Rothwell in-line attenuators

[bretty]

Tarquinh:
Er - no, that's not what I said, mon ami! Basically if you hear distortion, that's when you need an attenuator. I agree that volume increments at low levels in budget amps can be problematical, and that an attenuator is going to help - in fact my amp has that problem - but an attenuator isn't going to improve the sound of any amp except where there is distortion caused by too high an input voltage.

The whole attenuator/sweet-spot thing is yet another myth I'm afraid.

The 'sweet spot' on an amp's volume control isn't fallacy. More than one person in the trade, that has spoken to me, has referred to the volume dial as being a focusing tool for the sound, not just for making it go louder / quieter. It has been apparent to me on both of the 'proper' systems that I have had over the last few years. For example, the Cyrus 2 that I owned, had a dial that went up in steps. Step 1-6, the sound was muddled with no separation. Step 7-9 was perfection. Past step 9 and the treble hardened.

 

[Anonymous]

Bretty, I don't disagree, especially on budget amps, but whether your amp has a sweetspot or not the attenuator isn't going to do anything with it, except reduce the volume overall.

 

[Anonymous]

This is a very good thread, and something i know nothing about guys. My question is because my cd, pre-amp and power amp are all made by the same company and can be bought as a complete system or as seperates, do you think i would benefit from buying attenuators.

 

[Anonymous]

johnnyjazz, unless you hear distortion there's no point in buying an attenuator. Also, given your equipment, I'd say it's highly unlikely Sugden didn't balance their CD out/Amplifier in perfectly, whether you bought them as a complete system or separates.

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the reply tarquinh, yea i think your right, never had any probs with the suggy at any level, no harm in being curious

 

[idc]

Just to clarify with you Tarquinh. My experience of attenuation is how it benefited my old setup, which had no issues with distortion by creating a larger listenable volume range. That listenable range is what I meant by the sweet spot, not just one particular volume setting.

I have had the same experience with my OOTW cables.

 

[idc]

Johnnyjazz, according to the Sugden specs for their Masterclass series (I dont think they make your model any more) the CDP output is 1.95 volts, but the power amps need 1 volt for maximum output and the integrated amp only uses 125mV.

http://www.sugdenaudio.com/pdf/masterclass_specifications.pdf

As Tarquinh said, that is not necessarily a problem, but it is the issue attenuators are designed for as by giving a more equal voltage match you get more usable volume range.

What is your useable volume range?

 

[Anonymous]

Hi idc, sorry but i,m just nipping out to get a chinese, will continue shortly.

 

[idc]

See you tomorrow then, as it is nearly time to log out and put a short person to bed!

 

[bretty]

Tarquinh:Bretty, I don't disagree, especially on budget amps, but whether your amp has a sweetspot or not the attenuator isn't going to do anything with it, except reduce the volume overall.

Sorry, Tarquinh, I misunderstood your post.

I feel some of the confusion, that some are experiencing, may have come from my first post.

So, without the waxing-lyrical content of my first post, here's the bare bomes of it:

Yes, Tarquinh, you're absolutely right. All that an attenuator does is reduce the volume by 10db. They add or subtract nothing to / from the sound. Because of this reduction in volume, the volume can be turned up more, to the amps optimal performance level. If you can get your amp up to, say, 10 o'clock whilst still at a listenable volume, you have no need for attenuators.

Once again, to all, sorry if I caused any confusion here.

 

[Anonymous]

idc:See you tomorrow then, as it is nearly time to log out and put a short person to bed!

All technical specs can be found at..... http://www.precide.ch/de/sugden/sugden.htm

First three at the top.. bijou Headmaster Ampmaster CD Master

 

[Sizzers]

bretty:Sizzers:matengawhat:
they reduce the volume level of the line level input they are connected too

for example have you ever noticed that your cd player is far louder than say your tuner or record player whilst switching inputs - this is cause they each have a different volume level if you place in attenuators on the cdp out it will reduce the volume on that channel input

if you place between pre amp and power amp reduces level on all inputs

Thanks. So do they generally improve sound quality or is that dependent on the kit?

It depends. If you can already hit that 'sweet spot' on the volume control, without it being too loud, then the attenuators won't actually do anything, apart from make the system 10 decibels quieter (although Rothwell do claim that using them reduces the signal to noise ratio). However, if your system is like mine, the excess gain coming from the CDP means that the amps volume is so low that it's not running to it's full potential. In this case, the attenuators 'lift the veil' from the music, to use the cliche, by letting you turn the volume up til it hits it's optimum level, without being too loud.

Well I think you explained it rather well (as above), which is what prompted me to investigate them further.

I was concerned how they would operate with a digital volume control, particularly with the large jumps after volume setting number 10 on my Denon, but they are working just fine as I mentioned earlier. Can happily listen at number 13 now with everything more opened up, whereas before I was risking my life with the neighbours at number 9! If circumstances dictate that you have to listen at relatively low volumes then IMO they are most definitely worth looking in to. More than chuffed!

 

[bretty]

Sizzers:bretty:Sizzers:matengawhat:
they reduce the volume level of the line level input they are connected too

for example have you ever noticed that your cd player is far louder than say your tuner or record player whilst switching inputs - this is cause they each have a different volume level if you place in attenuators on the cdp out it will reduce the volume on that channel input

if you place between pre amp and power amp reduces level on all inputs

Thanks. So do they generally improve sound quality or is that dependent on the kit?

It depends. If you can already hit that 'sweet spot' on the volume control, without it being too loud, then the attenuators won't actually do anything, apart from make the system 10 decibels quieter (although Rothwell do claim that using them reduces the signal to noise ratio). However, if your system is like mine, the excess gain coming from the CDP means that the amps volume is so low that it's not running to it's full potential. In this case, the attenuators 'lift the veil' from the music, to use the cliche, by letting you turn the volume up til it hits it's optimum level, without being too loud.

Well I think you explained it rather well (as above), which is what prompted me to investigate them further.I was concerned how they would operate with a digital volume control, particularly with the large jumps after volume setting number 10 on my Denon, but they are working just fine as I mentioned earlier. Can happily listen at number 13 now with everything more opened up, whereas before I was risking my life with the neighbours at number 9! If circumstances dictate that you have to listen at relatively low volumes then IMO they are most definitely worth looking in to. More than chuffed!

Cheers, mate. I'm glad they're working out for you.

 

[Anonymous]

idc:
Johnnyjazz, according to the Sugden specs for their Masterclass series (I dont think they make your model any more) the CDP output is 1.95 volts, but the power amps need 1 volt for maximum output and the integrated amp only uses 125mV.

http://www.sugdenaudio.com/pdf/masterclass_specifications.pdf

As Tarquinh said, that is not necessarily a problem, but it is the issue attenuators are designed for as by giving a more equal voltage match you get more usable volume range.

What is your useable volume range?

Johnnyjazz, you have zero to worry about, Sugden make fine equipment. Buy an attenuator if you wish, but the only impact will be to reduce the volume output from the amp and increase its electrical consumption. It will have no effect on sound quality whatsoever.

idc, how are you on Sugden amplifier and CD design? I know little about their designs myself, but something tells me they know what they're doing. Also, how do you define 'usable volume range'?

 

[bretty]

johnnyjazz:This is a very good thread, and something i know nothing about guys. My question is because my cd, pre-amp and power amp are all made by the same company and can be bought as a complete system or as seperates, do you think i would benefit from buying attenuators.

Hi Johnny,

If all your kit is the same brand, it's probable that they will all be matched for gain, so attenuators would be of no use. However, if they are from different product ranges within the brand, there might be a need for the att's.

Really, the easiest way to know is whether you can turn your system up to 10 o'clock without it being to loud.

Also, i'm sorry to Tarq, but he's been misinformed about the use of these things. Distortion has nothing to do with whether you need (or want) to use these products.

 

[Anonymous]

bretty:
johnnyjazz:This is a very good thread, and something i know nothing about guys. My question is because my cd, pre-amp and power amp are all made by the same company and can be bought as a complete system or as seperates, do you think i would benefit from buying attenuators.

Hi Johnny,

If all your kit is the same brand, it's probable that they will all be matched for gain, so attenuators would be of no use. However, if they are from different product ranges within the brand, there might be a need for the att's.

Really, the easiest way to know is whether you can turn your system up to 10 o'clock without it being to loud.

Also, i'm sorry to Tarq, but he's been misinformed about the use of these things. Distortion has nothing to do with whether you need (or want) to use these products.
Bretty, you'd be wrong there, it's the best rule of thumb. Have a look at the TNT site for a good explanation of what attenuators do and in what circumstances they may apply.

 

[matengawhat]

tarquinh you are missing the point a little - you are right that they are designed to be used if your ouput is over loading the input of your pre amp and causing distortion

however they add value in other ways - for example i have a musicaly fidelity pre amp and using the volume control on the remote to change the volume one button push went from quiet to too loud making the remote useless - by dropping in the attenuators i can now press the volume button about 5 times - so by using them i now have 5 more incremental steps of volume and therefore far better control of the volume level making the remote a usable device

for me it was nothing to do with distortion but more control - my volume can not travel to about 12 before things get to loud, i think they are great have solved my issues - my cdp is also mf so should be matched

 

[Big Chris]

I found that the sound opens up with use. When I first put them on, the detail improved but it robbed the pace and energy. After a few days the majority of it returned.

Using them for about a year now. I like having more control of the volume.

 

[Anonymous]

I had the Rothwell attenuators for about three months. When I first put them on I was happy with the results and the extra travel on the volume pot. Then I took them off to see what would happen. I found that the treble opened up and the overall sound was less flattened. I sold them for 2.5 times what I paid for them shortly after this realisation. In my set up they robbed the presence from the treble.

 

[idc]

Tarquinh:idc:

Johnnyjazz, according to the Sugden specs for their Masterclass series (I dont think they make your model any more) the CDP output is 1.95 volts, but the power amps need 1 volt for maximum output and the integrated amp only uses 125mV.

http://www.sugdenaudio.com/pdf/masterclass_specifications.pdf

As Tarquinh said, that is not necessarily a problem, but it is the issue attenuators are designed for as by giving a more equal voltage match you get more usable volume range.

What is your useable volume range?

Johnnyjazz, you have zero to worry about, Sugden make fine equipment. Buy an attenuator if you wish, but the only impact will be to reduce the volume output from the amp and increase its electrical consumption. It will have no effect on sound quality whatsoever.

idc, how are you on Sugden amplifier and CD design? I know little about their designs myself, but something tells me they know what they're doing. Also, how do you define 'usable volume range'?

I agree that Johnnyjazz has nothing to worry about. Sugden do know what they are doing, but if you go through various brands you will find the voltage out of their CDPs is greater than the voltage needed by the amp. I have no idea why that is, but it has created a market for attenuation.

I looked up Sugdens specs and went by the Russ Andrews guide (which I lloked for but cannot find anymore) that you decide on the level of attenuation by the voltage output of the CDP and the input of the amp. RA argues it is best to be the same and by that you get a more usable volume range. By usable volume range I mean from the point where it is not so quite as to rob the sound of detail and dynamics to the point where it is so loud people would complain/there is clipping/risk of damage to your ears.

 

[Anonymous]

Im with Igglebert on this, tried them, and when I took them off, found the sound was much more open, and it flowed much better too.

Try them, and if you don't like them, stick them on fleabay. Best to buy them off there as well.

You do know that it is just a resistor in a housing, if my memory serves me correctly.

 

[idc]

My understanding is that the attenuator reduces resistence, thereby reducing the voltage.

 

[Sizzers]

bretty:
johnnyjazz:This is a very good thread, and something i know nothing about guys. My question is because my cd, pre-amp and power amp are all made by the same company and can be bought as a complete system or as seperates, do you think i would benefit from buying attenuators.

Hi Johnny,

If all your kit is the same brand, it's probable that they will all be matched for gain, so attenuators would be of no use. However, if they are from different product ranges within the brand, there might be a need for the att's.

Really, the easiest way to know is whether you can turn your system up to 10 o'clock without it being to loud.

Also, i'm sorry to Tarq, but he's been misinformed about the use of these things. Distortion has nothing to do with whether you need (or want) to use these products.

Well apparently not.

I will be replacing the amp (hopefully!) not before too long, and high on the list will be the Marantz PM6003. This as an input sensitivity of 200mV, yet my CD6003 has an output of 2.35V. Going by the Russ Andrews guide that needs almost 16db of attenuation, which to my inexperience seems an awful lot!

Seems rather strange to me that as they're marketed as a pair their seems to be such a mismatch.

 

[Anonymous]

Yes, idc, thought your info might have come from that website!

Put bluntly only in rare cases do you need attenuators and certainly nowhere near as much as the RA website seems to indicate. I won't comment further other than to suggest his website is a poor source for information on anything technical.

The issue of mostly budget amps having unusable volume controls at low volumes, and my NAD suffered from this, is caused mostly by using cheap pots. The attenuator does work, in the sense it allows greater control at lower levels, but it also cuts down output at all levels. It's a band-aid solution.

I've heard claims that attenuators make the amps work harder thus producing better sound. This is little more than a myth. The amp may work harder but it's just raising the level of your electricity bill, that's all. The attenuator should be absolutely neutral and have zero impact on the quality of the sound, full stop.

Finally, if you want to hear the affect of badly matched output/inputs on a massive scale it's unfortunately all too easy to achieve but don't even think of doing it deliberately as it may have calamitous consequences on the rest of your system. Anyone who has accidentally connected a line output to a phono input will know what I mean.

As a footnote my amp has an attenuator which I accidentally switched in the other day. Initially thought the problem was with a quieter than normal CD - it was one I hadn't played for a while - so I turned the volume up to what would normally be alarming levels. The amp sounded fine as it always does, but it was only when I put on a CD I knew well that I realised what the problem was and turned off the attenuation. The amp sounded just as it did before, only louder. It was a decent, if inadvertent, blind test all the same.

 

[matthewpiano]

Sizzers - I really don't think you need to worry about the so-called mismatch between the CD6003 and PM6003. The pair work very well together and they are both excellent components.