Lindsayt, I for one am really curious about how you'd compare the Sentrys to the other two setups (especially with the AVIs, as you think they were the best). I'd also be interested in your opinions as to WHY you think the Sentrys sounded better - since that seems to be your opinion.
luckylion I've been composing what I will say about the DM10's vs the Sentries.luckylion100 said:
Don't worry. I will spill the beans and tell all. In my own good time.
steve_1979
Well-known member
No. it proves it is marketing ********. He?s delighted his speakers won. He may be a *****, but he knows what he is talkng about.luckylion100 said:
At face value, yes, but I think it was a poorly signalled joke in reference to that MadOne thread.
I agree with you LindsayT, and almost hope nobody else reports back!
I agree with you LindsayT, and almost hope nobody else reports back!
I really think we should try and keep this thread constructive, and not start any bashing and name-calling even before the full experiences of the participants have been reported in. As to what has emerged so far, I think it's actually a bit promising - I think all sides in this "AVI war" have been proved right to a certain point. According to Lindsay's post in another forum (which is run by a guy some people apparently see as evil), all the participants agreed both on which system sounded the worst (the ATCs), and which sounded the best (the Sentrys). It's not clear yet how much better the participants thought that the Sentrys were compared with the AVIs. I guess there might have been differences of opinion as to the magnitude of the differences.
On the one hand, this proves the point that AVI owners often have made: That an AVI system can sound much better than very expensive traditional systems, consisting an amplifier and passive speakers. Both the ATCs and the Hegel 300, mind you, are highly regarded. And yet, there seems to be complete agreement among the participants that the AVIs sounded much better than the ATC/Hegel system. This agreement seems to include Lindsay as well, who I think has been critical of AVI in the past (sorry if I'm wrong about this, Lindsay). In this sense AVI's claim has been vindicated, I think: If one wants to have really really good sound, going the AVI route might be one of the easiest and cheapest.
On the other hand, if the Sentrys were indeed preferred by all the participants, it shows that some of the most hyperbolic claims made by AVI and by some AVI owners are exaggerated. The Sentrys are passive, methinks. Still, there seems to be some agreement that they sounded better than the AVIs. This means that passive speakers can indeed outperform active speakers. There may be different reasons as for why the participants preferred the Sentrys. My guess is that it may be down to the size of the woofer, partly, and the tweeter is hornloaded (I'm a huge fan of horns, if it's done well).
I'm still looking forward to reading more about the results. But based on what has leaked out, I think this should serve as food for thought for people on both sides. The active crowd (including me) may be advised to show some more humility with regards to the merits of certain passive speakers. The passive crowd may be advised to acknowledge that active speakers very often will provide superior value for money, and may outperform many passive speakers in the same price range.
That's what I take away from this so far, at least. All in all, I think this is a positive thing.
On the one hand, this proves the point that AVI owners often have made: That an AVI system can sound much better than very expensive traditional systems, consisting an amplifier and passive speakers. Both the ATCs and the Hegel 300, mind you, are highly regarded. And yet, there seems to be complete agreement among the participants that the AVIs sounded much better than the ATC/Hegel system. This agreement seems to include Lindsay as well, who I think has been critical of AVI in the past (sorry if I'm wrong about this, Lindsay). In this sense AVI's claim has been vindicated, I think: If one wants to have really really good sound, going the AVI route might be one of the easiest and cheapest.
On the other hand, if the Sentrys were indeed preferred by all the participants, it shows that some of the most hyperbolic claims made by AVI and by some AVI owners are exaggerated. The Sentrys are passive, methinks. Still, there seems to be some agreement that they sounded better than the AVIs. This means that passive speakers can indeed outperform active speakers. There may be different reasons as for why the participants preferred the Sentrys. My guess is that it may be down to the size of the woofer, partly, and the tweeter is hornloaded (I'm a huge fan of horns, if it's done well).
I'm still looking forward to reading more about the results. But based on what has leaked out, I think this should serve as food for thought for people on both sides. The active crowd (including me) may be advised to show some more humility with regards to the merits of certain passive speakers. The passive crowd may be advised to acknowledge that active speakers very often will provide superior value for money, and may outperform many passive speakers in the same price range.
That's what I take away from this so far, at least. All in all, I think this is a positive thing.
radiorog
Well-known member
oivavoi10 said:
well written and a very good take. I can only assume that an active version of the sentrys..........well, you know ;-)
radiorog
Well-known member
steve_1979
Well-known member
avole said:
I'd say it's boring rather than interesting.
avole said:
Good point though. Where have Darius and Andrew disappeared to? *unknw*
oivavoi10 said:
with reference to price and value for money, one of lindsayt 'a points is that by buying second hand you can get better performance for your money. I'm assuming that the sentrys and amp used with them were cheaper than the AVIs.
Still, they'd be totally unworkable in most of the places I've lived, but if looks and space aren't an issue, it goes to show what you can achieve if sound quality is your first priority.
Signed
An active speaker fanboi
Being the person referred to I take extreme offense at this. Has anyone seen fit to report it or do I have to.
Anyway the simple answer to the lack of information is to read this www.hifisubjectivist.org and link to atc v avi v ev bake off
Richard Dunn
EDIT - I am confused how to use this forum. I am refering to post 29 by avole
Anyway the simple answer to the lack of information is to read this www.hifisubjectivist.org and link to atc v avi v ev bake off
Richard Dunn
EDIT - I am confused how to use this forum. I am refering to post 29 by avole
oivavoi10 said:
A shame this is completely missed by someone else that now seemingly has to resort to personal insults. I never believed it was cut and dry one way or the other but some continually tar others of an opposing view with one one giant brush.
ID, as for the cost of Lindsayt's set up, if you add the combined total up there's not much difference with the DM10's (without sub) from what I can see. The equipment is listed in the first post of this link. But let's remember, many people going the active route are doing so because they're either tired of box swapping or simply don't have the space...
I'll say no more as far as this thread is concerned.
http://hifisubjectivist.org/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=47998
For the first part of the bake-off my system comprised:
Denon C630 CD player. Bought off ebay for £15
NVA P50SA. Bought off ebay a few weeks ago for £166
Korneff 45 SET clone. Bought new from Tube Audio Lab for c£1250
EV Sentry III's. Bought off ebay for £415. Plus about £80 in parts to replace the rotted foam surrounds and fix 1 tweeter (both faults declared by seller in his listing).
When we tried lpv's laptop (using the analog output) with my system we found that the volume was too low, even on maximum setting. The Korneff clone has much lower gain than any other amplifier that I own. When used with a laptop like this it would really need an active pre-amp, unless you were using it for late night listening.
So I swapped the P50SA and the 45 SET for a Creek CAS4040 (bought new in 1983 for £99). This led to a small reduction in midrange resolution and realism. The Creek is, after all, the worst sounding amplifier I've ever bought - which is forgiveable given that it's only an ultra budget integrated.
Total system cost for the first half of the bake-off was £1950. For the second half £630.
I think andrewjvt and lpv pretty much covered the costs of their systems in the first bake-off thread?
Denon C630 CD player. Bought off ebay for £15
NVA P50SA. Bought off ebay a few weeks ago for £166
Korneff 45 SET clone. Bought new from Tube Audio Lab for c£1250
EV Sentry III's. Bought off ebay for £415. Plus about £80 in parts to replace the rotted foam surrounds and fix 1 tweeter (both faults declared by seller in his listing).
When we tried lpv's laptop (using the analog output) with my system we found that the volume was too low, even on maximum setting. The Korneff clone has much lower gain than any other amplifier that I own. When used with a laptop like this it would really need an active pre-amp, unless you were using it for late night listening.
So I swapped the P50SA and the 45 SET for a Creek CAS4040 (bought new in 1983 for £99). This led to a small reduction in midrange resolution and realism. The Creek is, after all, the worst sounding amplifier I've ever bought - which is forgiveable given that it's only an ultra budget integrated.
Total system cost for the first half of the bake-off was £1950. For the second half £630.
I think andrewjvt and lpv pretty much covered the costs of their systems in the first bake-off thread?
luckylion100 said:
Simply don't have the space. Works well with my computer setup. Being able to tweak the settings to compensate for placement, all all major factors why I use actives.
lindsayt, thanks for clarifying the prices when I was too lazy to refer back.
It's good to be able to put in perspective some of the more outlandish claims about products and show what can be achieved for the money. It would have been great to be there.
Part of my enjoyment of this hobby is learning about the different ways one can go about getting the sound one wants, and I think there can be merits and pleasures to them all.
I also think that, despite the frequent friction on here, pretty much everyone on the forum would get on pretty well if they met in real life at a bake off like this (and no, it would not just be the threat of things breaking down to a fist fight keeping everyone polite).
Thanks for taking the time and effort to hold the bake off and the time and effort you are putting into your impressions.
I look forward to reading them all.
steve_1979
Well-known member
ID.
It is important to get some 'perspective' on what we are dealing with here.
We all know what the modern equipment costs, this is, more or less a fixed retail price, but a pair of EV Sentry 111 could cost almost anything. In the same way as you might pick up a Patek Philippe for £50 in a car boot sale (unlikely but possible) the price paid for an item secondhand may not really reflect its worth.
The 'market price' of a pair of Sentry 111 in decent condition is likely to be in excess of $2000, possibly more, especially if bought on the european market, or through a dealer. The nearest equivilent speaker, available to buy new at the present time, is probably the Klipsch Cornwall, over £4000 pr.
It is important to get some 'perspective' on what we are dealing with here.
We all know what the modern equipment costs, this is, more or less a fixed retail price, but a pair of EV Sentry 111 could cost almost anything. In the same way as you might pick up a Patek Philippe for £50 in a car boot sale (unlikely but possible) the price paid for an item secondhand may not really reflect its worth.
The 'market price' of a pair of Sentry 111 in decent condition is likely to be in excess of $2000, possibly more, especially if bought on the european market, or through a dealer. The nearest equivilent speaker, available to buy new at the present time, is probably the Klipsch Cornwall, over £4000 pr.
radiorog
Well-known member
Yep,thats interesting. Puts things into a more realistic perspective. Thanks dave.davedotco said:
davedotco said:
Exactly. Going secondhand, there are also some very good active speakers to be had on the cheap (I recently saw the over-sized studio monitor Dynaudio Air 25 for sale, for a rather low asking price. No waf factor to speak of... but me wants!). If one chooses to go down the DIY route, one might also be able to put together a kick-ass system for very little money - assuming one has the know-how, or follows through on a well-regarded plan. The most reasonable way of comparing the value for money aspect, IMO, is to look a retail prices for new equipment. In that regard, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that active speakers such as AVI (and others) represent superior value for money. I also think that the fairest comparison for a speaker such as the AVI DM10 are other speakers of approximately the same size.
I agree that the Klipsch Cornwall is a very good comparison with the Sentrys. 15-inch woofer, and hornloaded tweeter. Think it's a killer combination. I've never heard them myself, but I'm intrigued by them. I know people who've heard them who have a taste in hifi similar to my own, and they think that the Cornwalls are among the best and most "natural-sounding" commerically available speakers today. They won't fit on a neat bookshelf next to your TV, though.
davedotco said:
Oh, I agree, and I don't fully subscribe to lindsayt's philosophy or that it's as easy as he makes out. Nevertheless, it is interesting and arguably achievable. not really a fair comparison when inflation and original pricing are factored in. Ive frequently commented that despite what he paid it isn't really a realistic comparison.
Ive checked out the prices some of his suggested kit sells for here, and it's nowhere near as cheap. Maybe if I spent a long time on auction sites, etc. something may turn up, but the market is different and people selling that kit will do so to dealers specializing in 2nd hand kit, so there's a considerable markup. There's also probably a bigger market for some of these big classic speakers, with more people willing to shell out for them.
There's also the factor that spending a significant amount of time just searching for a suitably cheap model includes externalized costs. for lindsayt the time spent looking, fixing the speakers, researching, etc Is treated as free (not incurring any cost), probably because it's a fun part of the hobby for him. For me it sounds like work, and probably equivalent to several thousand dollars worth of billable hours for me .
Anyway, my feeling is that the bake off is just meant to be a bit of fun and a chance to hear and directly compare a variety of equipment. The DM10s vs the Hegel and ATC combo is a more direct comparison, but I'm still interested in hearing about the capabilities of kit like the Sentries that I've never listened to (still not interested enough to seek them out and audition them myself, even though I'm sure there are a number of dealers with them in Tokyo) Maybe not so interesting for davedotco because he has experience with them.
No, it's not. The comments you made re Ashley on PFM and other forums the day after his wife died were. You, and RD, could have shown at least a little sympathy. You could also ask members of RDs forum to cut down on bad mouthing manufacturers, and members of other forums - you're a moderator, I read somewhere ?lindsayt said:
Back on topic, any response from the other bake-off participants yet? It seems odd that they've not, assuming they've been on line, of course.
But, hey, it's only HiFi as a great man once said.
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