So who won the great bake off?

[SemiChronic]

Ive been watching this thread with interest. So thanks to all involved.

From the outset, i was routing for the LindsayT Frankenstein System to win for 2 reasons

1. To highlight what can be had on a small budget

2. To put some fun back into hifi

I can understand the need and appreciation for AVIs in a Bose Lifestyle kind of choice. But i think it will be some years yet before box swappers and tweakers become extinct and actives loose the 'Computer Speakers' stigma

 

[lindsayt]

I found the AVI's with sub boring to listen to.

NVAHifi once described the AVI 9's as "Flat, unmusical and boring". Whilst it could be argued that that's a bit harsh or overly negative it also happens to be true.

And the same thing applies to AVI DM10's. Flat, unmusical and boring.

The trouble is, there are far too many flat, unmusical and boring speakers around.

If you want to put a positive spin on things. Describe the DM10's (with sub) as smooth. The DM10's are oversmooth.

 

[plastic penguin]

In reporting the bake-off I want to avoid over-statement and I want to avoid under-statement.

It's be easy for me to say the EV's thrashed the AVI's or the EV's kicked the AVI's butt all over the room. But that would be sensationalist hyperbole.

On the other hand there was no doubt that AVI's didn't sound as good. And that you didn't need golden ears to hear it.

 

Coming back to andrewjvt's marks from the first bake-off. He described the ATC's as an 8.5 and the AVI's as a 10.

At Fridays bake-off he said that the ATC's were putting up a better relative performance than at the first bake-off. My speculation is that the the ATC's had home advantage on Friday and andrewjvt clearly knows how to set up his system properly.

Anyway, I think it'd be reasonable and accurate to raise the ATC to an 8.75 for the 2nd bake-off whilst keeping the AVI's at a 10. Using that scale I would put the EV system at a Spinal Tap 11.

Actually 11 is a bit of a lazy round number and want accurate statement here.

I'd put the EV's with Korneff amplification at an 11.1 and the EV's with the Creek amplification at a 10.9.

This is the sort of marking scheme that is subjective. I could fully understand why another listener might give the EV system a 10.4 or an 11.5.

 

Next. A bit more on quantifying the size of the differences...

Thanks Lindsayt. Like Chebby I'm stunned, although probably for different reasons.

Can I flip this test on its head? What was actually wrong with the Hegel/ATC set-up? Sorry, I've a number of posts here but no-one has stated the problem with the said kit?

 

[SemiChronic]

Ive just read what i typed, i didnt mean to come across as inflammatory, so apologies if my post seems that way.

Regarding the smoothness of the AVIs, would anyone liken it to putting a mediocre amp on the end of good speakers? Meaning that most things are there, but not quite?

 

[luckylion100]

[/quote]

But if we reverse course: Do you have any short answer as to why you think the AVIs performed better than the ATCs? If you’d like to answer, of course.

I'm not trying to nag here, hope it doesn't come off that way... I'm just very interested in the technical aspects that may explain our subjective experiences of sound.

[/quote]

Now sadly we seem to be entering DM10 bashing terrority again, shame... surely that doesn't put the Hegel/ATC combo in a very positive light?

 

[avole]

on hddaudio about this thread. Ashley reckons thatpeople mistake PA speakers boom for quality, while lpv reckons he was drunk.

Well worth a read!

 

[luckylion100]

hs lost any real meaning or relevance as only one participant has fed back to the forum. Was it agreed that Lindsayt was the sole spokesperson? Is IPV still pissed?! ;-)

The Hegel/ATC hardly get a worthwhile mention and a certain dislike is beginning to rear its ugly head.

It wasn't a 2 way speaker shoot out between the EV's and the AVI's and I'm glad I'm not alone in making this point.

 

[lindsayt]

Ok, I will do some searching, then

But if we reverse course: Do you have any short answer as to why you think the AVIs performed better than the ATCs? If you’d like to answer, of course.

I'm not trying to nag here, hope it doesn't come off that way... I'm just very interested in the technical aspects that may explain our subjective experiences of sound.

Let's do a bit of logical problem solving and eliminate the things that weren't major factors in the sound differences, which might leave us with what's left.

So, ATC's came last, AVI's second, EV's first.

It wasn't down to the mains cables. I used IEC cables that I got for free that were previously used to power IT equipment.

It wasn't down to the source. We used lpv's laptop on both the AVI and EV system. There were no major sonic differences between my £15 CD player and his laptop.

Wasn't down to active or passive pre-amp. Again I used both - I think. I'm assuming the Creek integrated has an active pre-amp stage in it?

Wasn't down to valves vs solid state. I used both with the EV's.

It wasn't down to amplifier power. I used a 2 watt and later a 40 watt amp. Andrewjvt used a 250 watt amp with the ATC's.

It wasn't down to the speaker leads. I was using 15 metre runs of B&Q 79 strand cable. Andrewjvt had some lovely looking thick custom made speaker leads. The AVI's had the internal wiring.

Wasn't down to stands or supports. EV's are floorstanders. Stands looked fine and plenty good enough for both the ATC's and AVI's. My amps and CD players were placed on a dining table.

It probably wasn't down to the room matching some speakers more than others. We were in a UK average sized living room. The photo I posted near the start of this thread was taken with the camera close to the rear wall.

It wasn't down to the type of crossover. A passive system sounded best, followed by an active one, followed by a passive one.

So. What does that leave us with?

 

[hg]

the only reason I ask is that at the time of the very first bake off thread the active fanboys where making big clams about active speakers and kind of putting down passive speakers which I do not agree with .

Active vs passive crossovers is one of the rare cases where one side has all the technical advantages and no technical disadvantages. The reason home audio still uses passive crossovers is purely because of other considerations. However, the difference between a well designed and implemented passive crossover and an active equivalent will not be large. Double however, active DSP crossovers can do things passive crossovers (and analogue active crossovers which I suspect AVI uses) cannot and this is starting to be used to control directivity bringing significant improvements to sound quality.

 

[oivavoi10]

Now sadly we seem to be entering DM10 bashing terrority again, shame... surely that doesn't put the Hegel/ATC combo in a very positive light?

Agreed. I really don't understand this need some people seem to have to bash AVI. After all, the results reported in so far is that a guy who's on record for being very critical towards AVI in the past, now states after hearing them that they were substantially better than a much more expensive system of comparable size.

And if I may say so, Lindsayt: I actually think that your inherent scepticism of AVI suddenly got the better of you. Just some posts ago, you were stating that the Hegel/ATC combo was very decent, that improvements after that were small and incremental, and that it was an impressive achievement of AVI to surpass that system. You also stated that you weren't sure whether you would be able to distinguish the AVIs from your own system in a blind-test. Now, all of a sudden, they've become "boring". That is a rather harsh statement, and I'm not sure whether this is the actual listener speaking, or rather the hifi guy who was sceptical of AVI before, and who's now interpreting his listening experiences after the fact by using categories he already had in place ("the AVIs sound flat and boring" etc). Are you sure you want to stand by that statement?

 

[steve_1979]

Very interesting results. Got to admit that I'm quite suprised but it's certainly piqued my interest regarding big ol' speakers such as EVs, JBLs and the like. It's got me wondering again what the JBL M2 might sound like.

I once heard some big ol' wardrobe sized Tannoy 15" concentrics. They sounded quite nice but I wasn't higely impressed either.

I'd still be interested to hear what Andrew and Darius have to say. So far the only comment from them was from Darius on the AVI forum saying

"I was drunk.. can't remember a thing

"

 

[lindsayt]

hs lost any real meaning or relevance as only one participant has fed back to the forum. Was it agreed that Lindsayt was the sole spokesperson? Is IPV still pissed?! ;-)

The Hegel/ATC hardly get a worthwhile mention and a certain dislike is beginning to rear its ugly head.

It wasn't a 2 way speaker shoot out between the EV's and the AVI's and I'm glad I'm not alone in making this point.

luckylion100, I'd like to refer you to post #37 in this thread.

If you want to know more about how the ATC compares to the AVI read the excellent comments that andrewjvt and lpv made in the first bake-off thread that I linked to in post #37.

And are you suggesting in any way that the full report that I've given in this thread is anything less than the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?

If you are, I have a simple answer. I can bring the EV system to a place of your choosing where you will have the opportunity to find out for yourself, how they compare to your DM10's to your ears with your test tracks. But please bear in mind, these are 70 kg speakers that reside upstairs in my house.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

I think it's a case of swings and roundabouts

I've said before system matching is important put the wrong speakers with the wrong amp then you will not get the best out of them speakers .

 

[Andrewjvt]

What suprised me was the clarity of the Ev sentry. I thought that they would sound 'big' and 'unrefined' but was amazed by the quality. They certainly make the music sound like its playing live in your house. Very nice sound and all from a 1.8w amp.

The fact that they sounded the best is no way a reflection on my hegel amp. In fact we even wanted to hook it up to the sentrys but the connections were different and we were all tired by then.

The atcs did not sound bad. Just less clear in direct comparison.

The avis are very clear speakers but more smooth than the ev sentrys which in turn adds to the real live in the room in direct comparison with the sentrys comming out more direct with pianno and vilolin etc and sounding more in the room live real.
They all sounded good though and there are no bad choice here imo.

On there own all 3 systems were very high quality and i felt that the atcs improved over last time.

The avis £200 sub sounded much better this time around and the avis sound a lot bigger than they are. Think of it as a 40 pound bull terrier scrapping with a 160 pound rottie.

Ive already wrote my thoughts in the first thread and they still stand.

So now ill build those massive k100 kit speakers and we will have to have another test once they are built next year.

 

[thewinelake.]

Just a quickie to congratulate LindsayT on being so informative about the event, and particularly for going to the effort to take the mountain to Muhammed, so to speak - you must be pretty fit!

I'm pleased that the results came out that way, despite being a fan of AVI speakers - I can't even justify room space for DM10s and have to content myself with poxy DM5s. It does put some of the romance back into HiFi to know that hours or days spent trawling auction sites etc can turn up stunningly good results.

 

[thewinelake.]

I wonder how a tri-amped EVIII with active crossover would sound? Have you tried that, Lindsay?

 

[plastic penguin]

What suprised me was the clarity of the Ev sentry. I thought that they would sound 'big' and 'unrefined' but was amazed by the quality. They certainly make the music sound like its playing live in your house. Very nice sound and all from a 1.8w amp.

The fact that they sounded the best is no way a reflection on my hegel amp. In fact we even wanted to hook it up to the sentrys but the connections were different and we were all tired by then.

The atcs did not sound bad. Just less clear in direct comparison.

The avis are very clear speakers but more smooth than the ev sentrys which in turn adds to the real live in the room in direct comparison with the sentrys comming out more direct with pianno and vilolin etc and sounding more in the room live real. They all sounded good though and there are no bad choice here imo.

On there own all 3 systems were very high quality and i felt that the atcs improved over last time.

The avis £200 sub sounded much better this time around and the avis sound a lot bigger than they are. Think of it as a 40 pound bull terrier scrapping with a 160 pound rottie.

Ive already wrote my thoughts in the first thread and they still stand.

So now ill build those massive k100 kit speakers and we will have to have another test once they are built next year.

Purely in the context of the test, could it not be that the synergy between the Hegel and ATCs is a little off kilter?

We know that system synergy far outweighs star ratings and awards. I would guess that ATC amplification with the 11s would be a better match in such a tight test.

In isolation, though, Hegel and 11s would be all that anyone would need.

 

[lpv]

First of all – Andrew, Lindsay thanks guys for an interesting evening.

EV - I was really looking to have a listen to these heavy and ugly beasts.

Expectations? Wooly boomy bass, recessed midrange, muffled top.

Reality: wow, controlled/ no boom bass, forward midrange, ear piercing (on the edge but no crossing the line), no hiss, lively top

Comments: it was really Avi vs EV. I was shocked how good these dinosaurs put the musical message across. My first comment was: wow, it sounds so modern, almost like a good monitor. The piano was more real, what you would expect from a grand piano; Orchestra bit congested on EVs and less so on Avis.

I couldn’t hear much difference in stereo image between the two, soundstage front to back was more forward/ in your face on EVs.. I’m not sure how these behave over long sessions? You need to be sitting at least 3 meters away from Ev’s otherwise you’ll hear separate drivers rather than sum of them. Avis and EV’s weren’t far off and Avis weren’t boring and unmusical ( I think this comment is unfair).. the biggest difference was in the upper midrange and top: Avis smooth, EVs more lively.. otherwise very similar. … I feel I did not spend enough time to have a proper view on the EVs and can’t really comment on a violin reproduction… anyway, I think Avis and Evs are both interesting speakers.

Aesthetics? well, you decide.

 

[radiorog]

Would just like to comment on alleged"avi bashing". I haven't perceived any since the bake off. Lindsay has been very informative with his conclusions and has been diplomatic in not coming out with the strongest and boldest statements first. If he says he finds a speaker boring, why would anyone have a reason to disbelieve him? He clearly has been used to listening to high quality sound, better than that of the avi's, which then make listening to said avi, boring in comparison. If he says it, why would anyone have the right to say he is wrong in his opinion? It doesn't mean that the speakers are genuinely boring, or they wouldn't have so many avid fans, just that Lindsays tastes are different/maybe higher??? (To be discussed I'm sure).

 

[lpv]

If you were a blind man and had no consideration for the asthetics would you pick the DM10s or EVs?

moi?

 

[steve_1979]

...controlled/ no boom bass, forward midrange, ear piercing (on the edge but no crossing the line), no hiss, lively top...

This seems like an unusual choice of words considering that you said you really like them too. There are a lot of negatives along with the positives.

If you were a blind man and had no consideration for the asthetics would you pick the DM10s or EVs for your everyday speakers.

 

[lindsayt]

thewinelake, no I haven't. At home I only use the EV Sentries with my Creek amp to watch TV, DVD's and Blu-rays with my projector system.

 

[lpv]

...controlled/ no boom bass, forward midrange, ear piercing (on the edge but no crossing the line), no hiss, lively top...

This seems like an unusual choice of words considering that you said you really like them too.

There are a lot of negatives along with the positives.

what do u mean Steve? I was as accurate as possible with the description..

 

[steve_1979]

moi?

Anyone who was there.

 

[Frank Harvey]

I think it's a case of swings and roundabouts

I've said before system matching is important put the wrong speakers with the wrong amp then you will not get the best out of them speakers .

Agreed. And preference still plays a huge part in what we like the sound of. Generally, you'd be hard pushed to sway someone away from the sound they like, or the sound they've been used to for quite some time.