Rothwell attenuators

[Thompsonuxb]

Hmmm....Spockfish, glad you're happy.

Again I have to say I'm a bit baffled by this action ref attenuaters.

Imo the manufacturers have not got it wrong.

With reference to digital devices most have volume controls. My phone, lap top and tablet has one which controls the output of the device.

If you're connected to your amp via the earphone jack.

With CD players most have volume control too.

Now I own CDs which are eq'd low - Michael Jackson's Off the wall, Earth,Wind and Fire's Let's Grove Tonight, Teddy Pendagrass Love TKO are examples.

Now these albums I turn up -its one area the ra-1520 was good at actually - thing is if attenuated has you guys have done I would not be able to enjoy these albums at the level I'm use to. I'd run out of volume so to speak.

I don't see the point of the spend when you can achieve the same result from the volume control on your digital devices.

Even using a TT most LP's are eq'd pretty low - with a pretty high noise floor the higher the volume the more noticeable. The old 12inch singles being an improvement.

But I suppose it horses for courses.....right?

 

[Deleted member 108165]

I don't see the point of the spend when you can achieve the same result from the volume control on your digital devices.

I do not have output control on any of my digital sources: cd player or network player. Sure I have a volume control for the headphone-out jack but this does not control the output sockets on the rear of the cdp or np.

 

[davedotco]

Very few CD players and dacs have variable outputs, it's just not the norm.

The whole concept of gain matching a system so that each 'stage' is working in optimumun conditions passes straight past Thompsom, who has is own, often erroneous, ideas of how things work.

Even my current, very basic, desktop setup has the gain optimised, this was the case long before any of the recent threads, all my experience, both pro and hi-fi, tells me that this is simply to correct way to do things.

We have seen in recent threads that manufacturers will do anything to gain an advantage, making their products sound just the tiniest bit louder is the name of the game and the game is to sell more product. If the customer finds the product awkward or difficult to use, fall back on the old Naim aproach, a totally unsubstantiated 'it sounds better that way'.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Ok....

My marantz CD63 has volume control that controls output via the remote.

My NAD cc660 does not - but the manual level when recording controls the output level.

I connect my other devices to the player using it has a pass through/gain using its dac into the amp

My phone, lap top and tablet connect via 3mm Jack to phono into the player and the volume is controlled to the earphone jack or if set to max the CD player.

So how do you connect your network player?

Is it via DAC - not familiar with them

I don't see the point of the spend when you can achieve the same result from the volume control on your digital devices.

I do not have volume, (output), control on any of my digital sources: cd player or network player. Sure I have a volume control for the headphone-out jack but this does not control the output sockets on the rear of the cdp or np. 

 

[Thompsonuxb]

The levels you'll go to discredit me Dave I swear....

Check your equipment after a little thought and investigation as is usually the way you'll see I'm right.

Very few CD players and dacs have variable outputs, it's just not the norm.

The whole concept of gain matching a system so that each 'stage' is working in optimumun conditions passes straight past Thompsom, who has is own, often erroneous, ideas of how things work.

Even my current, very basic, desktop setup has the gain optimised, this was the case long before any of the recent threads, all my experience, both pro and hi-fi, tells me that this is simply to correct way to do things.

We have seen in recent threads that manufacturers will do anything to gain an advantage, making their products sound just the tiniest bit louder is the name of the game and the game is to sell more product. If the customer finds the product awkward or difficult to use, fall back on the old Naim aproach, a totally unsubstantiated 'it sounds better that way'.

 

[BigH]

Ok....

My marantz CD63 has volume control that controls output via the remote.

My NAD cc660 does not - but the manual level when recording controls the output level.

I connect my other devices to the player using it has a pass through/gain using its dac into the amp

My phone, lap top and tablet connect via 3mm Jack to phono into the player and the volume is controlled to the earphone jack or if set to max the CD player.

So how do you connect your network player?

Is it via DAC - not familiar with them

I don't see the point of the spend when you can achieve the same result from the volume control on your digital devices.

I do not have volume, (output), control on any of my digital sources: cd player or network player. Sure I have a volume control for the headphone-out jack but this does not control the output sockets on the rear of the cdp or np.

Yes the 63 has volume control however this only works if you use analogue out not if you use an external dac for instance.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

I use analog out....

I only use it now to record copy protected CD's into the NAD.

And I'm sure it works via the coax out. I'll check.

I'm not familiar with external DACs but thought they had analog in.

I know via HDMI from my laptop a hp-Pavillion into my ra-1020 the volume into the amp is controllable.

Same with my phone and tablet into the NAD- am I the only one with mixers on my digital kit?

Ok....

My marantz CD63 has volume control that controls output via the remote.

My NAD cc660 does not - but the manual level when recording controls the output level.

I connect my other devices to the player using it has a pass through/gain using its dac into the amp

My phone, lap top and tablet connect via 3mm Jack to phono into the player and the volume is controlled to the earphone jack or if set to max the CD player.

So how do you connect your network player?

Is it via DAC - not familiar with them

I don't see the point of the spend when you can achieve the same result from the volume control on your digital devices.

I do not have volume, (output), control on any of my digital sources: cd player or network player. Sure I have a volume control for the headphone-out jack but this does not control the output sockets on the rear of the cdp or np.?

?

Yes the 63 has volume control however this only works if you use analogue out not if you use an external dac for instance. 

 

[Vladimir]

I went to the WHF reviews section and under CD players I used a filter to choose only the 5 star rated ones. I checked every one of them up to the £2000 range and these are the ones that have no volume control on the CDP gain. Yes, I downloaded the manuals from the official websites.

Pioneer PD-D6-J

NAD C 515BEE

NAD C 545BEE

Marantz CD6004

Marantz CD6005

Cambridge Audio Azur 351C

Rega Apollo-R

Cyrus CD6 SE2

Cyrus CD 6 SE

Cyrus CDi

Arcam DiVA CD192

Naim CD5i (Mk II)

Cyrus CD 8 SE2

Cyrus CD 8 SE

Roksan Caspian M2 CD

Naim CD5 XS

Actually every single one on the list has no volume control. There is a volume control on the remote but it controls the matching integrated amplifier. *wink*

Why have manufacturers stopped making CD players with volume control like it was the standard 10 years ago, yet they keep selling them as standalone units? I think they are intentionally trying to confuse Thompson. *dirol*

Awaiting for the next rationalisation that explains the good natured intent of our beloved brands.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Lol and the extreme levels some will go...

Bear with me a moment just gonna go lace up my special kung fu kicking boots....

I admit am not familiar with modern players so fair play.

I know the kit I have the output volume is adjustable.

You may even find from that list Vlad the earphone output is connected to the analog output volume like the CD 63.

Doubt it was in the reviews at the time when I bought it - I found out about it myself by accident.

Yes I understand some digital kit will have fixed level outputs - my portable CDplayer Sony Discman D-E3835 (I still remember it's name and it still works) has one connected to my Pioneer sk-757l in the bedroom. Not controllable.

But again I could be wrong - but has stated above my modern devices are controllable.

I mean what's up with you guys..... Is it because I'm a woman?

I went to the WHF reviews section and under CD players I used a filter to choose only the 5 star rated ones. I checked every one of them up to the £2000 range and these are the ones that have no volume control on the CDP gain. Yes, I downloaded the manuals from the official websites.

Pioneer PD-D6-J

NAD C 515BEE

NAD C 545BEE

Marantz CD6004

Marantz CD6005

Cambridge Audio Azur 351C

Rega Apollo-R

Cyrus CD6 SE2

Cyrus CD 6 SE

Cyrus CDi

Arcam DiVA CD192

Naim CD5i (Mk II)

Cyrus CD 8 SE2

Cyrus CD 8 SE

Roksan Caspian M2 CD

Naim CD5 XS

Actually every single one on the list has no volume control. There is a volume control on the remote but it controls the matching integrated amplifier. *wink*?

Why have manufacturers stopped making CD players with volume control like it was the standards 10 years ago, yet they keep selling them as standalone units? I think they are intentionally trying to confuse Thompson. *dirol*

Awaiting for the next rationalisation that explains the good natured intent of our beloved brands.

 

[Vladimir]

Thompson, I don't mind that you are a married lesbian. I enjoy giving everyone a jolly good spank.

BTW my Denon DCD-1500mkII is from 1987 and has even separate analogue out for fixed and variable levels.

 

[nopiano]

Vlad, I'm not sure it's for the CDP makers to provide a variable output, and even if they did I think many of us would suspect it was an unnecessary step that might degrade the sound. It is surely for the amp makers to know what has been the published facts for three decades, that players have a 2 volt output.

My argument is soon lost however, as most make amps too, so they deserve your criticism!

 

[Thompsonuxb]

There you go....

So the bottom line is if your digital source has an equaliser/mixer on it with a master volume control - get yourself a £6.99 mini-jack to phono lead and plug it into your dacs analog inputs and save yourselves a few bob.

It may be worth checking your cdplayers too.

Erounious ideas my eye.....

Thompson, I don't mind that you are a married lesbian. I enjoy giving everyone a jolly good spank.

BTW my Denon DCD-1500mkII is from 1987 and has even separate analogue out for fixed and variable levels.

 

[davedotco]

All the Cd players I have ever owned have a variable output, but then I have only really ever owned one and it has both analogue and digital volume controls, designed to be used together.

That said, most hi-fi CD players and dacs have fixed outputs, that is just the way it is and the way it has always been since the advent of digital audio.

Also most computers do not have variable outputs, digital or analog. The software player (iTunes, J River etc) provide this control and will almost certainly mess with the 'holy grail' of computer audio enthusiasts, bit perfect output.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

You see Nopiano you kind of hit the nail on the head.

Many feel if it's not on 11 its not loud. I mean if one is happy with their sweet point on their amp be it at 9o'clock moving it to 2o'clock will not improve it.

Unless you lack control and the wider sweep makes sense - what's the point?

Vlad, I'm not sure it's for the CDP makers to provide a variable output, and even if they did I think many of us would suspect it was an unnecessary step that might degrade the sound.  It is surely for the amp makers to know what has been the published facts for three decades, that players have a 2 volt output.?

My argument is soon lost however, as most make amps too, so they deserve your criticism!

 

[BigH]

I'm not familiar with external DACs but thought they had analog in.

Hmmm, what does a DAC do?

 

[Thompsonuxb]

You need to clarify your statement Dave, that's one big contradiction.

Like I said the output on my digital devices are controllable.

All the Cd players I have ever owned have a variable output, but then I have only really ever owned one and it has both analogue and digital volume controls, designed to be used together.

That said, most hi-fi CD players and dacs have fixed outputs, that is just the way it is and the way it has always been since the advent of digital audio.

Also most computers do not have variable outputs, digital or analog. The software player (iTunes, J River etc) provide this control and will almost certainly mess with the 'holy grail' of computer audio enthusiasts, bit perfect output.

 

 

[Thompsonuxb]

I'm not familiar with stand alone DACs never used one or researched them. I would have thought they convert both ways - if I designed one it would.... ;-)

I'm not familiar with external DACs but thought they had analog in.

Hmmm, what does a DAC do?

 

[Vladimir]

Lol and the extreme levels some will go...

Bear with me a moment just gonna go lace up my special kung fu kicking boots....

I admit am not familiar with modern players so fair play.

I know the kit I have the output volume is adjustable.

You may even find from that list Vlad the earphone output is connected to the analog output volume like the CD 63.

Doubt it was in the reviews at the time when I bought it - I found out about it myself by accident.

Yes I understand some digital kit will have fixed level outputs - my portable CDplayer Sony Discman D-E3835 (I still remember it's name and it still works) has one connected to my Pioneer sk-757l in the bedroom. Not controllable.

But again I could be wrong - but has stated above my modern devices are controllable.

I mean what's up with you guys..... Is it because I'm a woman?

I went to the WHF reviews section and under CD players I used a filter to choose only the 5 star rated ones. I checked every one of them up to the £2000 range and these are the ones that have no volume control on the CDP gain. Yes, I downloaded the manuals from the official websites.

Pioneer PD-D6-J

NAD C 515BEE

NAD C 545BEE

Marantz CD6004

Marantz CD6005

Cambridge Audio Azur 351C

Rega Apollo-R

Cyrus CD6 SE2

Cyrus CD 6 SE

Cyrus CDi

Arcam DiVA CD192

Naim CD5i (Mk II)

Cyrus CD 8 SE2

Cyrus CD 8 SE

Roksan Caspian M2 CD

Naim CD5 XS

Actually every single one on the list has no volume control. There is a volume control on the remote but it controls the matching integrated amplifier. *wink*

Why have manufacturers stopped making CD players with volume control like it was the standards 10 years ago, yet they keep selling them as standalone units? I think they are intentionally trying to confuse Thompson. *dirol*

Awaiting for the next rationalisation that explains the good natured intent of our beloved brands.

The only CDP on that list with headphone output is the Marantz. And your proposed solution is using the headphone output with a Y cable? Not very elegant or widespread, is it?

No offense but you don't seem to be familiar with a lot of basic things, yet such an opinionated chap you are. *biggrin*

 

[Vladimir]

I'm not familiar with stand alone DACs never used one or researched them. I would have thought they convert both ways - if I designed one it would.... ;-)

I'm not familiar with external DACs but thought they had analog in.

Hmmm, what does a DAC do?

Thats called an audio interface or a sound card.

 

[BigH]

I'm not familiar with stand alone DACs never used one or researched them. I would have thought they convert both ways - if I designed one it would.... ;-)

I'm not familiar with external DACs but thought they had analog in.

Hmmm, what does a DAC do?

Im not talking about standalone DACs Im talking about all of them. Well I maybe be wrong but I thought they converted digital into analogue. an ADC will convert analgue into digital.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

You mean it's been done already????

Lol...oh man, then I take it that'll be the next big thing from the big boys for hifi.

Suprised DACs just go one way.

Only ever concerned with the built in types like the ones in my vs player and amp.

Still, maybe I'm being a little conceited but is there a little back peddling going on in this thread?

I'm not familiar with stand alone DACs never used one or researched them. I would have thought they convert both ways - if I designed one it would.... ;-)

I'm not familiar with external DACs but thought they had analog in.

Hmmm, what does a DAC do?

Thats called an audio interface or a sound card.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

I know what they do BigH .....

I'm not familiar with stand alone DACs never used one or researched them. I would have thought they convert both ways - if I designed one it would.... ;-)

I'm not familiar with external DACs but thought they had analog in.

Hmmm, what does a DAC do?

Im not talking about standalone DACs Im talking about all of them. Well I maybe be wrong but I thought they converted digital into analogue. an ADC will convert analgue into digital.

 

[Vladimir]

Oh you got us now!

 

[BigH]

You mean it's been done already????

Lol...oh man, then I take it that'll be the next big thing from the big boys for hifi.

Suprised DACs just go one way.

Only ever concerned with the built in types like the ones in my vs player and amp.

Still, maybe I'm being a little conceited but is there a little back peddling going on in this thread?

I'm not familiar with stand alone DACs never used one or researched them. I would have thought they convert both ways - if I designed one it would.... ;-)

I'm not familiar with external DACs but thought they had analog in.

Hmmm, what does a DAC do?

Thats called an audio interface or a sound card.

But what is the point of converting analogue to digital apart from probably vinyl to stream or record?

 

[Vladimir]

Vlad, I'm not sure it's for the CDP makers to provide a variable output, and even if they did I think many of us would suspect it was an unnecessary step that might degrade the sound. It is surely for the amp makers to know what has been the published facts for three decades, that players have a 2 volt output.

My argument is soon lost however, as most make amps too, so they deserve your criticism!

We simply entertain the CDP lack of volume control theme for Thompson's sake (kinda fun). The basic premise remains that amplifiers are too sensitive on their inputs for the standards of digital audio.