Room acoustics and room treatment

[ellisdj]

I think its just better long term for performance as well, especially why you have the luxury of buying to suit - not already owning and buying to make it work.

You could get a server with a USB out then use one of the very many USB to Spdif converters that exist. Its another box but some of these actually improve performance also. Some from china are supposed to be outstanding for very little out lay

How much do you want to spend on the server?

 

[newlash09]

The Sony HAP Z1 ES. I could get it for 2000 dollars in the US. But then it has a remote app and built in dac. So I guess around 2000 dollars if it has a remote app and a dac.

 

[ellisdj]

An all in one is not going to work, there is nowhere in the chain to put the mini dsp dirac unit

- you need streamer then mini dsp dirac unit then dac.

This is better as it allows you to upgrade each bit individually and it will sound better as well - more boxes but worth it as it opens you up to the whole market.

maybe $1000 on each - ps audio have just released a new range of products streamer / dac around that price point

 

[insider9]

At that kind of budget PC with Roon and Dirac Live as a source would be my bet. This is as long as you don't need Minidsps to with as a crossover or have any analogue sources. Then you put the rest of your money in a DAC.

 

[ellisdj]

Building a dedicated audio pc is a great way to go, but its not cheap and does require a reasonable amount of computer knowledge with hardware and software. Its a long term project in its self - a very rewarding one

Edit you could use a laptop as your music source thats another option

 

[newlash09]

The idea of a computer as a server did arise in the past. But several people were mentioning jitter from PC as a deterrent to sound quality. Thus was considering the Sony server. However, IAM still recovering from the purchase of the parasound. So my next purchase will only be next year for the server. Will plug in a hard drive into the Yamaha wxc-50 in the meanwhile as suggested. However don't know if it can read large hard drives.

However room correction is something I would like to invest in immediately.

Is Dirac live more advanced than the minidsp. And what do I need to buy to get it. Thanks again.

 

[insider9]

As long as they're formated in FAT32 and have it's own power supply, no problem. Alternatively you can use a large USB stick like I do. My 2TB Seagate requires more power than the Yamaha can give.

EDIT:

Minidsp can incorporate Dirac but doesn't have to. Dirac's advantage is it's automation. You could do the same with just Minidsp or even a PC but the process is lengthy, requires quite a bit of a steep learning curve.

 

[newlash09]

Came with Dirac by default.

 

[insider9]

Came with Dirac by default.

No, two different companies and two different products.

Minidsp does digital crossovers and DSP in many different bits of hardware. They obviously have their own softare to cotrol it but nothing like Dirac. Dirac is a software that can be loaded onto Minidsp hardware. So yes it can come as default in some products. But there are many more Minidsp products that don't use Dirac.

 

[newlash09]

That was really helpful. Was considering the minidsp for the digital crossover when I was using the blue sound powernode as the amp. However the present amp has inbuilt crossover for sub woofer and also high pass filter for the speaker outs. So IAM now only looking for Dirac alone. Apart from minidsp is there any ready component available off the shelf that only does Dirac in digital realm. Thanks.

P.S: is the minidsp still worth consideration for the other things it does.

 

[luckylion100]

aren't you in the States? If so, have you considered perhaps Emotiva? I seem to recall some of their products incorporated Dirac Live... This is just a stab in the dark, school run means I haven't had time to look around properly at other DIrac Live hardware/software options.

 

[ellisdj]

There isnt many options - we are lucky to have any options.

Options I know are

Emotiva AV Processor

Arcam AV Processor / Receiver

Datasat AV Processor £20k

MiniDSP Units - Like the DDRC22D - this is the obvious choice

Or you can just run the software in a PC such as I do. PC's dont naturally sound good imo, but you can make then sound good with a bit of work.

EDIT - Just seen a tweet Dirac is on its way to Nad gear

 

[newlash09]

IAM a sailor so I come to the UK and US frequently. And I make most of my purchases there, as they are 50% of what it costs here in India. I guess the minidsp is the cheapest option for Dirac. I didn't want to commit another pc to music as my system resides in my dining room, and I don't want to add a box unless I absolutely have to. Will stream from a hard drive plugged into the WXC-50 via digital out into the minidsp and into the inbuilt dac of my amp. Thanks again.

Next year I will consider either going for a music server or a seperate dac.

 

[ellisdj]

If you can do it like that you might not need to.

For me having all your music stored digitally is all about the access to it i.e the quality of the control app.

If anyone has used jremote for jriver thats how to do it. I am sure Roon is very good as well

 

[insider9]

I must say room treatment can be a hobby in itself I'm rather enjoying it. The results are stunning and I'm not yet finished. I managed to DIY a cloud yesterday. *dirol* Pictures are here and here. Was quite anxious whether it would make a difference but it did

All I'm now missing is floor treatment. I've got few issues with bass left to deal with all above 200Hz but even if I was to leave it as is it sounds great without DSP. In real terms I think all it's needed is floor treatment (first reflection) and possibly some diffusion.

Will post measurements later when I hopefully dealt with the floor.

 

[Andrewjvt]

If you can do it like that you might not need to.

For me having all your music stored digitally is all about the access to it i.e the quality of the control app.

If anyone has used jremote for jriver thats how to do it. I am sure Roon is very good as well

Do you use jremote?

 

[ellisdj]

Hi Andrew.

When I used to use JRiver with Jplay I used Jremote.

The fact you could star rate songs was a brilliant reminder.

But for the last few years jplay is indepenent and I use BubbleDS next now. It seems the best of the cheap / free upnp (Think right name) controllers.

 

[ellisdj]

I just uploaded a Video showing the effect of dirac Live

I think it shows it quite well - I did make a better vid than this but it got blocked

 

[insider9]

I just uploaded a Video showing the effect of dirac Live

I think it shows it quite well - I did make a better vid than this but it got blocked

Great video as always. It may be useful to detail the songs you're using in either description or during/at the end of the video.

 

[ellisdj]

Shazam them

Its free on android and its got me quite a few gems from other videos

Your right I will do buddy thanks for the heads up

 

[insider9]

Thought it may be helpful for others to see how big of a difference room treatment can make. Worth mentioning that this is room treatment alone and no DSP is applied on any of the measurements. I would love to do one more set of measurements with Minidsp but sadly it's out of action.

It may not look the best but it's setup for best sound quality in mind and if I could move/remove any panels I would. Sadly, each and every contributes to the overall result so they're all necessary.

Room treatment consists of 19 panels in total 16 smaller panels (made to spec by a BBC engineer for studio use) plus 3 bigger diy ones (cloud and two bass traps). Apart from the ceiling everything else is free standing and can be removed. And this is how it looks picture here

 

[insider9]

All before are in red and after in green.

Freqency resonse before treatment (no smoothing) - here

Freqency resonse after treatment (no smoothing) - here

Freqency resonse before treatment (1/48 smoothing) - here

Freqency resonse after treatment (1/48 smoothing) - here

Impulse response before - here

Impulse response after - here

Impulse response comparison - here

Waterfall before - here

Waterfall after - here

RT60 comparison - here

C50 comparison - here

No significant difference to THD

Feedback highly welcome

 

[ellisdj]

Does it sound fat in the bass?

You have got a massive 15db peak at 50 - 60hz. Never taming that without some dsp on it.

I bet its punchy but sounds fat there - same as mine does in the video with dirac turned off

 

[insider9]

Yes, DSP will sort that out once I get round to sending Minidsp back for repairs. The bass doesn't seem as bad as it looks. Most importantly it's something that can easily be attenuated.

The equal loudness curve goes even higher than that by the way. Fletcher Munson at circa 70 odd phons would look uncannily similar. I hardly ever listen louder than that. It isn't a big enough room.

I'm chuffed with the results. Small rooms are a nightmare to treat. With 1/48 smoothing I get about +/- 5 dB which is excellent. Was I to do a 1/6 smoothing it would be +/- 3 dB. That's a great starting point for DSP.

I didn't expect accuracy just an improvement on non treated room which is staggering.

 

[ellisdj]

Insider I forgot to say before been so busy but you have done a Grand job with all this.

You have got your RT60 looking real good compared to where it was and I am just so impressed with your apititude with it all - I am now learning from you which is great because I only ever knew the basics and always wanted to know more.

I think you still have some room for improvement - looking at your treatment - to do it though it would need to be mega thick or just better designed to work into the lower bass ranges more effectively. I cross referenced my own waterfalls to yours and after putting in 6 GIK soffit traps I got much better waterfall decay at a higher spl from 2 big subs than before - but they are big treatments.

Looking at everything tightening up your low end 60hz and below is the only area not nailed - that is the hardest area obviously