Reviews at different price points confusing !

[Snooker]

Reviews are funny things, because it may say the same things for example "great dynamics etc" for say a system around £1000 and the "same etc" for a system around £3000 ending in both cases that there is nothing wrong at this price point, so which sounds better, you would presume the dearer system but this is not always the case, also some people can give a system 4 stars while others would give 5 stars ! !

 

[bluedroog]

Well it is all relative, so take price in to account. Better still forget about reviews all together.

 

[jjbomber]

.... also some people can give a system 4 stars while others would give 5 stars ! !

Reviews are just someone's opinion, that's all. If it gets 5 stars, it just means it is right for them. It doesn't mean it right for the person reading the review. That is why it is important that you listen to equipment in person to find what is best for you. It works the other way too. Some reviewer may only give a product 4 stars, yet to others it is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

 

[TrevC]

.... also some people can give a system 4 stars while others would give 5 stars ! !

Reviews are just someone's opinion, that's all. If it gets 5 stars, it just means it is right for them. It doesn't mean it right for the person reading the review. That is why it is important that you listen to equipment in person to find what is best for you. It works the other way too. Some reviewer may only give a product 4 stars, yet to others it is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

All reviews that do no electronic testing are not worth reading. A good amplifier should be the definitive straight wire with gain, IOW the output signal when loaded with a loudspeaker should be identical to the input signal but with greater amplitude. Get that right and you have the best amplifier you could possibly have in a system. A review that doesn't even test the power capabilty of an amplifier isn't worth the paper it's written on.

 

[muljao]

I think it comes down to common sense at this point. Obviously the review section is a helpful indicator, but not the be all end all.

I'm sure the reviewers have guidelines of some description. If they carry out reviews correctly it's probably safe to say a 4 star product that's 3000 pounds is in theory better than a 5 star product that's 1000 pounds, being that value is a factor in assessing gear

 

[Infiniteloop]

.... also some people can give a system 4 stars while others would give 5 stars ! !

Reviews are just someone's opinion, that's all. If it gets 5 stars, it just means it is right for them. It doesn't mean it right for the person reading the review. That is why it is important that you listen to equipment in person to find what is best for you. It works the other way too. Some reviewer may only give a product 4 stars, yet to others it is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

All reviews that do no electronic testing are not worth reading. A good amplifier should be the definitive straight wire with gain, IOW the output signal when loaded with a loudspeaker should be identical to the input signal but with greater amplitude. Get that right and you have the best amplifier you could possibly have in a system. A review that doesn't even test the power capabilty of an amplifier isn't worth the paper it's written on.

You've just described a Devialet.

 

[Native_bon]

May I also add. Even if every review gives a product 5* does not necessary mean you are going to like the sound of that product or will sound right to your ears in your setup. Reviews are only a guide, & a lot of good marketing comes into play as well.

 

[lpv]

.... also some people can give a system 4 stars while others would give 5 stars ! !

Reviews are just someone's opinion, that's all. If it gets 5 stars, it just means it is right for them. It doesn't mean it right for the person reading the review. That is why it is important that you listen to equipment in person to find what is best for you. It works the other way too. Some reviewer may only give a product 4 stars, yet to others it is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

All reviews that do no electronic testing are not worth reading. A good amplifier should be the definitive straight wire with gain, IOW the output signal when loaded with a loudspeaker should be identical to the input signal but with greater amplitude. Get that right and you have the best amplifier you could possibly have in a system. A review that doesn't even test the power capabilty of an amplifier isn't worth the paper it's written on.

You've just described a Devialet.

do you think the same can be done cheaper?

 

[TrevC]

I honestly think that if all amplifier 'testing' was carried out blind What Hifi reviewers would scarcely be able to tell which was expensive and which was not. Modern amplifier distortion even in the budget class is inaudible.

 

[Native_bon]

I honestly think that if all amplifier 'testing' was carried out blind What Hifi reviewers would scarcely be able to tell which was expensive and which was not. Modern amplifier distortion even in the budget class is inaudible.

I agree. They may well hear differences in sound, but telling which in expensive & which is not is totally different ball game all together.

 

[thewinelake.]

I honestly think that if all amplifier 'testing' was carried out blind What Hifi reviewers would scarcely be able to tell which was expensive and which was not. Modern amplifier distortion even in the budget class is inaudible.

+1

I've been thinking that for quite some time.

I would also add DACs, CD players, cables, High resolution digital sources, USB de-jitterers.... But that's not the point, is it?! ;-)

 

[Snooker]

I originated this thread and also agree that in blind tests you would not know which is the more expensive, which just goes to show how good budget stuff is these days, and beleive that most of the higher end gear probably does not sound any better *smile*

 

[Frank Harvey]

You've just described a Devialet.

do you think the same can be done cheaper?

Maybe, but it can certainly be done better too, depending on the speakers being used.

 

[Al ears]

I originated this thread and also agree that in blind tests you would not know which is the more expensive, which just goes to show how good budget stuff is these days, and beleive that most of the higher end gear probably does not sound any better *smile*

Possibly but that's a choice an individual must make.

I am a firm believer in 'you get what you pay for', always allowing for the fact you actually know what you are looking at when buying. ;-)

The quality of construction and internal parts and power supplies all add to the cost but usually also the longevity of a product as does liason and feedback from the manufacturer themselves, which is why I went for a locally made amplification source (Tom Evans Audio). That sort of approachability has to, and in my case is, worth paying for if your products are a lifetime investment.

I could just buy a cheap amp and hope it lasts a couple of years but that's unlikely.

Reviews, and I read many, are only there as a guide and many are written by very experienced people who have auditioned name vast amount of products and do so every month. Some I trust,others not. My main point of reading reviews these days is to spot obvious failings rather than the overall outcome of a product.

Blind testing may have its place but even that tells you little as nobodies hearing / set-up is ever the same.

You cannot get better than a personal audition preferably at home.

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

I originated this thread and also agree that in blind tests you would not know which is the more expensive, which just goes to show how good budget stuff is these days, and beleive that most of the higher end gear probably does not sound any better *smile*

Depnds on (1) the budget system you're talking about and (2) the higher end (i.e. expensive) system you're talking about too.

Sure as Sherlock budget hifi has come a long way in the last two decades, whilst "high end" stuff probably hasn't progressed so much. After all, there's not much you can do with the same range of components to choose from, and the boutique manufacturers can't exactly go knocking on the chip manufacturers' door asking them for a whole dozen new and unique chips. And most budget hifi is probably still let down by budget speakers hooked up with cheap, thin, speaker cables.

There's also a lot of "smoke and mirrors" and branding / advertising style over substance with a lot of mid-price brands. Naming no names, but one brand that rhymes with "nose" and another brand of headphones that rhymes with "eats" spring immediately to mind, and previously well respected brands that have been bought out by conglomerates often trade more on the reputation of the pre-takeover products than on the cheaper to manufacture but still got that badge units that are now being sold under the brand names.

As for whether a 5-star budget system is as good as a 5-star expensive system really isn't on. Supposing you were reviewing cars. You do a review of small budget runabout hatchbacks and decide which one is the best in that price / market sector. You give that one five stars. Now you do a review of luxury large cars, i.e. S-Class Mercs, big Jags, Lexuses (?), Rollers, Bentleys, etc. You decide which one of those is best and give that five stars. Then you do a review of hyper-performance two-seater sportscars, e.g. Ferraris, Lambos, Koeniggeggs (sp) etc. You decide which one of those is best and give it five stars. Now, would it be fair to compare the five-star hatchback to the five-star luxury sedan and / or to the five-star hypercar? No. Of course it wouldn't. And the same applies to hifi. There's no point trying to cmpare Sony, Aiwa, Amstrad, you name it brands from Argos with mid-range brands from your local hifi shop or with boutique brands you can only buy from a very few select dealers. The evaluation criteria are completely different.

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_1501104106582061]

I honestly think that if all amplifier 'testing' was carried out blind What Hifi reviewers would scarcely be able to tell which was expensive and which was not. Modern amplifier distortion even in the budget class is inaudible.

I guess it depends what you classify as expensive and what's not. If you consider $500 not expensive then maybe, I don;t have enough knowledge or experience to argue on that front. But I recently made my entry into what I consider a good system by upgrading my complete setup from cheap parts to significantly better components (that bought used). The biggest difference came when I changed my (definitely not expensive) $90 amplifier for a used marantz. I could definitely hear the difference in a blind test, I bet ya I could tell 'em appart half deaf with earmuffs on.

 

[Native_bon]

I originated this thread and also agree that in blind tests you would not know which is the more expensive, which just goes to show how good budget stuff is these days, and beleive that most of the higher end gear probably does not sound any better *smile*

Depnds on (1) the budget system you're talking about and (2) the higher end (i.e. expensive) system you're talking about too.

Sure as Sherlock budget hifi has come a long way in the last two decades, whilst "high end" stuff probably hasn't progressed so much. After all, there's not much you can do with the same range of components to choose from, and the boutique manufacturers can't exactly go knocking on the chip manufacturers' door asking them for a whole dozen new and unique chips. And most budget hifi is probably still let down by budget speakers hooked up with cheap, thin, speaker cables.

There's also a lot of "smoke and mirrors" and branding / advertising style over substance with a lot of mid-price brands. Naming no names, but one brand that rhymes with "nose" and another brand of headphones that rhymes with "eats" spring immediately to mind, and previously well respected brands that have been bought out by conglomerates often trade more on the reputation of the pre-takeover products than on the cheaper to manufacture but still got that badge units that are now being sold under the brand names.

As for whether a 5-star budget system is as good as a 5-star expensive system really isn't on. Supposing you were reviewing cars. You do a review of small budget runabout hatchbacks and decide which one is the best in that price / market sector. You give that one five stars. Now you do a review of luxury large cars, i.e. S-Class Mercs, big Jags, Lexuses (?), Rollers, Bentleys, etc. You decide which one of those is best and give that five stars. Then you do a review of hyper-performance two-seater sportscars, e.g. Ferraris, Lambos, Koeniggeggs (sp) etc. You decide which one of those is best and give it five stars. Now, would it be fair to compare the five-star hatchback to the five-star luxury sedan and / or to the five-star hypercar? No. Of course it wouldn't. And the same applies to hifi. There's no point trying to cmpare Sony, Aiwa, Amstrad, you name it brands from Argos with mid-range brands from your local hifi shop or with boutique brands you can only buy from a very few select dealers. The evaluation criteria are completely different.

That is really bad comparison. When people mean expensive & cheaper Hifi, they mean eg: Rega, marantz, rotel, Nad(not Argos) compared to say.. Arcam, Krell, Naim, Sugden, Hegel, Linn. No one is saying there is no difference, it all boils dwn to presentation, & some may just prefer the sound of a cheaper system comapred to an expensive one. Thats how close it can get. If am correct, this is what the Original post is trying to portray. Really good sound quality & performance can be acquire on the cheap in the Hifi world right now. Can not say the same with cars. You can't compare the performance of an expensive Bugatti to that of a mini.

 

[TrevC]

I honestly think that if all amplifier 'testing' was carried out blind What Hifi reviewers would scarcely be able to tell which was expensive and which was not. Modern amplifier distortion even in the budget class is inaudible.

I guess it depends what you classify as expensive and what's not. If you consider $500 not expensive then maybe, I don;t have enough knowledge or experience to argue on that front. But I recently made my entry into what I consider a good system by upgrading my complete setup from cheap parts to significantly better components (that bought used). The biggest difference came when I changed my (definitely not expensive) $90 amplifier for a used marantz. I could definitely hear the difference in a blind test, I bet ya I could tell 'em appart half deaf with earmuffs on.

I was thinking amplifiers with similar power outputs and distortion figures at say £150 upwards. Does a Yamaha sound worse than a Primare? Probably not.

 

[ID.]

I honestly think that if all amplifier 'testing' was carried out blind What Hifi reviewers would scarcely be able to tell which was expensive and which was not. Modern amplifier distortion even in the budget class is inaudible.

I guess it depends what you classify as expensive and what's not. If you consider $500 not expensive then maybe, I don;t have enough knowledge or experience to argue on that front. But I recently made my entry into what I consider a good system by upgrading my complete setup from cheap parts to significantly better components (that bought used). The biggest difference came when I changed my (definitely not expensive) $90 amplifier for a used marantz. I could definitely hear the difference in a blind test, I bet ya I could tell 'em appart half deaf with earmuffs on.

That's what everyone says, but have you tried it?

I'm not fully on board with TrevC's position, because I think there are issues with the speaker/amp interaction such as tricky drops in impedence, etc. (although these might be conveniently covered by the proviso "competent" or "working within their limits"), but my brief tests lead me to believe that it's much harder than one might think.

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_1501104106582061]

It would be useless in this case, since the cheap amp generates a constant "humm". It's subtle but definitely present. I'd know which amp is connected as soon as it's turned on. I agree with you that there's always a sort of placebo effect whenever you spend lots of money (every person has their definition of "lots") on an upgrade, and that most people over exaggerate the audible difference; however the difference in this case was night and day. I upgraded my speakers, turntable and CD player, all of which brought some incremental improvements but substituting the amp brought a whole other level. In this specific case, going from a terrible amp to a good one the difference is definitely audible.

 

[TrevC]

It would be useless in this case, since the cheap amp generates a constant "humm". It's subtle but definitely present. I'd know which amp is connected as soon as it's turned on. I agree with you that there's always a sort of placebo effect whenever you spend lots of money (every person has their definition of "lots") on an upgrade, and that most people over exaggerate the audible difference; however the difference in this case was night and day. I upgraded my speakers, turntable and CD player, all of which brought some incremental improvements but substituting the amp brought a whole other level. In this specific case, going from a terrible amp to a good one the difference is definitely audible.

So you had a faulty amp. Buying a good budget amp is easy these days. Yamaha, Pioneer, Cambridge, etc. No humm.

 

[bigfish786]

Having bought hifi and home audio equipment for three decades now, I have experienced a steady increase in performance. Moving from Sony to Cambridge to arcam then moon and leema, I have heard improvements at every stage. Moving from mission to focal speakers made the biggest difference.

To me, I'm still playing at the budget end of hifi. My amp is the entry level and so is my CD player of those brands, so I'm sure there are improvements to come, as and when money allows.

Regarding speakers, I really don't know how far this can go? i paid a grand for the ones I have now, and I don't know what it would take to sound better than them?

 

[CnoEvil]

Regarding speakers, I really don't know how far this can go? i paid a grand for the ones I have now, and I don't know what it would take to sound better than them?

My personal rule of thumb is that you have to double the list price in order to get a worthwhile improvement.

 

[NSA_watch_my_toilet]

Regarding speakers, I really don't know how far this can go? i paid a grand for the ones I have now, and I don't know what it would take to sound better than them?

The best is to try those things out. Not a little bit. But frankly. If you go by a hifi shop, let's try out some different brand of speaker by different builders.

At my start in hifi, I had only a foggy idea of what I wanted. After the 6th tryout, it was already a little more defined. I could say that after my 12th run, I was around to understand what I judged to be really important in my own definition of a good sound. But II took my time to be sure of what I wanted and needed, and get exactly for that.