Shame AVI nobbled their Lab series of amps

[plastic penguin]

I can understand why they weren't keen on producing CDPs... making a few amps could have been a good addition to their current active ranges.

As I mentioned before, I heard their amp in circa 2004 at Unilet Hi-fi and it was quite impressive, although can't recall the speakers used. Let's face it there are dinosaurs like me who like old fashioned boxes.

 

[Ashley James]

I can understand why they weren't keen on producing CDPs... making a few amps could have been a good addition to their current active ranges.

As I mentioned before, I heard their amp in circa 2004 at Unilet Hi-fi and it was quite impressive, although can't recall the speakers used. Let's face it there are dinosaurs like me who like old fashioned boxes.

Three reasons

1. No longer a worthwhile demand. Separates out of favour

2. Price rises of raw materials because of Chinese demand. Retail prices would have to have gone up further reducing sales.

3. Relatively inexpensive competition so good, we could no longer make a demonstrably superior SQ by conventional methods. Customers wanted single box solutions, so that's what we designed, to go with Apple because they were driving the market. Huge success for us.

If we hadn't done what we did, we'd have to have ceased trading and rent out the factory. Instead, I had a job for ten years, five past retirement and now investors are taking over and investing in our growth.

 

[plastic penguin]

Could you not have sourced materials from the far east and fight fire with fire? Or wasn't their an appetite for a fight at the time?

Granted, most people like your actives but they're not for everyone. You could have sold direct and used the dealers mark up and made a killing. There are some companies who make components on demand and that would negate any stock issues.

I think your Labs retailed around £1500 at the time which is well within the pockets of a lot of traditional buyers.

 

[thewinelake.]

Seems to me that AVI really like to focus and keep their product catalogue small - maybe to an excessive degree! One example is that one can't get DM9/10 in double-slave mode (where you'd have a central preamp and each speaker connected by a line level cable). This would (to my mind) require very little change on production line, and would sell well to those who wish to retain some of their legacy kit, or would make a nice companion to a Yamaha CXN50 or similar, but it's not their target market (iDevice + Airport Express owners)

Perhaps the new owners will be on for this kind of thing.

 

[Ashley James]

As I said there was no demand for separates any more. In the second hand market I believe they sell well, but not new. Hi fi sales had been falling for years.

The Amp was £1650 and the ADM9s were then £1125 and no passive speakers on earth attached to the amp sounded anywhere near as good, so how on earth could we offer both.

We made what we could sell and for ten years now, they've been doing really well.

if you want a good integrated, Yamaha do a beauty for £229 and some amazingly good speakers for the same price. You'd struggle to better them.

 

[lindsayt]

As I said there was no demand for separates any more. In the second hand market I believe they sell well, but not new. Hi fi sales had been falling for years.

The Amp was £1650 and the ADM9s were then £1125 and no passive speakers on earth attached to the amp sounded anywhere near as good, so how on earth could we offer both.

We made what we could sell and for ten years now, they've been doing really well.

if you want a good integrated, Yamaha do a beauty for £229 and some amazingly good speakers for the same price. You'd struggle to better them.

Ashley James, I would like to refer you to the House Rules, stickied at the top of this section of the What Hi-fi forums.

Specificallly Rule number 12:

12. Trade members, dealers, manufacturers and their PRs must not use the forums to blatantly 'promote' products they sell or distribute.

I would also like to add that AVI ADM9s are in fact quite ordinary sounding small 2 way speakers. And that there are many passive speakers that sound overall better than them.

 

[Ashley James]

Lindsay

Mine is a statement of fact and you ought to know that because reasonable explanations of the benefits of active speakers have appeared here regularly. I don't think you understand them because you usually refute them and respond with pseudo technical nonsense.

In simple terms what I've said, and this applies to any competent actives, (a lot aren't) the following benefits apply

1. Because the Amp comes after the crossover, it is connected directly to its driver and can control it better. Typically about 300 times better. This is a proven fact.

2. Crossover filters can be much steeper on Active speakers, so that out of band nasties can be rendered inaudible. We use 8th order filters or 48dB/Oct because with a DSP evaluation package that enabled us to listen to speakers while we moved the crossover up and down and change the slope, we were able to show that anything less was audible. 2nd order was really bad and yet you've stated 1st would be fine.

There's a lot more than these two, but they're enough on their own.

As far as members of this forum are concerned, I expect they'd like to know how this might help them, so I'll explain.

If you go and audition an inexpensive pair of active speakers from a reputable company like Yamaha, they'll cost about £250 and work from your phone, you'll find they're much more clear than whatever you have now and they'll image better. The drivers will be very cheap, yet this will still be obvious. We have a number of members of our forum who have posted reviews explaining this.

Here's an excerpt from Gilbert Briggs book Loudspeakers. This was published in 1956

 

[thewinelake.]

Ashley James, I would like to refer you to the House Rules, stickied at the top of this section of the What Hi-fi forums.

Specificallly Rule number 12:

12. Trade members, dealers, manufacturers and their PRs must not use the forums to blatantly 'promote' products they sell or distribute.

Aren't you being a bit harsh here? I thought Ashley was simply using the pricing as being behind his decision to stop selling the amp - i.e. they couldn't sell something they didn't believe offered the best value for money. Not really a blatant plug.

Clearly the active vs passive thing is a matter of taste, no matter how much the two of you (and your followers) seem to disagree. Repeatedly stating your beliefs (both of you!) isn't really advancing the discussion.

Hopefully, those coming here for enlightenment will work out for themselves that they should try to audition various options (quite hard for AVI, it must be said) before making their own decision. Just hope that not too many hifi merchants attempt to pass off the Dali Zensor powered speakers as representative of active speakers, as it could put people off for life!

 

[Ashley James]

Andrew

I am not expressing an opinion. I'm stating scientifically proven fact. Active speakers, if they're well implemented, are considerably more accurate and neutral. They're better performers and anyone can hear that.

The fact that people prefer turntables, passive speakers or other higher distortion products is irrelevant in the context of my post.

Ash

PS. The science of active speakers was established over sixty years ago. With valves!

 

[Infiniteloop]

As I said there was no demand for separates any more. In the second hand market I believe they sell well, but not new. Hi fi sales had been falling for years.

The Amp was £1650 and the ADM9s were then £1125 and no passive speakers on earth attached to the amp sounded anywhere near as good, so how on earth could we offer both.

We made what we could sell and for ten years now, they've been doing really well.

if you want a good integrated, Yamaha do a beauty for £229 and some amazingly good speakers for the same price. You'd struggle to better them.

"No demand for separates anymore" *ROFL*

 

[radiorog]

if you want a good integrated, Yamaha do a beauty for £229 and some amazingly good speakers for the same price. You'd struggle to better them.

Could you please explain this Ashley..."Struggle to better them". Struggle to better a £229 integrated? How about the Yamaha s2100? Surely this £2000 integrated will better it, considerably? This is to name but one of hundreds of available amps.

Maybe I misunderstood your point?

 

[jcbrum]

Alan Shaw of Harbeth says this . . .

. . . use some basic test equipment to establish a common voltage to the loudspeaker terminals applicable to both amp A and B, which will result from radically[/u] different rotation of the volume controls*, and you will have the greatest difficulty detecting whether you are listening to amp A or B. That I guarantee. And I have offered a pair of M40.1s to anyone who can disprove that, but nobody has taken up the challenge.

JC

 

[steve_1979]

if you want a good integrated, Yamaha do a beauty for £229 and some amazingly good speakers for the same price. You'd struggle to better them.

Could you please explain this Ashley..."Struggle to better them". Struggle to better a £229 integrated? How about the Yamaha s2100? Surely this £2000 integrated will better it, considerably? This is to name but one of hundreds of available amps.

Maybe I misunderstood your point?

I guess what he means is that they'll sound the same provided that both amplifiers were being used within their limits.

If you want to use a speaker that's a difficult load to drive and/or you want to play at higher volume levels which would cause a £229 amplifier to start clipping before the better engineered S2100 would then I have no doubt that the more expensive Yamaha S2100 will perform and sound much better under such conditions. However try and spot a difference when they're both operating within their limits and it would be much harder to tell them apart.

 

[radiorog]

To a point I'd agree, but the window of these limits is way to small to be practical to me. I find that at almost talking level of db, amps of £250 might sound the same as any high priced amp, but most people listen to music above this level. As soon as you go above this relatively low db level, these amps will sound dramatically different, and so practically, IMO, this argument is irrelevant and shouldn't be used.

 

[lpv]

till today I cannot understand why nobody turned up to participate in the challenge ( I would if I had any idea about hifi matters back in 2012) .. soo many gloomy armchair warriors on hifi forums and not a single one curious, not even interested? that speak volumes to me..

 

[tonky]

Hi there,

I think many people (hifi enthusiasts) on the forum have heard plenty of hifi gear over the years to form an opinion on amplifiers and how they sound and (in the context of their own systems) hear enough differences to make solid informed choice.

I've compared (demoed) equipment over the years. I'm sure others have done the same. Given the sound/volume/efficiency/ etc and other variables in the home that may effect the sound quality people find that different amps will effect the sound/music that they hear and so choose accordingly.

regards tonky

 

[plastic penguin]

C'mon guys and gals. Didn't want this to turn in to another them and us. I thought I'd ask the question about integrated amps as Ashley has now re-joined.

I'm not going to sell my Leema and PMCs, even if it is riddled with distortion, according to the active experts.

The only thing Ashley and I have in common: Classic and vintage cars.

 

[Ashley James]

C'mon guys and gals. Didn't want this to turn in to another them and us. I thought I'd ask the question about integrated amps as Ashley has now re-joined.

I'm not going to sell my Leema and PMCs, even if it is riddled with distortion, according to the active experts.

The only thing Ashley and I have in common: Classic and vintage cars.

As Steve says, you won't hear any difference between amplifiers that aren't being operated beyond their limits.

I hope you don't think I was somehow suggesting you sell your current hi fi system because I'm not.

Really what happened was that I got fed up that every time I looked at an AVI thread I saw misleading drivel about us, always from the same small group.

I do still have a couple of classic cars.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

if you want a good integrated, Yamaha do a beauty for £229 and some amazingly good speakers for the same price. You'd struggle to better them.

Could you please explain this Ashley..."Struggle to better them". Struggle to better a £229 integrated? How about the Yamaha s2100? Surely this £2000 integrated will better it, considerably? This is to name but one of hundreds of available amps.

Maybe I misunderstood your point?

the Yamaha S2100 would be better then the cheapest integrated even at low volumes I am happy to prove it if Ashley struggle to believe this .

I would not buy active speakers as I am not into Micky mouse speakers that are way over priced and only good for classical music if I did one day go active it would be with the bigger companies .

and I do understand the advantages of active I read somewhere there is only a 5% diffrance in sound quality between active and passive speakers . My money goes all day long to passive speakers .

 

[plastic penguin]

C'mon guys and gals. Didn't want this to turn in to another them and us. I thought I'd ask the question about integrated amps as Ashley has now re-joined.

I'm not going to sell my Leema and PMCs, even if it is riddled with distortion, according to the active experts.

The only thing Ashley and I have in common: Classic and vintage cars.

As Steve says, you won't hear any difference between amplifiers that aren't being operated beyond their limits.

I hope you don't think I was somehow suggesting you sell your current hi fi system because I'm not.

Really what happened was that I got fed up that every time I looked at an AVI thread I saw misleading drivel about us, always from the same small group.

I do still have a couple of classic cars.

I'm not suggesting anything. I appreciate those who own active/powered speakers as much as traditional passive set-ups.

If distortion is apperent then I haven't detected any in my system. If that's defined by clarity then in isolastion my set-up hits the mark at every level (based on what I want and expect from a stereo kit).

Yes, my passion for classic cars is without bounds. I don't own a 'classic' to date, but have owned many - not the exotica of yours - nearly 40 years of driving with a clean record.

 

[tonky]

Hi Blacksabbath - great name - great band (but ozzy is a naughty boy! )

I do enjoy your postings - but you must base criticism on what you have heard

I've never heard these avi dm9 or 10 speakers - but I would very much like to. It's very difficult to criticise something you haven't heard and it sounds as if you haven't heard these speakers (mickey mouse speakers! ) I thought these speakers were supposed to offer very good value being speakers and power amps incorporated together.

You now have a great set up - don't worry about anything else - but don't diss someone elses.

FWIW - I've heard a wide range of amps in my home setting and I can hear differences (obvious to me) between them. And so I agree with what you say about your superior Yamaha. If someone says the differences are so small as to be negligible - that is their prerogative - good luck to them. - I don't agree (just like you BS) . No harm done - let's agree to disagree nicely (if poss!)

cheers tonky

 

[Ashley James]

C'mon guys and gals. Didn't want this to turn in to another them and us. I thought I'd ask the question about integrated amps as Ashley has now re-joined.

I'm not going to sell my Leema and PMCs, even if it is riddled with distortion, according to the active experts.

The only thing Ashley and I have in common: Classic and vintage cars.

As Steve says, you won't hear any difference between amplifiers that aren't being operated beyond their limits.

I hope you don't think I was somehow suggesting you sell your current hi fi system because I'm not.

Really what happened was that I got fed up that every time I looked at an AVI thread I saw misleading drivel about us, always from the same small group.

I do still have a couple of classic cars.

I'm not suggesting anything. I appreciate those who own active/powered speakers as much as traditional passive set-ups.

If distortion is apperent then I haven't detected any in my system. If that's defined by clarity then in isolastion my set-up hits the mark at every level (based on what I want and expect from a stereo kit).

Yes, my passion for classic cars is without bounds. I don't own a 'classic' to date, but have owned many - not the exotica of yours - nearly 40 years of driving with a clean record.

As you've probably noticed, when people hear DMs, they're so blown away with them, they post and it drives forum warriors up the pole, so they rush to denial instead of waiting to they have an opportunity to hear some.

Davedotco tries to tell people that even various cheapies are pretty special but....

 

[plastic penguin]

C'mon guys and gals. Didn't want this to turn in to another them and us. I thought I'd ask the question about integrated amps as Ashley has now re-joined.

I'm not going to sell my Leema and PMCs, even if it is riddled with distortion, according to the active experts.

The only thing Ashley and I have in common: Classic and vintage cars.

As Steve says, you won't hear any difference between amplifiers that aren't being operated beyond their limits.

I hope you don't think I was somehow suggesting you sell your current hi fi system because I'm not.

Really what happened was that I got fed up that every time I looked at an AVI thread I saw misleading drivel about us, always from the same small group.

I do still have a couple of classic cars.

I'm not suggesting anything. I appreciate those who own active/powered speakers as much as traditional passive set-ups.

If distortion is apperent then I haven't detected any in my system. If that's defined by clarity then in isolastion my set-up hits the mark at every level (based on what I want and expect from a stereo kit).

Yes, my passion for classic cars is without bounds. I don't own a 'classic' to date, but have owned many - not the exotica of yours - nearly 40 years of driving with a clean record.

As you've probably noticed, when people hear DMs, they're so blown away with them, they post and it drives forum warriors up the pole, so they rush to denial instead of waiting to they have an opportunity to hear some.

Davedotco tries to tell people that even various cheapies are pretty special but....

I get that. What I don't get is people thrusting so-called better things down people's throats.

I purchased my Leema brand new at bargain basement price (brand new and end of line). Prior to that I spent around 2 years looking for a worthwhile replacement for my Arcam A65+, which I loved. People don't spend that sort of timespan on demoing most of the commericial brands unless you know exactly what you need and expect from a system. I have a certain sound that I crave, and it suits my all analogue set-up.

If I was to start from scratch, and sell my thousands of records and CDs, I would probably look at active speakers. As it stands, I am more than content with my current set-up: It has incredibly taut bass and well defined bass, the top end is well controlled and it's easy to live with.

I've had the Leema for 6 years, if it was pants why would I keep it?

 

[Ashley James]

C'mon guys and gals. Didn't want this to turn in to another them and us. I thought I'd ask the question about integrated amps as Ashley has now re-joined.

I'm not going to sell my Leema and PMCs, even if it is riddled with distortion, according to the active experts.

The only thing Ashley and I have in common: Classic and vintage cars.

As Steve says, you won't hear any difference between amplifiers that aren't being operated beyond their limits.

I hope you don't think I was somehow suggesting you sell your current hi fi system because I'm not.

Really what happened was that I got fed up that every time I looked at an AVI thread I saw misleading drivel about us, always from the same small group.

I do still have a couple of classic cars.

I'm not suggesting anything. I appreciate those who own active/powered speakers as much as traditional passive set-ups.

If distortion is apperent then I haven't detected any in my system. If that's defined by clarity then in isolastion my set-up hits the mark at every level (based on what I want and expect from a stereo kit).

Yes, my passion for classic cars is without bounds. I don't own a 'classic' to date, but have owned many - not the exotica of yours - nearly 40 years of driving with a clean record.

As you've probably noticed, when people hear DMs, they're so blown away with them, they post and it drives forum warriors up the pole, so they rush to denial instead of waiting to they have an opportunity to hear some.

Davedotco tries to tell people that even various cheapies are pretty special but....

I get that. What I don't get is people thrusting so-called better things down people's throats.

I purchased my Leema brand new at bargain basement price (brand new and end of line). Prior to that I spent around 2 years looking for a worthwhile replacement for my Arcam A65+, which I loved. People don't spend that sort of timespan on demoing most of the commericial brands unless you know exactly what you need and expect from a system. I have a certain sound that I crave, and it suits my all analogue set-up.

If I was to start from scratch, and sell my thousands of records and CDs, I would probably look at active speakers. As it stands, I am more than content with my current set-up: It has incredibly taut bass and well defined bass, the top end is well controlled and it's easy to live with.

I've had the Leema for 6 years, if it was pants why would I keep it?

I'm not thrusting anything down your throat and I think most owners are just enthusiastic and want to tell friends.

I also don't think it's a good idea to keep looking for better because, it's expensive and not necessarily satisfying. I'm sure you'd agree that later cars are better than yours for example, but that isn't reason enough to change if the one you have does the job.

Classic cars are terrible compared to moderns, but we all love them. My son has just done 2,400 miles around Europe in my Healey. One hell of a trip but exhausting compared to a modern.

 

[plastic penguin]

C'mon guys and gals. Didn't want this to turn in to another them and us. I thought I'd ask the question about integrated amps as Ashley has now re-joined.

I'm not going to sell my Leema and PMCs, even if it is riddled with distortion, according to the active experts.

The only thing Ashley and I have in common: Classic and vintage cars.

As Steve says, you won't hear any difference between amplifiers that aren't being operated beyond their limits.

I hope you don't think I was somehow suggesting you sell your current hi fi system because I'm not.

Really what happened was that I got fed up that every time I looked at an AVI thread I saw misleading drivel about us, always from the same small group.

I do still have a couple of classic cars.

I'm not suggesting anything. I appreciate those who own active/powered speakers as much as traditional passive set-ups.

If distortion is apperent then I haven't detected any in my system. If that's defined by clarity then in isolastion my set-up hits the mark at every level (based on what I want and expect from a stereo kit).

Yes, my passion for classic cars is without bounds. I don't own a 'classic' to date, but have owned many - not the exotica of yours - nearly 40 years of driving with a clean record.

As you've probably noticed, when people hear DMs, they're so blown away with them, they post and it drives forum warriors up the pole, so they rush to denial instead of waiting to they have an opportunity to hear some.

Davedotco tries to tell people that even various cheapies are pretty special but....

I get that. What I don't get is people thrusting so-called better things down people's throats.

I purchased my Leema brand new at bargain basement price (brand new and end of line). Prior to that I spent around 2 years looking for a worthwhile replacement for my Arcam A65+, which I loved. People don't spend that sort of timespan on demoing most of the commericial brands unless you know exactly what you need and expect from a system. I have a certain sound that I crave, and it suits my all analogue set-up.

If I was to start from scratch, and sell my thousands of records and CDs, I would probably look at active speakers. As it stands, I am more than content with my current set-up: It has incredibly taut bass and well defined bass, the top end is well controlled and it's easy to live with.

I've had the Leema for 6 years, if it was pants why would I keep it?

I'm not thrusting anything down your throat and I think most owners are just enthusiastic and want to tell friends.

I also don't think it's a good idea to keep looking for better because, it's expensive and not necessarily satisfying. I'm sure you'd agree that later cars are better than yours for example, but that isn't reason enough to change if the one you have does the job.

Classic cars are terrible compared to moderns, but we all love them. My son has just done 2,400 miles around Europe in my Healey. One hell of a trip but exhausting compared to a modern.

Ooooo nice Healey. Sadly my classic extend no more than Triumphs (Hearlds, Dolly 1850, Sprints, Stag...). a 1967 Lotus Elan 2+2, Escort XR3 (not the 'i' version) blah blah blah.

If I was single without children I would have TVR Cerbera.

However, getting back to all things vaguely hi-fiish, a lot of AVI owners do try and thrust your product down other people's throat. Whether that's justified or not is another issue. But it doesn't impress me: I know what I've got is cracking. Sometimes you have to concede that some worms aren't for turning