Roksan K2/K2 BT Phono Stage

[Happy_Listner]

Does any one here own a Roksan K2 and use a record player with it? I was wonder how the quality of its MM phono stage is?

I have a nice sounding integrated amp now the Croft phono integrated that has an excellent tubed phono stage in it.

I was thinking of changing amps to the Roksan K2 BT because I want the added power, 140 watts to drive more difficult speakers. It has a remote control and I also like the Blue Tooth feature so I can stream some internet radio and Itunes songs.

I wanted to know if the phono stage is good enough or more of a let down as I listen to a lot of records.

Also any thoughts about the sound quality of the amps Croft vs. Roksan? The two amps cost about the same.

Thanks

 

[plastic penguin]

Most built-in phono stages are generally very good. Whether there's a discernable difference between the older K2 and the BT, I doubt it.

 

[KeithT]

I appreciate that it's not the same but I used to use a Roksan Kandy MK3 and it had a very good phono stage. One would suspect that they would carry it over. Although I used a MC through a Project Phono box.

 

[Vladimir]

I haven't tried the phono on my K2 BT yet, but I see no difference build wise throught the bonnet vents. Might be equal to the standard K2 and I don't see anywhere in the manufacturers brag literature mentioning they upped the phono. But what they improved that benefits the phono as well as the whole amp is the volume tracking. The phono in the standard K2 was considered a good one for an integrated, best to give it a listen yourself in a dealers showroom.

And just technical correction, the K2 BT is 175W p/c in 8 ohms and 300W p/c in 4 ohms. Really nice feature for low efficient speakers. My B&W CM1s measure effectively 81db and eat up watts like mad.

Croft Acoustics amp is a tube amp with much less power and current delivery than the K2 BT, consider tube amps in general are for relatively high efficient speakers (95db and more). Valve won't have the dynamic punch a MOSFET amp will provide, but interesting thing is FET amps are as close one can get to tube sound from a tranzistors as possible. Never heard the Croft amp but IME if done propper it should have richer tones, texture and timbre than a SS amp and with those gutsy 45W p/c it should sound as loud as any integrated with 90db+ speakers in normal sized living room.

Now when I'm thinking about it I would love a 40W valve amp more than the K2 BT but when I actually held the money I was rational and went with the higher performing and more vercatile amp with tube like sound - the Roksan.

The right amp for the right speakers.

 

[AlCB]

I too have MKIII Kandy - I suspect phono has not changed much over time. It produces a very acceptable sound and will be more than adequate for most budget and mid range TTs, but I suspect a good dedicated phono stage separate will give better results.

 

[davedotco]

Point of order.

The Croft is a hybrid amplifier with solid state output stage in the 40-50 watt region.

The phono stage is valve and although the output stage is solid state, it behaves in a very valve like manner.

This means that unlike most amplifiers at this sort of price the Croft needs very careful system and speaker matching. Get this right and you have a fantastic amplifier, in my view easily the best sounding amplifier in its class.

However it is not a universal amplifier like the Roksan (or the Creek), you need to work out what your priorities are.

 

[Vladimir]

Ah its hybrid! Even more tempting, hmmm.

 

[davedotco]

Ah its hybrid! Even more tempting, hmmm.

Nah, it's a bit 'girly' for you.

Needs to be pampered, likes to talk about it's feelings, you know the sort of thing.

 

[Vladimir]

Needy.

 

[davedotco]

Needy.

Exactly........ 8)

 

[Vladimir]

Done with needy. I want an intercontinental missile that will explode my mind with John Coltrane - Ascension.

John Coltrane - Sax (T)

Pharoah Sanders - Sax (T)

Archie Shepp - Sax (T)

Marion Brown - Sax (A)

Art Davis - Bass

Jimmy Garrison - Bass

Freddie Hubbard - Trumpet

Dewey Johnson - Trumpet

McCoy Tyner - Piano

Elvin Jones - Drums

Rudy Van Gelder - Sound Engineer

 

[davedotco]

That is some seriously wierd stuff. Mrs DDC made me turn it off, something else to be played when I am indoors on my own...... :?

I had a lot of 'issues' with early Coltrane, all that endless 'noodling' on A Love Supreme and Favourite things used to drive me potty.

Sun ship on the other hand..... :rockout:

 

[Happy_Listner]

Vladimir, davedotco is right about the Croft, it is a bit Girly as it has two nice knobs on the front for the volume control. You need both hands to get the job done.

Thanks everyone for your input.

True that the Croft is a hybrid integrated. It has a passive preamp and uses 1 tube for amplifier input stage and has a solid state MOSFET output. The phono stage has 2 tubes. It is around 45 watts into 8ohms but only maybe 60 or so watts into 4 ohms. This is where the Roksan becomes a much more versatile amp.

Vladimir, I said that the Roksan K2 BT was 140 watts (into 8ohms) because it says so right on the back on the amplifier. I saw in a picture. But I have seen some reviews that say it is 150 watts. It is Confusing. Anyways, the Roksan brochure says 140 watts into 8 ohms and 250 watts into 4 ohms. Either way it's plenty of power for the money!

Have you used the the Blue Tooth much?

Thanks

 

[Vladimir]

@HL

I found out that there are actually two version of the K2 BT. The manufacturer did a revision on the initial 140W p/c.

Roksan Kandy K2 BT MkI - 140W p/c in 8 ohms, 250W p/c in 4 ohms

Roksan Kandy K2 BT MkII - 175W p/c in 8 ohms, ?W in 4 ohms (promoted as 150W p/c in 8 ohms, 300W p/c in 4 ohms)

When they upgraded the caps in the power amp section they got more power out of it but declared in marketing 150W in 8 ohms and 300W in 4 ohms because it sounds very cool to have an amp that doubles power at half load. It actually says on the back plate 175W p/c in 8 ohms.

8 MOSFETs and 550VA will get you there no doubt.

I use the BT with FLAC files at 16/44 and I'm quite happy with the sound quality. Its somewhere between CD and 320kbps to my ears. Should be actually 352kbps stream. Very easy to use and works great. I use both phones and a bluetooth 4.0 dongle for my PC. All plug'n'play.

With the Kandy there is no double knob action, unfortunatly. But the remote is very long and nice to hold on to.

 

[Happy_Listner]

Valdimir,

Thanks for posting the picture.

That's really interesting and I can't believe there is a MK 2 version already. That was a very quick revision by Roksan. I wonder why they did that since it was already so powerful? Now I know why I was confused before with the Hi-Fi Choice review and with what you said.

Looks like Roksan not only upgraded the caps but the transformer as well from 500v to 550v. Also, they are using 5 regulated supply rails instead of 4. Monster power now at 175w into 8ohms and 300w into a 4ohm load.

I could drive some power hungry Magnepan speakers with that K2 BT or almost just about any speaker. This makes the K2 BT a very versatile amp and also upgrade proof. My Croft is very nice sounding but limited in what it can drive.

If I can get 90-95% of the sound quality from the Roksan compared to my Croft then I think I could be happy. The extra power and features would make it a worthwhile upgrade.

 

[davedotco]

Valdimir,

Thanks for posting the picture.

That's really interesting and I can't believe there is a MK 2 version already. That was a very quick revision by Roksan. I wonder why they did that since it was already so powerful? Now I know why I was confused before with the Hi-Fi Choice review and with what you said.

Looks like Roksan not only upgraded the caps but the transformer as well from 500v to 550v. Also, they are using 5 regulated supply rails instead of 4. Monster power now at 175w into 8ohms and 300w into a 4ohm load.

I could drive some power hungry Magnepan speakers with that K2 BT or almost just about any speaker. This makes the K2 BT a very versatile amp and also upgrade proof. My Croft is very nice sounding but limited in what it can drive.

If I can get 90-95% of the sound quality from the Roksan compared to my Croft then I think I could be happy. The extra power and features would make it a worthwhile upgrade.

Three thoughts.....

Do not confuse power with quality, there is little or no correlation in my experience.

The qualities that make the Croft so special are very subjective, if they work for you then you will like this amplifier a lot. It is the cheapest amplifier I know of that makes any music sound, somehow, more real. This, in my experience, is a trick I normally associate with amplifiers from the likes of Electrocompaniet, Sugden and Devialet.

If you want to drive difficult speakers then fair enough, this may not be the amp for you but there is another way, sensitive speakers that make the most of the Crofts power output. You also need a benign impedence curve, so treat the Croft like you would a valve amplifier and speaker match very carefully.

 

[plastic penguin]

I've always preached quality over quantity. This theory was rammed home when I had a 200 watt (£1300 when new) MF on home dem, and although it exhibited control, the overall presentation just didn't hang together. The shocking thing was I had my 40 watt Arcam at the time.

 

[Vladimir]

All the talk how too much power is bad is rubbish. Go up the range on your amp's manufacturers and you will see how much they start selling the clean power story. There are no special 50 watts and Kandy's competitors are built with no better components and in most cases of worse quality.

The old Kandy K2 measured better or as good as the Supernait and Exposure 3010 S2 on John Atkinson's bench. The Noratel transformer in the Kandy K2 is a major asset to the Exposure 3010 S2 and the Rega Elicit-R is built with cheaper parts and all of them are less powerfull. The Axicom and Schrack relays are used in amp up to 15000GBP and more, as well as the Elna Silmic II and UCC GPA caps. It is really worth multiple times than its price or its competitors are a rippoff, depends on your POV.

In the UK power = vulgarity, or so it seems.

 

[plastic penguin]

All the talk how too much power is bad is rubbish. Go up the range on your amp's manufacturers and you will see how much they start selling the clean power story. There are no special 50 watts and Kandy's competitors are built with no better components and in most cases of worse quality.

Don't think anyone has stated that "too much power is bad". By the same token, just because you have power doesn't necessarily mean you have the quality. Swings and roundabouts.

 

[Vladimir]

All the talk how too much power is bad is rubbish. Go up the range on your amp's manufacturers and you will see how much they start selling the clean power story. There are no special 50 watts and Kandy's competitors are built with no better components and in most cases of worse quality.

Don't think anyone has stated that "too much power is bad". By the same token, just because you have power doesn't necessarily mean you have the quality. Swings and roundabouts.

That is very true. In the past I tried many hugely powerfull amps (japanese mostly) but they sounded distorted and dry to my ears.

It all comes down to the wisdom - Every general statement is a wrong one, including this one.

 

[davedotco]

In the UK power = vulgarity, or so it seems.

Spot on.

In the UK it is known as 'Clarkson syndrome'........

Appropriately in the old days Rolls Royce never quoted the power of their engines, if pressed on this, the answer given was 'enough'.

This is probably even more applicable to hi-fi, as insufficiant power is a real limitation at budget and mid-fi levels. If you choose inefficient speakers such as the small ATC or the CM1 then you need a powerful amplifier to give you the headroom to reproduce music at higher than background music levels.

It is difficult to overemphasise the importance of speaker sensitivity.

Just using the examples in this thread it is perhaps shocking to realise that a 45wpc Croft paired with a pair of 2050i will go louder and have more dynamic headroom than a 175wpc Roksan into a pair of CM1s.

 

[Vladimir]

I bought needy speakers so I had to go for a forcefull and giving amp. A relationship that works beautifully....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Edwsf-8F3sI