Rothwell attenuators

[spockfish]

Hi,

In light of recent discussion about volume control, excessive gain etc. I've ordered myself a pair of Rothwell attuenuators. Lack of proper volume control (the very limited range) on my Brio-R and reading the topic started by Vladimir made it clear to me what the real problem is (too much gain).

And for 50 euros I'm willing to do an experiment. I'll report my findings as soon as I've got them (installed).

Regards,

 

[bluedroog]

I used a pair of attenuators between my preamp and power amp when I had excessive gain, it really helped me get more give in the volume pot and reduced speaker noise. Ultimately I had the gain in my preamp reduced which is preferable from a technical point of view as attenuators just add another resistor because one up stream isn't appropriate for the partnering gear.

if it isn't too late to cancel you Rothwell order I'd recommend getting ones called Golden Jacks instead (think they have an ebay shop) as many report them as equal or even better and they are about half the price of rip off Rothwells, also Iain the fella who makes runs it is one of the single most helpful people I've dealt with in this hobby.

 

[Vladimir]

Regardless which ones you buy, they should all do their job as simple attenuators. Please report back how the effects suit you after a week of use and especially the moment you take them off to revert back to original state.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Ok - make a note of the level/how loud you currently listen at. I'm interested to see if you crank the level up to equal it once attenuated or if you play it lower than normal.

My suspicion is if the amp peaks at 9o'clock say, after which noise floor is increased, distortion is introduced - you will still introduce such issues even though your input is reduced.

So while you will have a longer volume sweep it may highlight other issues.

Not familiar with your set - but will look forward to your findings.

 

[Vladimir]

People having more usable volume area, less channel imbalance, possibly eliminating preamp clipping and realistic power expectations from their amplifiers, all somehow bothers you even on a Sunday. *lol*

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Bothers me??

No, but I have to confess I see it has a waste of money.

I know I don't adjust my volume often enough to NEED a wider sweep on my amp - but to be honest it's good - but still if a good clean undistorted sound can be achieved what improvement can be made.....

Will look forward to the update.

People having more usable volume area, less channel imbalance, possibly eliminating preamp clipping and realistic power expectations from their amplifiers, all somehow bothers you even on a Sunday. *lol*

 

[Vladimir]

Your decisiveness to serve mankind with such a noble goal simply bedazzles me and I'm sure everyone else.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Not sure what that means - another cryptic response Vlad.

Last time out you quoted from a book for some reason. Made no sense to me.

Maybe you could clarify what you're on about for the sake of those 'everyone else'......

Your decisiveness to serve mankind with such a noble goal simply bedazzles me and I'm sure everyone else.

 

[Deleted member 108165]

Ok - make a note of the level/how loud you currently listen at. I'm interested to see if you crank the level up to equal it once attenuated or if you play it lower than normal.

My suspicion is if the amp peaks at 9o'clock say, after which noise floor is increased, distortion is introduced - you will still introduce such issues even though your input is reduced.

So while you will have a longer volume sweep it may highlight other issues.

Not familiar with your set - but will look forward to your findings.

Fitted Rothwell's to my amp and network player a couple of weeks ago and I must say that I'm very pleased with them and as such will not be removing them anytime soon. They have given me an additional volume sweep of approx 2 hours at 65dB peak, measured with a cheap spl meter, and I have noticed absolutely no difference in SQ whatsoever. Before fitting the attenuators my "normal" listening level was around 65dB peak, if anything I am listening at slightly higher volumes than before.

If the neighbours go out tomorrow I'll push it a little higher to see if your suspicions are founded, or not, as the case may be.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Just thinking out loud Doug, but two hrs on the volume dial - but still more or less listen at the same level and no discerning difference in sq.

Fascinating.....

Look forward to your update. Don't forget to take them off for comparison sake.

Ok - make a note of the level/how loud you currently listen at. I'm interested to see if you crank the level up to equal it once attenuated or if you play it lower than normal.

My suspicion is if the amp peaks at 9o'clock say, after which noise floor is increased, distortion is introduced - you will still introduce such issues even though your input is reduced.

So while you will have a longer volume sweep it may highlight other issues.

Not familiar with your set - but will look forward to your findings.

Fitted Rothwell's to my amp and network player a couple of weeks ago and I must say that I'm very pleased with them and as such will not be removing them anytime soon. They have given me an additional volume sweep of approx 2 hours at 65dB peak, measured with a cheap spl meter, and I have noticed absolutely no difference in SQ whatsoever. Before fitting the attenuators my "normal" listening level was around 65dB peak, if anything I am listening at slightly higher volumes than before.

If the neighbours go out tomorrow I'll push it a little higher to see if your suspicions are founded, or not, as the case may be. 

 

[Jota180]

I was reading a thread on the Harbeth User Group's forum and the point was made that the specification in CD's Red Book that they output up to 2.1V was to ensure CD's had the wide dynamic range that they do.

I asked there if using attenuators to reduce this volatge would affect the dynamic range but haven't really had a convincing reply.

Anyone know the answer?

Edit...

"Similarly, the use of attenuators in a test system with a spectrum analyzer, for example, willaffect the test-system dynamic range. Since the dynamic range is essentially the difference between the highest-level signal and the minimum discernible signal, the dynamic range will decrease by an amount equal to the total attenuation added."

http://217.34.103.131/app/AN70-001.pdf

The best solution to this would appear to be buying the correct amplifier.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

It shouldn't affect the perceived dynamic range, just the volume i.e you'll have to turn your amp up more to achieve your 'normal' listening level.

Most CD players (digital devices)have a volume control on them - my old Marantz cd63 has one coupled to the earphone output. But it also controls the output of the player.

Its always set to max unless listening through my phones which I rarely did

I was reading a thread on the Harbeth User Group's forum and the point was made that the specification in CD's Red Book that they output up to 2.1V was to ensure CD's had the wide dynamic range that they do.

I asked there if using attenuators to reduce this volatge would affect the dynamic range but haven't really had a convincing reply.

Anyone know the answer?

 

[Vladimir]

I was reading a thread on the Harbeth User Group's forum and the point was made that the specification in CD's Red Book that they output up to 2.1V was to ensure CD's had the wide dynamic range that they do.

I asked there if using attenuators to reduce this volatge would affect the dynamic range but haven't really had a convincing reply.

Anyone know the answer?

Edit...

"Similarly, the use of attenuators in a test system with a spectrum analyzer, for example, willaffect the test-system dynamic range. Since the dynamic range is essentially the difference between the highest-level signal and the minimum discernible signal, the dynamic range will decrease by an amount equal to the total attenuation added."

http://217.34.103.131/app/AN70-001.pdf

The best solution to this would appear to be buying the correct amplifier.

By adding an inline attenuator we are decreasing the amplifier input sensitivity, not reducing CDP output. The CDP remains sending its 2.1Vrms and its dynamic range is not affected by inline attenuators and trimmers.

Lets map out the gain stages roughly with and without added attenuators.

a) CDP outputs 2V for a signal which enters the preamp where gain goes up to 10V (x5) and next is sent to the volume knob set at maximum and next to the power amp where gain goes up to 40V (x4). The end result is without clipping.

Lets double the amplifier input sensitivity to sell more amplifiers.

b) CDP outputs 2V for a signal which enters the preamp where gain goes up to 20V (x5 x2) and next is sent to the volume knob set at maximum and next to the power amp where gain goes up to 80V (x4). The end result is power amp clipping after passing 40V. To prevent clipping, user moves the volume knob back to reduce 50% from the preamp's 20V and return ideal state of 10V sent to the power amp.

Let's half the input signal (reduce amplifier input sensitivity) with an attenuator.

c) CDP outputs 2V entering an input attenuator (or trimmer), which reduces it at 1V, passing it on to the preamp, where gain goes up to 10V (x5 x2 /2) and next is sent to the volume knob set at maximum and next to the power amp where gain goes up to 40V (x4). The end result is without clipping.

 

[Deleted member 108165]

Just thinking out loud Doug, but two hrs on the volume dial - but still more or less listen at the same level and no discerning difference in sq.

Fascinating.....

Look forward to your update. Don't forget to take them off for comparison sake.

Ok - make a note of the level/how loud you currently listen at. I'm interested to see if you crank the level up to equal it once attenuated or if you play it lower than normal.

My suspicion is if the amp peaks at 9o'clock say, after which noise floor is increased, distortion is introduced - you will still introduce such issues even though your input is reduced.

So while you will have a longer volume sweep it may highlight other issues.

Not familiar with your set - but will look forward to your findings.

Fitted Rothwell's to my amp and network player a couple of weeks ago and I must say that I'm very pleased with them and as such will not be removing them anytime soon. They have given me an additional volume sweep of approx 2 hours at 65dB peak, measured with a cheap spl meter, and I have noticed absolutely no difference in SQ whatsoever. Before fitting the attenuators my "normal" listening level was around 65dB peak, if anything I am listening at slightly higher volumes than before.

If the neighbours go out tomorrow I'll push it a little higher to see if your suspicions are founded, or not, as the case may be.

Neighbours don't appear to be going out today

. Regarding the just +2 hours increase in volume control movement, this is purely a personal thing. Without attenuators fitted my amp doesn't output anything at 7am position and by 9am I consider it too loud for my neighbours; at least with the attenuators fitted I can rescue a wider sweep on the dial from 7-11am. I have also taken delivery of the adjustable attenuators, (-10, -15, -20dB), and may give them a spin at some stage, the access to the rear of my amp is the only thing stopping me at the moment.

 

[Vladimir]

Manufacturer plays with the consumers perception and expectation, which holds on to the logic that an amplifier will not begin clipping even if pushed at 100% on the volume knob. Making an amplifier with above standard input sensitivity makes it enter clipping very early, giving the consumer a false perception of more power available even after the point of clipping. This usually results people buying less powerfull amplifiers than their speakers demand because they were tricked in their audition at the hi-fi showroom.

Here enters the consumer psychology of "if 60W go as loud as 600W on the volume knob, those 60W must be qualitatively better" and cosumer begins seeking sonic differences to pinpoint the quality he is ready to pay for. It's the same scam with organic food in the food industry. Consequently people listen amplifiers at loud levels entering clipping because our hearing is not very discernable with small amounts of distortion, it actually apreciates it as added richness and sonic quality. Only when you push even further the richness turns into nasty head bitting harshness and muddy flabby bass. Most will simply not go that far and enjoy that borderline audible amplifier clipping.

The audible border line between amplifier normal operation and clipping is not hair thin. It's thick like a 100 years old oak tree. A significant amount of the volume knob turn will be distortion that may be appealing to the listener and never be aware it is present. Plenty of listening tests have proven this, among which some easily available for everyone to try for themselves on the "How loud vs how far..." thread here or over at Harbeth forums. I posted two audio files, one with and one without small amount of clipping distortion and to me at least the distorted sound is better.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

How inconsiderate, some people I swear!

Just thinking out loud Doug, but two hrs on the volume dial - but still more or less listen at the same level and no discerning difference in sq.

Fascinating.....

Look forward to your update. Don't forget to take them off for comparison sake.

Ok - make a note of the level/how loud you currently listen at. I'm interested to see if you crank the level up to equal it once attenuated or if you play it lower than normal.

My suspicion is if the amp peaks at 9o'clock say, after which noise floor is increased, distortion is introduced - you will still introduce such issues even though your input is reduced.

So while you will have a longer volume sweep it may highlight other issues.

Not familiar with your set - but will look forward to your findings.

Fitted Rothwell's to my amp and network player a couple of weeks ago and I must say that I'm very pleased with them and as such will not be removing them anytime soon. They have given me an additional volume sweep of approx 2 hours at 65dB peak, measured with a cheap spl meter, and I have noticed absolutely no difference in SQ whatsoever. Before fitting the attenuators my "normal" listening level was around 65dB peak, if anything I am listening at slightly higher volumes than before.

If the neighbours go out tomorrow I'll push it a little higher to see if your suspicions are founded, or not, as the case may be.?

Neighbours don't appear to be going out today . Regarding the just +2 hours increase in volume control movement, this is purely a personal thing. Without attenuators fitted my amp doesn't output anything at 7am position and by 9am I consider it too loud for my neighbours; at least with the attenuators fitted I can rescue a wider sweep on the dial from 7-11am. I have also taken delivery of the adjustable attenuators, (-10, -15, -20dB), and may give them a spin at some stage, the access to the rear of my amp is the only thing stopping me at the moment. 

 

[spockfish]

Attenuators arrived today. Installation takes about 1 minute

Had a quick listen session, both at 'default' listening levels, and also on 'earth shaking levels'. First impressions: wow. Volume level is now between 9 (for me that's 'low'), and 3, so ideal in a sense of range. No degredation of SQ what so ever. So I think this is a keeper

Vlad, again thanks for your topic from the other week. I always thought that my very limited volume range was something 'I need to live with and that's the price of having a 600 euro amp'. So not true.

The only down side is that I'm getting more annoyed by the manufacturers that they are ignoring this all because of marketing.

 

[BigH]

Attenuators arrived today. Installation takes about 1 minute

Had a quick listen session, both at 'default' listening levels, and also on 'earth shaking levels'. First impressions: wow. Volume level is now between 9 (for me that's 'low'), and 3, so ideal in a sense of range. No degredation of SQ what so ever. So I think this is a keeper

Vlad, again thanks for your topic from the other week. I always thought that my very limited volume range was something 'I need to live with and that's the price of having a 600 euro amp'. So not true.

The only down side is that I'm getting more annoyed by the manufacturers that they are ignoring this all because of marketing.

Yes Im surprised by Rega doing this. I believe Arcam are better in this respect? Creek 50A also did not seem to have this problem, it had a db volume display.

No problem on my actives, there just go up and down in small steps on remote, not sure how loud they go and never tried to go to full volume.

 

[Native_bon]

Attenuators arrived today. Installation takes about 1 minute

Had a quick listen session, both at 'default' listening levels, and also on 'earth shaking levels'. First impressions: wow. Volume level is now between 9 (for me that's 'low'), and 3, so ideal in a sense of range. No degredation of SQ what so ever. So I think this is a keeper

Vlad, again thanks for your topic from the other week. I always thought that my very limited volume range was something 'I need to live with and that's the price of having a 600 euro amp'. So not true.

The only down side is that I'm getting more annoyed by the manufacturers that they are ignoring this all because of marketing.

If I remember well, drummerman posted twice for any manufacturer to repond to this topic but so far none has come forward. Just goes to tell you alot about the HIFI WORLD.

 

[BigH]

Attenuators arrived today. Installation takes about 1 minute

Had a quick listen session, both at 'default' listening levels, and also on 'earth shaking levels'. First impressions: wow. Volume level is now between 9 (for me that's 'low'), and 3, so ideal in a sense of range. No degredation of SQ what so ever. So I think this is a keeper

Vlad, again thanks for your topic from the other week. I always thought that my very limited volume range was something 'I need to live with and that's the price of having a 600 euro amp'. So not true.

The only down side is that I'm getting more annoyed by the manufacturers that they are ignoring this all because of marketing.

If I remember well, drummerman posted twice for any manufacturer to repond to this topic but so far none has come forward. Just goes to tell you alot about the HIFI WORLD.

To be fair why would they be reading this forum? Rega somethimes posts if there is a problem.

 

[Vladimir]

Glad it works out so well. *good*

 

[Native_bon]

Attenuators arrived today. Installation takes about 1 minute

Had a quick listen session, both at 'default' listening levels, and also on 'earth shaking levels'. First impressions: wow. Volume level is now between 9 (for me that's 'low'), and 3, so ideal in a sense of range. No degredation of SQ what so ever. So I think this is a keeper

Vlad, again thanks for your topic from the other week. I always thought that my very limited volume range was something 'I need to live with and that's the price of having a 600 euro amp'. So not true.

The only down side is that I'm getting more annoyed by the manufacturers that they are ignoring this all because of marketing.

If I remember well, drummerman posted twice for any manufacturer to repond to this topic but so far none has come forward. Just goes to tell you alot about the HIFI WORLD.

To be fair why would they be reading this forum? Rega somethimes posts if there is a problem.

Why not?.. If Rega can get here in the first place you just answered your own question. So they do read from this forum...

 

[BigH]

Attenuators arrived today. Installation takes about 1 minute

Had a quick listen session, both at 'default' listening levels, and also on 'earth shaking levels'. First impressions: wow. Volume level is now between 9 (for me that's 'low'), and 3, so ideal in a sense of range. No degredation of SQ what so ever. So I think this is a keeper

Vlad, again thanks for your topic from the other week. I always thought that my very limited volume range was something 'I need to live with and that's the price of having a 600 euro amp'. So not true.

The only down side is that I'm getting more annoyed by the manufacturers that they are ignoring this all because of marketing.

If I remember well, drummerman posted twice for any manufacturer to repond to this topic but so far none has come forward. Just goes to tell you alot about the HIFI WORLD.

To be fair why would they be reading this forum? Rega somethimes posts if there is a problem.

Why not?.. If Rega can get here in the first place you just answered your own question. So they do read from this forum...

Their rep. probably has a quick browse at post titles like Rega problem or another Rega problem and then reads it. I would not expect him to read every post just in case there is something buried down about the 30th post. If you want an answer from Rega I suggest you start a new post with Rega in the title.

 

[Vladimir]

I simply brought to the forum's attention information from a renowned manufacturer (Harbeth), renowned publication (Hi-Fi World) and even a well made product solution for the problem (Rothwell). All British.

None of the input sensitivity issue is my theory or idea. If a Rega representative comes to rebuttal, it goes towards the aforementioned authoritative sources I used.

 

[Native_bon]

Attenuators arrived today. Installation takes about 1 minute

Had a quick listen session, both at 'default' listening levels, and also on 'earth shaking levels'. First impressions: wow. Volume level is now between 9 (for me that's 'low'), and 3, so ideal in a sense of range. No degredation of SQ what so ever. So I think this is a keeper

Vlad, again thanks for your topic from the other week. I always thought that my very limited volume range was something 'I need to live with and that's the price of having a 600 euro amp'. So not true.

The only down side is that I'm getting more annoyed by the manufacturers that they are ignoring this all because of marketing.

If I remember well, drummerman posted twice for any manufacturer to repond to this topic but so far none has come forward. Just goes to tell you alot about the HIFI WORLD.

To be fair why would they be reading this forum? Rega somethimes posts if there is a problem.

Why not?.. If Rega can get here in the first place you just answered your own question. So they do read from this forum...

Their rep. probably has a quick browse at post titles like Rega problem or another Rega problem and then reads it. I would not expect him to read every post just in case there is something buried down about the 30th post. If you want an answer from Rega I suggest you start a new post with Rega in the title.

I rest my case.