heard by everyone present and were deemed 'not subtle'.

My personal view was that the flat, ribbon style, construction of the cables introduced a mild 'uptilt' in the response, maybe half a dB down in the bass and the same amount of uplift at higher frequencies,

This made the system sound a touch brighter and maybe a touch louder (the 'presence' region was in the range being boosted) but at the time I was a dealer totally invested in the whole subjective hi-fi world and I simply took the dem at face value. It was pretty convincing though.

For those who are familiar with Mana equipment supports, I would say the effects were very similar.

Are you suggesting that this cable "amplified" higher frequencies?

Chris

To be honest Chris, I really don't know what I am suggesting, maybe 'attenuates less'.......*unknw*

I am really just revisting a past experience with the benefits of hindsight and perhaps some expanded knowledge. The test happened as described, random visitors to the shop heard the 'effect' even though they had no idea what they were listening to.

It was so clear, and the comments so consistent that something was going on, I am deeply sceptical of such things as you know and we were comparing extremes, a hundred quids worth of 'cooking' cables against £6ks worth of Nordost exotica, but.....*unknw*

If I was able to carry out such a test now, I would try adjusting the frequency respone to match cables, see what difference that makes.

Ok. I thought you had lost your marbles there for a minute.

Well if you worked at it I guess you could make a cable that had different impedances at different frequencies, although at audio frequencies you would have to be very clever. I can't see you could do it with inductance but maybe some serial capacitive effect would work.

I suppose my general reluctance to go too far with this is that I would expect an ordinary piece of copper cable to have an almostly perfectly flat frequency response at audio frequencies, i.e. it would pass all frequencies indentically. I've not seen any credible evidence otherwise. So for a cable to have a different effect it would have to be doing something other than having a flat frequency response, i.e. it would have to be distorting the signal. I guess people might like cable that did that!

Chris

 

[davedotco]

Ok. I thought you had lost your marbles there for a minute.

Well if you worked at it I guess you could make a cable that had different impedances at different frequencies, although at audio frequencies you would have to be very clever. I can't see you could do it with inductance but maybe some serial capacitive effect would work.

I suppose my general reluctance to go too far with this is that I would expect an ordinary piece of copper cable to have an almostly perfectly flat frequency response at audio frequencies, i.e. it would pass all frequencies indentically. I've not seen any credible evidence otherwise. So for a cable to have a different effect it would have to be doing something other than having a flat frequency response, i.e. it would have to be distorting the signal. I guess people might like cable that did that!

Chris

I know, the science is pretty straightforward on this though my understanding is that the ribbon style construction is capacitive in nature, though how it can have such a precise effect at audio frequencies is beyond me.

Being more aware of the science and the psycho acoustic effects of listening tests simply makes me revisit some of the subjective phenomena that were part of my everyday experiences as a dealer. I was always pretty sceptical in many respects but working with the equipment everyday and hearing things in all kinds of circumstances does kind of make you wonder.

For example, in my early inexpert days I set up and was demoing a standard Linn/Naim Isobarik system. The sound was awful, (insert appropriate joke here!) all 'fractured', a bit spitty, just horrible. I assumed it was a dirty stylus but cleaning made no difference, I called in one of the more experienced sales guys and he listened for about 10 seconds.

He then went over and, with my help removed the speakers from the stands and set small (cartridge fixing) nuts on the 4 corners of the stands (pre-top spikes) and carefully repositioned the speakers ensuring they were well seated.

Problem solved, the system sounded spot on, all the issues I was having dissappeared. Logically the speakers were so big and heavy it is hard to see why something so small would make such a difference. But it did.

 

[Vladimir]

The general consensus in sciences and cable freaks is that cable geometry and dielectrics is what creates the slight changes in sound in cables. This is no voodoo in science based industries like telecommunications. IME only a seriously flawed geometry with horrendeous RLC will produce "night'n'day" differences.

I once tried a very thick solid core electric cord (primarily used for utillity poles) as my speaker wire and the results due to geometry (unpleated wire) and the material itself were very high inductance. The amplifier got quite warm even while not playing loud and the sound was bass heavy and muffled in the top frequencies. If I went on longer than the 1 hour of testing, the amp would have surely blown a driver transistor or a diode, it was oscilating that badly. Only a Quad, Krell or Bryston would survive that cable.

That cord was so thick and because it was solid core I really had a tough job twisting it to reduce inductance. Then I tested again and the results were much better. Sound was normal, although still more bass heavy and the amp didn't get very warm. I stopped using the cable, this was just an experiment about cable geometry.

 

[ID.]

Interesting comments on the Nordost cable. It certainly seems to match the reputation they have for a fast, detailed, slightly bright sound. The effect when I used some Nordost interconnects was pretty similar, plus bringing out some significant bass punch. How much was due to the cables and how much due to pyschological factors I couldn't even begin to guess. Never thought to switch back and forth between the old free cables that came with my CD player, but it convinced me that speaker cables and interconnects made a significant difference.

 

[davedotco]

Interesting comments on the Nordost cable. It certainly seems to match the reputation they have for a fast, detailed, slightly bright sound. The effect when I used some Nordost interconnects was pretty similar, plus bringing out some significant bass punch. How much was due to the cables and how much due to pyschological factors I couldn't even begin to guess. Never thought to switch back and forth between the old free cables that came with my CD player, but it convinced me that speaker cables and interconnects made a significant difference.

What would be really interesting is to compare the cables with any frequency anomalies eq-ed out. Ie, check to see if the extra 'detail' is, as I suspect, caused by a slight boost in the presence region. Similarly bass punch may be the result of limited LF extension, just a thought.

 

[Vladimir]

Interesting comments on the Nordost cable. It certainly seems to match the reputation they have for a fast, detailed, slightly bright sound. The effect when I used some Nordost interconnects was pretty similar, plus bringing out some significant bass punch. How much was due to the cables and how much due to pyschological factors I couldn't even begin to guess. Never thought to switch back and forth between the old free cables that came with my CD player, but it convinced me that speaker cables and interconnects made a significant difference.

What would be really interesting is to compare the cables with any frequency anomalies eq-ed out. Ie, check to see if the extra 'detail' is, as I suspect, caused by a slight boost in the presence region. Similarly bass punch may be the result of limited LF extension, just a thought.

That or placebo steming from expectation buildup by suggestive groupthink. Or magic.

 

[ID.]

Interesting comments on the Nordost cable. It certainly seems to match the reputation they have for a fast, detailed, slightly bright sound. The effect when I used some Nordost interconnects was pretty similar, plus bringing out some significant bass punch. How much was due to the cables and how much due to pyschological factors I couldn't even begin to guess. Never thought to switch back and forth between the old free cables that came with my CD player, but it convinced me that speaker cables and interconnects made a significant difference.

What would be really interesting is to compare the cables with any frequency anomalies eq-ed out. Ie, check to see if the extra 'detail' is, as I suspect, caused by a slight boost in the presence region. Similarly bass punch may be the result of limited LF extension, just a thought.

That or placebo steming from expectation buildup by suggestive groupthink. Or magic.

While I am now a cable sceptic, the differences I heard on my Nordost interconnects were without me knowing anything about Nordost's reputation or sound. Just interesting that I heard them. No attempts to verify of check were made, so I'm not prepared to rule out psychological factors.

 

[Vladimir]

Interesting comments on the Nordost cable. It certainly seems to match the reputation they have for a fast, detailed, slightly bright sound. The effect when I used some Nordost interconnects was pretty similar, plus bringing out some significant bass punch. How much was due to the cables and how much due to pyschological factors I couldn't even begin to guess. Never thought to switch back and forth between the old free cables that came with my CD player, but it convinced me that speaker cables and interconnects made a significant difference.

What would be really interesting is to compare the cables with any frequency anomalies eq-ed out. Ie, check to see if the extra 'detail' is, as I suspect, caused by a slight boost in the presence region. Similarly bass punch may be the result of limited LF extension, just a thought.

That or placebo steming from expectation buildup by suggestive groupthink. Or magic.

While I am now a cable sceptic, the differences I heard on my Nordost interconnects were without me knowing anything about Nordost's reputation or sound. Just interesting that I heard them. No attempts to verify of check were made, so I'm not prepared to rule out psychological factors.

Could be real auditory experience no doubt. But as it is a practice in hi-fi, if something sounds drastically different, it is intentionally flawed. For example vinyl and tube vs digital and SS. If you are after an experience, you will accept differences as good, regardless if objectively bad.

If there is a difference, there is an experience, it will be worth something to someone and they will deffend their experience, like you are just now. I do it, we all do it. You are simply passing the torch for more people to jump on board, maybe unaware of this.

 

[Native_bon]

So I got home from work and took out the bi-wire, joined both red, both black and links from an old piece of 79 strand.

Do my ears deceive me, well after reading this forum I'd be inclined to accept that possibility. So this deception somehow sounds to be bass deeper, tighter and fuller. Damn these ears

By removing those cables you have just cleaned the contact. Now put back the old cables & lets see if your still hearing the improvment you think you hear. Happened to me many atimes. Put back the old cables just to see if it really is an improvment & you guessed it, just the same old function of a cable

 

[BryO]

The wires are exactly the same, just not set up in bi-wire formation, 79 strands as the links. Maybe the sound is same as ever but enjoying it anyway.

 

[BryO]

Ooh iPhone and the site are not friends

 

[grdunn123]

The placebo effect is real and does offer benefits in medicine - it works the same with speaker cables too I'm sure, if you've spent a few hundred £££ on shiny new cables then you will likely hear just how good they are. If this works for you then it is money well spent.

 

[Vladimir]

The placebo effect is real and does offer benefits in medicine - it works the same with speaker cables too I'm sure, if you've spent a few hundred £££ on shiny new cables then you will likely hear just how good they are. If this works for you then it is money well spent.

That's why cables and other hi-fi accessories are called men's jewelry. If it makes you happy, disposable income well spent.

 

[BryO]

I would delete this but alas I can't

 

[BryO]

Would also delete this, but still the same wires! Never Changed them just the set up.

 

[jamescfyfe]

Thanks for all of the replies I have decided to stick with my current cables thanks again

 

[ellisdj]

Only way to know is to try for yourself - I have lived with Odyssey and Epic and heard the Audioquest at the WHF Towers.

obviously both were on different systems - the Audioquest was on the reference system @ WHF not the reference speakers though. Its very good cable, but I have heard much better but costs a lot more. But this might not be an area that needs improving in your system by the looks of it

I have done test on speaker cables recently that were very interesting.

Dont listen to the cable nay sayers - listen for yourself there are companies that will do you a home demo. Only you can judge

Surely, even you would agree that spending as much on speaker cables as on the amplifier makes little sense? Instead of buying a budget amplifier and connect with high end cables, is it not better to get a better amplifier and spend less on cables?

Hi BB -I know this is a late reply, sorry I have got a lot on

Normally I would 100% agree with you - and the crazy exotic cables always seemed that.

Well recently my views have all been changed yet again - a fellow forum member has cables costing more than his system - or at least equal, they are the most expensive set of cables a humble man of means could ever own.

I had never heard of the company before but after hearing them quite a lot now - I find myself lusting after them. I have managed to get only 1 cable from this company but as and when I can afford them / find them I will be getting more.

To point out the system is not a budget system, its a very good system - the components are dealer advised selected to work well together. I also feel I have a system and room of quality worthy of investing in such products - I wouldnt advise anyone considerr buying these particular cable products with budget systems of course

But to be concise on your point - I didnt think the cables was where he should spend his money and thought I had said that in the post - but I thought it didnt hurt to advise he get a home demo to try for himself

I appreciate the naysayers will say its all in my head - I am ok with that - thats generally where I listen anyway

 

[geordie777]

So I got home from work and took out the bi-wire, joined both red, both black and links from an old piece of 79 strand.

Do my ears deceive me, well after reading this forum I'd be inclined to accept that possibility. So this deception somehow sounds to be bass deeper, tighter and fuller. Damn these ears

Yep did this with my system and got the same results found it a vast improvement to the sound.

 

[MUSICRAFT]

Thanks for all of the replies I have decided to stick with my current cables thanks again

Hi jamescfyfe

Good

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[BryO]

So I got home from work and took out the bi-wire, joined both red, both black and links from an old piece of 79 strand.

Do my ears deceive me, well after reading this forum I'd be inclined to accept that possibility. So this deception somehow sounds to be bass deeper, tighter and fuller. Damn these ears

Yep did this with my system and got the same results found it a vast improvement to the sound.

Good to hear that has happened for you as well. After reading about these Bi-wire issues/ideas I thought it was worth a punt setting the wires up in regular format and added the links, works a treat!