Rotel / B&W system - what should I change?

[Binman]

My system is a little bright for my liking, and bass is lacking, unless I crank it up, at which point the brightness becomes a problem. I mainly listen to electronic music - chemical brothers, underworld, orbital, and some bands such as Radiohead. I also use it for movies.

My system: Rotel RA-02 Amp, Rotel RCD-02 CDP, B&W 602 S3 Speakers, Squeezebox Classic

What should I change? Amp or Speakers or both? I don't really use the CDP, so I'll sell that along with the component(s) I change. With the cash I would purchase something second hand so I wouldn't need to spend any extra.

I was initially thinking about a subwoofer, but I really don't have the space for one.

 

[Anonymous]

Have you tried listening to it with different cabling as well changing the way it is placed in your room with regards to distance from the back wall? This can help to adjust the bass and tame high frequencies..

 

[Big Chris]

I'd re-think the sub plan. You can buy a dinky sub (B&Ws ASW608 would be ideal) to re-inforce the bottom end. placement can be fairly flexible.

I wouldn't play my Hi-Fi without the sub now.

Definitely give you that punch you're missing without having to go nuts with the volume.

 

[Anonymous]

I had 602S3 speakers and NAD CD player. Moving from QED SA biwire speaker cable to chord oddy 4 helped (expensive even on ebay I know) but I I have since upgraded the rest of the system. You might try some smoother interconnects (Nordost Black Knight worked wonders for me).

I can't believe you need bass as those speakers have loads. I changed speakers to get more mid-range but had to pay over 4 times as much. I'm not convinced about subs for stereo but I know some people have tried it with success.

 

[d_a_n1979]

IMO the amp is the weakness here.

I'd possibly look at upgrading to a NAD (i.e. NAD C352 via eBay) or a NAD C355BEE integrated amp.

The B&W speakers would sing at their best with these amps.

You could also look to change to Chord Carnival Silverscreen speaker cable and Chord Crimson interconnects.

You don't mention whether you've got the speakers on stands. If you do, what stands are they and are they mass filled (sand or atabites etc...)?

Decent stands under standmount speakers make a lot of difference to sound as well; at a minimum I'd be looking at Atacama Nexus 6 stands or the Soundstyle Z2's. If your budget could meet it; the Partington SuperDreadnought stands would be bob on.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Because of your music preferences, I'd say it's going to be hard to know what to change, as it's a great system for for electronic music.

Personally, I don't think you'll be able to upgrade it much with what you get for the other components. The best thing I can recommend is to lok at any used Rotel amps like the RA1062/RA1060, which were normally around £600ish. These will give you extra oomph and current, and be a little less ragged at the top end at higher volumes, but will keep that Rotel/B&W synergy going. The other option is to add a power amplifier to your RA02, giving the above benefits, plus allowing you to bi-amp.

You could also look at cabling. If Chord isn't smooth enough for you, you could try a few Van Den Hul cables, which I find some of the smoothest, and might just take that edge off that you don't like.

You speakers shouldn't lack bass, but you could see if you can pick up a pair of DM603 S3's, r even DM603 S2's. These will give you extra at the low end. One of the best budget systems I ever heard for electronic music was a Rotel pre/power (RC971/RB971 with DM603's) which rocked - nice low bass with good punch. At high volumes, the system kept itself together, and the guy was over the moon with it. But if you do go for 603's, you'll need one of Rotel's bigger amps as mentioned above, or one of their pre/powers to get the full benefit of them.

I would only add a sub when you're happy with the main components of the system.

 

[Anonymous]

I'm with Big Chris on this. For dance music especially, I'd consider a sub a priority. It won't just let you 'feel' lower bass notes around the 60HZ mark, but it will let you 'hear' the bass better around the 80HZ mark. Infact the 60-100HZ area will give you an added perception of 'warmth' to the sound.

Subs are better at reproducing these frequencies than most hi-fi speakers, and unlike swapping your cables over where you may or may not perceive a change, using a sub WILL show an immediate and obvious difference. A simple case of turning it on and off will show what it adds to the sonics, and your dance music will sound a bit light by comparison without it in the mix.

See if you can loan one from somewhere, and see what you think.

 

[Binman]

Thanks too all who have replied. Taking your comments on board, I have had a little experiment this morning...

BTW, the speakers are on filled Alphason stands.

I think I should clarify the bass issue - I do have bass at volumes higher than I normally listen to music. When I turn it down the low end bass goes, and is replaced with what I can only describe as a low-mid bass which resonates in my ears / brain, its not loud, but just annoying, it sort of sounds like (please don't laugh) I have disposable plastic cups around my ears playing the bass. I cant enjoy my music as I'm always waiting for the horrible bass. Anyway.

I have a pair of B&W 600 S1 in the kitchen, which I swapped over to compare. They sounded really good. The scale of the bass was smaller, but the bass I could hear was tight and defined, which got me thinking about speaker placement.

Changed back to the 602 S3 and connected a Rotel RA 931 to them - more or less the same issue. Swapped some cables about, played with tone on the amp, same issue.

Finally I tried moving the speakers (thanks to sivanessen for suggesting this). The 602 S3 are in the corners of my lounge, either side of a bay window. The 600 S1 I tried were placed closer together, further from the wall / corner of the room. So I moved the 602 S3 closer together. They are now about a foot from the side wall, and with the bay window, there is quite a bit of space behind too. What a revelation! The sound is like night and day!The whole sound has become less harsh at the top end, as the mid range has improved, and the bass has gone from being horrible/rattling inside my ears / brain, to something actually I want to listen to.

Listening to Dirty Epic by Underworld was just amazing, low end bass, clear midrange, and not too harsh top end.

DAN1978 & FrankHarveyHiFi - However...when I crank it up, it starts to loose something. The definition of the high/mid/low starts to fade. So I think I may have to look at changing the amplifier, or adding a matching power amp

Q - if I bought a s/hand Rotel power amp, could I use my RA-02 with it, or would I need to get the matched pre/power combo (RB & RC 03)?

 

[Big Chris]

Glad you resolved it. I use 602 S3s too and although I am looking to upgrade them this year (Well..It has been 8 years) I think they're very good speakers.

Check the back of your RA-02. If it has a pair of pre-outs, you can use it as a pre-amp.

 

[Dougal1331]

I have heard talk that the 602s3s do take a bit of oomph (technical term...) to get their woofers going, they do sound best with a good few Watts up them.

If you go for an upgrade, the NAD C352 would be a fantastic match for them, and a Roksan Kandy would probably work too- I use one with 601s3s, and the results are very impressive...

 

[Frank Harvey]

Binman: DAN1978 & FrankHarveyHiFi - However...when I crank it up, it starts to loose something. The definition of the high/mid/low starts to fade. So I think I may have to look at changing the amplifier, or adding a matching power amp

Q - if I bought a s/hand Rotel power amp, could I use my RA-02 with it, or would I need to get the matched pre/power combo (RB & RC 03)?

One of the amplifiers I mentioned will clear that up - what you're experiencing is the RA02 giving a little more than it comfortably manage. An RA1060/1062 will sort this out, and up your quality a little too. Adding a power amp would help too, but you'll not improve quality, only power delivery. You'd probably be surprised how much this will change the bass - you'll get a little more, with added punch and a little more depth too. The B&W's might be rated at 8ohms, but they dip to 4ohms at lower frequencies. This makes them harder to manage, and in need of a better amplifier.

 

[batonwielder]

I agree with you, Frank, but wouldn't adding a power amp basically be the same thing as upgrading to the higher end model?

 

[Anonymous]

Sorry should have mentioned that 602S3's need a foot clearance at back and side to sound at their best.

 

[Frank Harvey]

batonwielder:I agree with you, Frank, but wouldn't adding a power amp basically be the same thing as upgrading to the higher end model?

David

As far as power is concerned yes, but the RA1060/1062 will have a better pre-amp section, sso will give you more power and better quality - adding a power amp to what you have won't change quality, only add power.

 

[MUSICRAFT]

Binman:

My system is a little bright for my liking, and bass is lacking, unless I crank it up, at which point the brightness becomes a problem. I mainly listen to electronic music - chemical brothers, underworld, orbital, and some bands such as Radiohead. I also use it for movies.

My system: Rotel RA-02 Amp, Rotel RCD-02 CDP, B&W 602 S3 Speakers, Squeezebox Classic

What should I change? Amp or Speakers or both? I don't really use the CDP, so I'll sell that along with the component(s) I change. With the cash I would purchase something second hand so I wouldn't need to spend any extra.

I was initially thinking about a subwoofer, but I really don't have the space for one.

Hi binman

I would also recommend that you look at changing the amplifier to something like (as has already been suggested) the NAD C355BEE or (if you are happy to buy used) the C352.

Both of the NAD amplifiers are superior to the RA-02 (i know as i have sold plenty of them) as they will give a better tonal balance (with an even greater sense of weight at low/moderate levels), resolution, scale and power levels to further keep the 602's in check.

Thanks

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[Binman]

Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but I thought I would post an update as I've changed my set up a little.

I purchased a Rotel RB-06 power amp from ebay recently for a good price. I am now using my RA-02 amp as a pre-amp with the RB-06. The change was exactly what I was looking for, I am well happy!

Bags of power, which means I no longer have to crank it up to get decent bass, music if 'fuller' at lower volumes, and still maintains a nice sound when cranked up. My B&W 602S3 speakers defiantly sing now with the extra power. All I need to do now is sell my RCD-02 CD player, and it will probably only have cost me £30 to get the RB-06.

 

[rymidd]

i had the same problem with a rotel ra 01 which i solved by changing the amp with a nad 326bee which is much better than the rotel. the nad had more grip on the speakers more balanced the sound just flows better.