Hi I had the same problem when I moved to Bluray, here's what I found, my first cable was a Monster 750 v1.3 4.96 Gpbs £60 and I had a problem getting my Samsung 1500 to Handshake with my year old Pana LCD, thought it was cable so I bought a £15 panasonic HDMI v1.3 deep colour 10.2 Gpbs from Amazon same problem and no number of firmware updates would fix it, so I took the player back and got a Pana BD 35 no problems in connecting to my tv (Great player btw) I subsequently tried the monster cable no problem and finally my Virgin media freebie cable all worked but there was a difference in picture quality between the Virgin cable and the other two. I would not spend any more than £20 on an HDMI cable as long as it is rated v1.3 and 10.2 Gpbs they'll all perform just as well, these cables are digital not analogue, construction and insulation don't really make a difference imo.
I'm noticing a trend - across the many, many threads on this topic - that people who don't rate pricier (not expensive, just a little dearer) HDMI cables almost always cite Monster ones - none of which, for HDMI, have ever made it into our Awards or Best Buys.
I wonder if a good old available-for-under £20, five-star, Award-winning QED HDMI-P would get the same response if tried. Just a thought....
I wonder if a good old available-for-under £20, five-star, Award-winning QED HDMI-P would get the same response if tried. Just a thought....
Ginder:
Funny thing is you were the 1st to reply to the post and ur the one that is saying that the topic shouldnt be discussed..all you really needed to say was:
"in my opinion, spend what you're happy with and if it's a long length spend a bit more for peace of mind particularly if you're chasing cables in a wall. If not, pretty much any hdmi cable will do and octava at £10 from tmfsolutions gets my vote"
and that would have easily answered the OPs thread..
I didn't say that it shouldn't be discussed at all, only that it has already been discussed, in fact it has been discussed to death. Oh and I don't need to be told what I should say by someone who isn't a moderator.
Funny thing is you were the 1st to reply to the post and ur the one that is saying that the topic shouldnt be discussed..all you really needed to say was:
"in my opinion, spend what you're happy with and if it's a long length spend a bit more for peace of mind particularly if you're chasing cables in a wall. If not, pretty much any hdmi cable will do and octava at £10 from tmfsolutions gets my vote"
and that would have easily answered the OPs thread..
I didn't say that it shouldn't be discussed at all, only that it has already been discussed, in fact it has been discussed to death. Oh and I don't need to be told what I should say by someone who isn't a moderator.
I've just bought 2 QED performance Hdmi P cables off Amazon(19.86!) for when my tv and BD Player arrive, bargain.
I would say that the fact that this subject has been viewed 665 times speaks for it`s self. People are interested in this topic. What is the point in buying high quality equipment if you are going to connect it with a cable that may or may not be doing the kit justice.
Ginder, appreciate your support on this. I just happen to think it merits discussion
Ginder, appreciate your support on this. I just happen to think it merits discussion
Either that or they enjoy handbags. I think what the others were referring to though is it gets discussed in length atleast once a week.
pioneer7
Well-known member
It would appear that some forum members here feel that because they contribute more than others they have the right to belittle those who want genuine advice, if some threads topics bug other readers and dont like it dont say anything, i have to say that reading some threads it reminds me of another forum where they are a law to them selves, and are like a bunch of women bitching all the time and jumping on other members who want advice and help. yes this topic has been covered many times BUT so what this is what this forum is for, to help, guide, and give advice thats the fun part is it not ??. Had it not been for the few that contribute to this forum with help and advice i dont think it would be as successful as it is today. Can you imagine going into a dealers spending a small fortune, then asking what is the best HDMI for around £20, only then to be jumped on " for christ sake sir they are all the bloody same" i think most would be gobsmacked with that, and go else where. that would not happen [i dont think] but on forums it seems ok to moan about others who ask about subjects that have been covered, anyway i would suggest that other members who are more knowledgable in A/v HiFi be more understanding and help those who ask, and give the wrong impression to the poor sod who has just jioned and wants to know something for the first time, this gives the wrong impression [does it not]
OK some useless information about HDMI one Pioneer Kuro KRP-500 and LX-71 great picture anyway 3 HDMI 3 tests over about 3 hours 5 of my buddys and wifes and girl freinds [ very cramped] watched the same part of a Blu-ray, does not matter which one, then had some refreshment, same again and so on, after 3 dems the results were unbeleivable i was shocked at the different results from all that took part, anyway do you know which cable came out on top?? the QED-HDMI-P the older version. BUT the funny thing was it was the same cable on all 3 tests we did not even change the cable, so make what you will out of that.
OK some useless information about HDMI one Pioneer Kuro KRP-500 and LX-71 great picture anyway 3 HDMI 3 tests over about 3 hours 5 of my buddys and wifes and girl freinds [ very cramped] watched the same part of a Blu-ray, does not matter which one, then had some refreshment, same again and so on, after 3 dems the results were unbeleivable i was shocked at the different results from all that took part, anyway do you know which cable came out on top?? the QED-HDMI-P the older version. BUT the funny thing was it was the same cable on all 3 tests we did not even change the cable, so make what you will out of that.
murg:What is the point in buying high quality equipment if you are going to connect it with a cable that may or may not be doing the kit justice.
Good point. Here's an equally good counter-point. Why pay more for a premium cable when a good budget cable may give indistinguishable results? I think people are just trying to find that out by asking here. I have an £18 QED and a £5 CYK and I can't tell the difference. I'm not saying that there is no difference, only that I can't see a difference.
The prof explained that WHF use double blind comparison tests, and if premium cable tested with that level of rigour are consistently rated higher than budget cables then I'm not going to argue, and I certainly don't blame people for buying premium cables to make sure they get the best performance. I find it counter-intuitive that a good premium cable would be worth the price difference over a good budget cable but I'd love to be proved wrong by experiencing the same test setup that WHF use. In the mean time we are just reporting personal experiences in the hope it might help others.
Good point. Here's an equally good counter-point. Why pay more for a premium cable when a good budget cable may give indistinguishable results? I think people are just trying to find that out by asking here. I have an £18 QED and a £5 CYK and I can't tell the difference. I'm not saying that there is no difference, only that I can't see a difference.
The prof explained that WHF use double blind comparison tests, and if premium cable tested with that level of rigour are consistently rated higher than budget cables then I'm not going to argue, and I certainly don't blame people for buying premium cables to make sure they get the best performance. I find it counter-intuitive that a good premium cable would be worth the price difference over a good budget cable but I'd love to be proved wrong by experiencing the same test setup that WHF use. In the mean time we are just reporting personal experiences in the hope it might help others.
I've only just joined the forum as a new av user,i joined for the exact reason to find out about which cables to hook up the new system ive just purchased! sadly all you seam to find people who know to much not wanting to help people that dont have any idea i,e me.
If the topic in question doesn't thrill you or you think it bores you over and over again then dont bother replying on it. then you can leave it up to the guys that do want to help and advise! because at the end of the day we want the best for our kit!
I find the advise on this site very useful but seem to have to trawl through pages of people arguing the point! to those that do help thank you because of you guys i think i have made the right choice!
If the topic in question doesn't thrill you or you think it bores you over and over again then dont bother replying on it. then you can leave it up to the guys that do want to help and advise! because at the end of the day we want the best for our kit!
I find the advise on this site very useful but seem to have to trawl through pages of people arguing the point! to those that do help thank you because of you guys i think i have made the right choice!
Alec
Well-known member
petesneds:
I've only just joined the forum as a new av user,i joined for the exact reason to find out about which cables to hook up the new system ive just purchased! sadly all you seam to find people who know to much not wanting to help people that dont have any idea i,e me.
If the topic in question doesn't thrill you or you think it bores you over and over again then dont bother replying on it. then you can leave it up to the guys that do want to help and advise! because at the end of the day we want the best for our kit!
I find the advise on this site very useful but seem to have to trawl through pages of people arguing the point! to those that do help thank you because of you guys i think i have made the right choice!
Yes, but the forum has a search function, and reviews. And the threads you can find by using said search function will tell you its a very controversial issue. That said, if you're that concerned, why would you take the word of anyone here for it? Buy some with a return agreement and do a comparison, if it matters that much. My purchase as oulined a couple pages back was beased partly on the idea that if something creates so much controversy, it wouldnt make a "wow" difference to my eyes. Yet, admitedly irrationally, many of us sometimes want the reassurance of a big name. Would i have replaced my 20£ish cable if i hadnt seen the QED that cheap tho? I dont think i would have tbh.
I shall stand by this rational till i see a cable that impresses me sufficiently. Sometimes you just need the courage of your own convictions.
Clare and Daveh75 - yup. like i said. if ever the phrase "No Brainer" were appropriate...
I've only just joined the forum as a new av user,i joined for the exact reason to find out about which cables to hook up the new system ive just purchased! sadly all you seam to find people who know to much not wanting to help people that dont have any idea i,e me.
If the topic in question doesn't thrill you or you think it bores you over and over again then dont bother replying on it. then you can leave it up to the guys that do want to help and advise! because at the end of the day we want the best for our kit!
I find the advise on this site very useful but seem to have to trawl through pages of people arguing the point! to those that do help thank you because of you guys i think i have made the right choice!
Yes, but the forum has a search function, and reviews. And the threads you can find by using said search function will tell you its a very controversial issue. That said, if you're that concerned, why would you take the word of anyone here for it? Buy some with a return agreement and do a comparison, if it matters that much. My purchase as oulined a couple pages back was beased partly on the idea that if something creates so much controversy, it wouldnt make a "wow" difference to my eyes. Yet, admitedly irrationally, many of us sometimes want the reassurance of a big name. Would i have replaced my 20£ish cable if i hadnt seen the QED that cheap tho? I dont think i would have tbh.
I shall stand by this rational till i see a cable that impresses me sufficiently. Sometimes you just need the courage of your own convictions.
Clare and Daveh75 - yup. like i said. if ever the phrase "No Brainer" were appropriate...
Messiah
Well-known member
murg:I`M Asking because this is a forum where we discuss av issues (in an adult manner) your flippant remarks dont help at all. So far the decision has been split. If you read the whs&v reviews they certainly think that cables make a huge difference, others on this forum do not. It was an honest question which didnt deserve your response.I am merely trying to get other peoples opinions before I make a purchase that might not be neccessary. After all, audio cables make a huge difference to the way sound is conveyed. Why not av cables?
HDMI cables (and Optical etc) cause such controversy because they carry the signal digitally and an opinion is that they either carry the 0's and 1's successfully or they do not. How can a dearer cable carry the 0's and 1's any better?
Personally I could not see a difference between my freebie Virgin cable and my QED HDMI-P cable (plus the use of the QED means I could not connect up my Optical cable as the HDMI blocked the space it connected too. Why are they so close together Virgin!??) However, that does not mean that others would not notice a difference and I'm sure the WHF team who do this all the time will certainly be used to spotting differences. I think for most people to spot a difference you would have to be able to compare the cables side by side.
As has been said. I think that the best course of action is to always try it for yourself. (Although I agree that the QED HDMI for under £20 really seems like a great choice. Good price for build quality if nothing else and perhaps peace of mind)
HDMI cables (and Optical etc) cause such controversy because they carry the signal digitally and an opinion is that they either carry the 0's and 1's successfully or they do not. How can a dearer cable carry the 0's and 1's any better?
Personally I could not see a difference between my freebie Virgin cable and my QED HDMI-P cable (plus the use of the QED means I could not connect up my Optical cable as the HDMI blocked the space it connected too. Why are they so close together Virgin!??) However, that does not mean that others would not notice a difference and I'm sure the WHF team who do this all the time will certainly be used to spotting differences. I think for most people to spot a difference you would have to be able to compare the cables side by side.
As has been said. I think that the best course of action is to always try it for yourself. (Although I agree that the QED HDMI for under £20 really seems like a great choice. Good price for build quality if nothing else and perhaps peace of mind)
Alec
Well-known member
I mean was the arguing about whether HDMI cables are worth it or not, not enough? Or do we now need to argue about whether we should argue about whether HDMI cables are worth it or not.
Alec
Well-known member
Octopo:I mean was the arguing about whether HDMI cables are worth it or not, not enough? Or do we now need to argue about whether we should argue about whether HDMI cables are worth it or not.
oh ok.
answer is no, btw.
oh ok.
answer is no, btw.
professorhat
Well-known member
Octopo:I mean was the arguing about whether HDMI cables are worth it or not, not enough? Or do we now need to argue about whether we should argue about whether HDMI cables are worth it or not.
True, and I am truly sorry I was a party to this new argument. I really did think I was actually being helpful at the time!
And to all the new members who think us regulars are trying to silence your questions which have been repeated - this was not at all my aim. It was (it seems) just confusion on my part. The title insinuated that the OP had read lots of HDMI cable arguments on this very forum and wanted to stoke them up again rather than gain any useful advice. It would seem from his later posts that this is not the case and this is the reason I took back my post suggesting this was so.
Please, let us just go back to the original argument and not begin any new ones - that's the last thing any of us want or need!
True, and I am truly sorry I was a party to this new argument. I really did think I was actually being helpful at the time!
And to all the new members who think us regulars are trying to silence your questions which have been repeated - this was not at all my aim. It was (it seems) just confusion on my part. The title insinuated that the OP had read lots of HDMI cable arguments on this very forum and wanted to stoke them up again rather than gain any useful advice. It would seem from his later posts that this is not the case and this is the reason I took back my post suggesting this was so.
Please, let us just go back to the original argument and not begin any new ones - that's the last thing any of us want or need!
Clare Newsome:
I'm noticing a trend - across the many, many threads on this topic - that people who don't rate pricier (not expensive, just a little dearer) HDMI cables almost always cite Monster ones - none of which, for HDMI, have ever made it into our Awards or Best Buys.
I wonder if a good old available-for-under £20, five-star, Award-winning QED HDMI-P would get the same response if tried. Just a thought....
Have What HiFi ever tested the Monster 1000EX or better, the M1000HD (14.9Gbps)? Surely a cable that has been certified to pass data at nearly 15Gbps must be fairly well constructed and futureproof. I use both and get far better results than the QED HDMI in my opinion, just don't buy them from Comet! Genuine new examples of both these can be had for under £50 on eBay.
Obviously you've been able to test more cables than me, but I have a high regard for high-end Monster cables, e.g. their M-Series which can be bought for quite reasonable prices online.
I'm noticing a trend - across the many, many threads on this topic - that people who don't rate pricier (not expensive, just a little dearer) HDMI cables almost always cite Monster ones - none of which, for HDMI, have ever made it into our Awards or Best Buys.
I wonder if a good old available-for-under £20, five-star, Award-winning QED HDMI-P would get the same response if tried. Just a thought....
Have What HiFi ever tested the Monster 1000EX or better, the M1000HD (14.9Gbps)? Surely a cable that has been certified to pass data at nearly 15Gbps must be fairly well constructed and futureproof. I use both and get far better results than the QED HDMI in my opinion, just don't buy them from Comet! Genuine new examples of both these can be had for under £50 on eBay.
Obviously you've been able to test more cables than me, but I have a high regard for high-end Monster cables, e.g. their M-Series which can be bought for quite reasonable prices online.
smithdom:
The prof explained that WHF use double blind comparison tests, and if premium cable tested with that level of rigour are consistently rated higher than budget cables then I'm not going to argue, and I certainly don't blame people for buying premium cables to make sure they get the best performance. I find it counter-intuitive that a good premium cable would be worth the price difference over a good budget cable but I'd love to be proved wrong by experiencing the same test setup that WHF use. In the mean time we are just reporting personal experiences in the hope it might help others.
Premium cables DON'T always come out on top - which is why over the years we've given low star ratings to a range of pricey cables: they simply weren't good value for money compared to cheaper competition.
Re the premium Monsters- we haven't tested any Monster HDMI for a while (don't think they liked our verdicts!) but i'll put through another request....
The prof explained that WHF use double blind comparison tests, and if premium cable tested with that level of rigour are consistently rated higher than budget cables then I'm not going to argue, and I certainly don't blame people for buying premium cables to make sure they get the best performance. I find it counter-intuitive that a good premium cable would be worth the price difference over a good budget cable but I'd love to be proved wrong by experiencing the same test setup that WHF use. In the mean time we are just reporting personal experiences in the hope it might help others.
Premium cables DON'T always come out on top - which is why over the years we've given low star ratings to a range of pricey cables: they simply weren't good value for money compared to cheaper competition.
Re the premium Monsters- we haven't tested any Monster HDMI for a while (don't think they liked our verdicts!) but i'll put through another request....
Re the premium Monsters- we haven't tested any Monster HDMI for a while (don't think they liked our verdicts!) but i'll put through another request....
No, no, I take it back! If you test them and they get 5 stars they won't be cheap anymore!
No, no, I take it back! If you test them and they get 5 stars they won't be cheap anymore!
I can't say I fully understand the exact physics/electronics theory behind HDMI and digital signals but here are some things to throw in the debate:
HDMI carries digital electrical signals. The digitisation takes the form of voltages which are blocked together in groups by time. As with all wires carrying an electrical signal they are potentially prone to inteference and having the signal inaccurately read at the other end. The speed of the the data transmission can compromise the timing of these blocks.
It is therefore possible that HDMI cables can do a poor job and fail to transport enough an intelligible signal. However a digital signal basically consists of just two states ON or OFF (or 1 or 0 etc) so inteference needs to be above a certain level for it to start to corrupt. Even then digital components and signals have error correction built into them to even further improve the chances of the correct signal getting through.
The faster and faster transmission rates do push the limit of the physical characteristics of a cable and the digital circuitry to decode and read accurately.
In short, I believe people who buy more expensive cables are perhaps buying ones with greater limits if the technology starts to make more demands. Perhaps more expensive ones also require the error correction circuitry to work less hard as plugs and screening may be superior at minimising inteference. However, if the same data eventually gates through via a cheaper cable then my guess is the two cables will likely give the same end result thereby causing people to automatically deduce that they are as good as eachother.
I think more expensive cables tend to 'buy' more peace of mind that the cabling will not be a compromise and of couse there's nothing wrong with that if you have the money.
HDMI carries digital electrical signals. The digitisation takes the form of voltages which are blocked together in groups by time. As with all wires carrying an electrical signal they are potentially prone to inteference and having the signal inaccurately read at the other end. The speed of the the data transmission can compromise the timing of these blocks.
It is therefore possible that HDMI cables can do a poor job and fail to transport enough an intelligible signal. However a digital signal basically consists of just two states ON or OFF (or 1 or 0 etc) so inteference needs to be above a certain level for it to start to corrupt. Even then digital components and signals have error correction built into them to even further improve the chances of the correct signal getting through.
The faster and faster transmission rates do push the limit of the physical characteristics of a cable and the digital circuitry to decode and read accurately.
In short, I believe people who buy more expensive cables are perhaps buying ones with greater limits if the technology starts to make more demands. Perhaps more expensive ones also require the error correction circuitry to work less hard as plugs and screening may be superior at minimising inteference. However, if the same data eventually gates through via a cheaper cable then my guess is the two cables will likely give the same end result thereby causing people to automatically deduce that they are as good as eachother.
I think more expensive cables tend to 'buy' more peace of mind that the cabling will not be a compromise and of couse there's nothing wrong with that if you have the money.
I think shreddy summed it up quite nicely.
I can't help feeling that there must be equipment available that can objectively analyse the signal going in one end of a cable and compare it with the signal coming out of the other end. Maybe someone with an electronics engineering background would care to comment?
I can't help feeling that there must be equipment available that can objectively analyse the signal going in one end of a cable and compare it with the signal coming out of the other end. Maybe someone with an electronics engineering background would care to comment?
Dave_
Well-known member
smithdom:
I think shreddy summed it up quite nicely.
I can't help feeling that there must be equipment available that can objectively analyse the signal going in one end of a cable and compare it with the signal coming out of the other end. Maybe someone with an electronics engineering background would care to comment?
There is and it's called BER testing (Bit Error Rate) But that will only tell you how a cable performs in isolation under test conditions, How it performs when it's connected between two pieces's of kit and tangled up whith the rest of the spaghetti may be a different outcome,
But i dont think it will make any difference to these endless cable "debate's".Because whether your a sceptic or believer if the data collected from any test's is opposite to what you have seen or not seen with your own eyes are you really going to replace all your cables!
I think shreddy summed it up quite nicely.
I can't help feeling that there must be equipment available that can objectively analyse the signal going in one end of a cable and compare it with the signal coming out of the other end. Maybe someone with an electronics engineering background would care to comment?
There is and it's called BER testing (Bit Error Rate) But that will only tell you how a cable performs in isolation under test conditions, How it performs when it's connected between two pieces's of kit and tangled up whith the rest of the spaghetti may be a different outcome,
But i dont think it will make any difference to these endless cable "debate's".Because whether your a sceptic or believer if the data collected from any test's is opposite to what you have seen or not seen with your own eyes are you really going to replace all your cables!
daveh75:But i dont think it will make any difference to these endless cable "debate's".Because whether your a sceptic or believer if the data collected from any test's is opposite to what you have seen or not seen with your own eyes are you really going to replace all your cables!
It would make a difference to me. I can't distinguish the performance between my QED (£18) and my CYK (£5). If a BER test proved the QED to have a meaningfully lower BER than the CYK then the next cable I buy is more likely to be a QED than a CYK, even though swapping the cables doesn't reveal a difference to my eyes.
By meaningfully I mean by an amount that a qualified electrical engineer would expect to make a difference to the performance that could be noticed by a human being.
It would make a difference to me. I can't distinguish the performance between my QED (£18) and my CYK (£5). If a BER test proved the QED to have a meaningfully lower BER than the CYK then the next cable I buy is more likely to be a QED than a CYK, even though swapping the cables doesn't reveal a difference to my eyes.
By meaningfully I mean by an amount that a qualified electrical engineer would expect to make a difference to the performance that could be noticed by a human being.
smithdom:
I think shreddy summed it up quite nicely.
I can't help feeling that there must be equipment available that can objectively analyse the signal going in one end of a cable and compare it with the signal coming out of the other end. Maybe someone with an electronics engineering background would care to comment?
This video compares cheap vs expensive, watch it at about 5mins and 30 seconds where they take the cables to a hd expert.
I think shreddy summed it up quite nicely.
I can't help feeling that there must be equipment available that can objectively analyse the signal going in one end of a cable and compare it with the signal coming out of the other end. Maybe someone with an electronics engineering background would care to comment?
This video compares cheap vs expensive, watch it at about 5mins and 30 seconds where they take the cables to a hd expert.
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