Thinking of upgrading Hegel H600 for Pass Labs X250.8

[Vortex]

Hi, I’ve been looking at possibly upgrading my Hegel H600 amplifier with a Pass Labs X250.8 and a Pass Labs one box Preamp like a XP-12 (or a used XP-10). I’ve been very happy with the Hegel H600 and it was everything I expected after owning the H590 before upgrading to the H600. I started with the H390 so I’m currently on my third Hegel. The Hegel H600 is extremely capable for a one box solution. They do seem to need a lot of running in from new and sounded significantly different after 60 or 70 hours of playing.

Before purchasing the Hegel H600 I was considering the Pass Labs INT250 but decided to go for the Hegel. The Pass Labs X250.8 power amp is a huge unit with a depth of 21.25 inches (width of 19 inches and 9 inches or so high) and weighs 45kg but I’ve worked out a way to install it in my system without it taking over the room. I’m thinking I almost need to run the 2 side by side for a period to see how the ‘upgrade’ compares? I’ve been a fan of Pass Labs for some time so this will hopefully be a completing piece for the system (for some time anyway!). The system also comprises of Kef Reference 3 Foundry Edition speakers (in piano black and copper) and a Marantz SA10 CD player.

Any thoughts views or opinions on this upgrade and is it worthwhile (I know it’s probably only me that could decide that after a number of months evaluation but you know what I mean).

Many thanks in advance

 

[GSV Ethics Gradient]

I'm pretty sure no-one here will have heard the Pass Labs gear. Obviously it's down to your own ears as you say, but spending that much on an amp I'd expect to be hearing a worthwhile difference immediately. If not, I'd conclude that what I was getting was different, rather than necessarily better.

Not sure you'll get a home demo as it looks like that might be an item that has to be ordered in, in which case I'd want a rock-solid path to returning it unless I was properly bowled over.

 

[Jasonovich]

Ethics is spot on, I haven't heard of the Pass Labs but thank you for prompting my curiosity. These are meaty beasts!
If space is still an issue, have you considered the integrated version of the amp?

 

[daytona600]

Audio legend Nelson Pass designed & built in the USA or Hegel made in china no contest
other Super Integrated amps to look at
Musical Fidelity Nu-Vista 800.2 , Technics SU-R1000 , Luxman L-509 ,
BonaWatt Triton , Mola Mola KULA

 

[Integralista]

Hi, Pass Labs amplifiers are a class act for sure. They just have different sound signature from Hegel. With Pass you feel and hear a warmer meaty majestic sound just like from vacum tubes. Hegel is different, more neutral, more slam, excelent bass. Before you make final decision, I recommend also to have a look on new Pre/Power combination from Hegel. Even new H 600 integrated is a clear step above H590, there is even larger improvement reached in Pre/Power combination of P30A and H30A is truly outstanding. I thing greatest improvemnt in their last generation of amps was reached in preamp P30A. It is a real masterpiece, comparable with more expensive competition. And stereo power amp has tremendous power, could easily be converted by user to monoblocks. BR.

 

[Vortex]

Ethics is spot on, I haven't heard of the Pass Labs but thank you for prompting my curiosity. These are meaty beasts!
If space is still an issue, have you considered the integrated version of the amp?
View attachment 9191

Thanks, looked at the integrated version a couple of years back. I’ve got the space for the preamp so that isn’t an issue. The integrated amplifier and the X250.8 power amplifier are the same size and I imagine at some point in the future I’ll try other preamps with it. My current set up has the room to accommodate the X250.8 size wise now - the cabinet will sit in the same position but the amplifier will just go further back towards the wall (all while sitting on the same platform that will extend back towards the wall to fully support).

 

[Vortex]

Audio legend Nelson Pass designed & built in the USA or Hegel made in china no contest
other Super Integrated amps to look at
Musical Fidelity Nu-Vista 800.2 , Technics SU-R1000 , Luxman L-509 ,
BonaWatt Triton , Mola Mola KULA

I was hoping the Hegel wasn’t made in China considering the price! Pass Labs has some legendary customer service behind them which is one of the attractions. Thanks for the other suggestions.

 

[Revolutions]

Pass Labs are great. If you want the thing, they do the thing in spades.

At the same time you can get great sound from other brands that are far smaller, far lighter & don’t moonlight as room heaters.

 

[MUSICRAFT]

I'm pretty sure no-one here will have heard the Pass Labs gear.

We used to stock Pass Labs and our demo/display units were INT-25, XA25 and a X250.8

 

[Revolutions]

K J West One in Marylebone have lots of Pass Labs amps in stock & listenable. Including their insane downstairs system, which boggles the mind with the size, cost & sound.

 

[MUSICRAFT]

Any thoughts views or opinions on this upgrade and is it worthwhile

Many thanks in advance

Funnily enough and fwiw, our first Kinki Studio Audio EX-M7 was sold when our client chose to substitute his H390 driving/powering his loudspeakers with an EX-M7. Our most recent EX-M7 sold (over a month ago) was sold when our client substituted his H190v, a H590 (loaner) and a H600 (loaner) to drive/power his B&W 804 D4's with an EX-M7. I hate to say it try as I might however Pass Labs amps struggled against the EX-M7 let alone EX-B7's.

As good as a H390, H190, H590, H600, INT-25, XA25 X.250.8 are however a EX-M7 at a UK RRP of £2850 surpasses them. And for not much more money at a UK RRP of £3750 a pair of EX-B7's are even better.

EX-M7 is a very serious amplifier and relative to many other components on the market for not much money.

 

[Vortex]

Hi, Pass Labs amplifiers are a class act for sure. They just have different sound signature from Hegel. With Pass you feel and hear a warmer meaty majestic sound just like from vacum tubes. Hegel is different, more neutral, more slam, excelent bass. Before you make final decision, I recommend also to have a look on new Pre/Power combination from Hegel. Even new H 600 integrated is a clear step above H590, there is even larger improvement reached in Pre/Power combination of P30A and H30A is truly outstanding. I thing greatest improvemnt in their last generation of amps was reached in preamp P30A. It is a real masterpiece, comparable with more expensive competition. And stereo power amp has tremendous power, could easily be converted by user to monoblocks. BR.

Appreciate the insight on sound quality / potential differences. Hadn’t thought about looking at the H30A Hegel etc. it looks like the measurement on the depth of the H30A is 25 inches deep which seems ridiculous (or wrong in their specs - the Pass Labs is 21.25 inches deep which is unusually deep but this is even bigger).

 

[Vortex]

Funnily enough and fwiw, our first Kinki Studio Audio EX-M7 was sold when our client chose to substitute his H390 driving/powering his loudspeakers with an EX-M7. Our most recent EX-M7 sold (over a month ago) was sold when our client substituted his H190v, a H590 (loaner) and a H600 (loaner) to drive/power his B&W 804 D4's with an EX-M7. I hate to say it try as I might however Pass Labs amps struggled against the EX-M7 let alone EX-B7's.

As good as a H390, H190, H590, H600, INT-25, XA25 X.250.8 are however a EX-M7 at a UK RRP of £2850 surpasses them. And for not much more money at a UK RRP of £3750 a pair of EX-B7's are even better.

EX-M7 is a very serious amplifier and relative to many other components on the market for not much money.

Sounds interesting and worth a listening test. I’m slightly hesitant as I see them listed through Aliexpress when do a search for the brand. Makes me question where they are made and build quality, I’m very conscious about build quality in high current draw equipment in the house as I don’t want anything that can start a fire (more peace of mind). I’ve had a contractors extension lead weld themselves together when a screw clamp / connection came loose in a 3 pin plug. As I’m sure you know high power soon turns into an ARC welder.

 

[Vortex]

Pass Labs are great. If you want the thing, they do the thing in spades.

At the same time you can get great sound from other brands that are far smaller, far lighter & don’t moonlight as room heaters.

Good point, I’ve heard a number of comments about them heating up rooms with their higher levels of heat generation.

 

[Vortex]

K J West One in Marylebone have lots of Pass Labs amps in stock & listenable. Including their insane downstairs system, which boggles the mind with the size, cost & sound.

Sounds good, I’ll look to go along for a listen. Sometimes you set out to buy one thing and end up with something else. I’ll try and avoid their downstairs system as I can well imagine it will be exceptionally good with a price tag to match!

 

[jjbomber]

Audio legend Nelson Pass designed & built in the USA or Hegel made in china no contest

China every time. Harder working, dedicated workers in state of the art, new factories.

 

[Vortex]

China every time. Harder working, dedicated workers in state of the art, new factories.

Did make me laugh 😆

If you’re right we are all in trouble.

 

[MUSICRAFT]

Sounds interesting and worth a listening test. I’m slightly hesitant as I see them listed through Aliexpress when do a search for the brand. Makes me question where they are made and build quality, I’m very conscious about build quality in high current draw equipment in the house as I don’t want anything that can start a fire (more peace of mind). I’ve had a contractors extension lead weld themselves together when a screw clamp / connection came loose in a 3 pin plug. As I’m sure you know high power soon turns into an ARC welder.

As far as I am aware Kinki Studio manufacture their products in their own facilities. They use quality parts and the overall level of build, fit and finishing is superior to offerings by Hegel and Pass Labs. We've had and extensively used an EX-M1+, EX-M7 and EX-B7's in store and used an EX-M7 on and off at home over the last four years without any issue.

Fwiw, here's a pic. showing the internals of an EX-M7 -

 

[nopiano]

Pass Labs user here, though very much at the modest end of their power amp range. That said, if you read Stereophile and a few other reviews, there is quite a consensus that the simpler design of the XA25 that I own may actually sound better than the beefier models, as long as you don’t need 250wpc.

Glorious as Pass is, I really wonder what is lacking with a H600. Even a H390 for 99% of the time. They’re very decent amps, often used by KEF at demos (and Harbeth, fwiw).

Frankly, I think you’re pretty much at the zenith of realistic home listening already, so all you’re doing is trading different flavours to satisfy your curiosity. No harm in that - I bought my Pass to power my Sonus fabers, themselves an unexpected find almost unused after a decade. The sensible money would have been on ATC Actives, whichever size and look floats your boat!

Rather than blow another ten grand plus on an amp, try some speakers, like SCM50A or 100A, in stand or tower versions. Take your pick of veneers and finishes. Or stick to the Hegel and try some KEF Blade 2 at home. Just a couple of alternative ideas to ponder!

SCM50SLT - ATC Loudspeakers

Overview The SCM50 ASLT (active) and SCM50 PSLT (passive) towers are designed to offer exceptional performance and enjoyment to the home hi-fi enthusiast and music lover. The monitors' ability to reproduce music and speech with phenomenal accuracy, transparency and dynamics lies mainly in the...

atc.audio

https://www.whathifi.com/reviews/kef-blade-two-meta

 

[davidf]

Did make me laugh 😆

If you’re right we are all in trouble.

We are.

 

[davidf]

I'd take a few "statements" in this thread with a pinch of salt - if I was throwing around these wild claims about stuff I sold, people would be saying, "well you would say that because you sell it?"
Amazing the double standards sometimes.

 

[RoA]

Pass Labs user here, though very much at the modest end of their power amp range. That said, if you read Stereophile and a few other reviews, there is quite a consensus that the simpler design of the XA25 that I own may actually sound better than the beefier models, as long as you don’t need 250wpc.

Glorious as Pass is, I really wonder what is lacking with a H600. Even a H390 for 99% of the time. They’re very decent amps, often used by KEF at demos (and Harbeth, fwiw).

Frankly, I think you’re pretty much at the zenith of realistic home listening already, so all you’re doing is trading different flavours to satisfy your curiosity. No harm in that - I bought my Pass to power my Sonus fabers, themselves an unexpected find almost unused after a decade. The sensible money would have been on ATC Actives, whichever size and look floats your boat!

Rather than blow another ten grand plus on an amp, try some speakers, like SCM50A or 100A, in stand or tower versions. Take your pick of veneers and finishes. Or stick to the Hegel and try some KEF Blade 2 at home. Just a couple of alternative ideas to ponder!

SCM50SLT - ATC Loudspeakers

Overview The SCM50 ASLT (active) and SCM50 PSLT (passive) towers are designed to offer exceptional performance and enjoyment to the home hi-fi enthusiast and music lover. The monitors' ability to reproduce music and speech with phenomenal accuracy, transparency and dynamics lies mainly in the...

atc.audio

https://www.whathifi.com/reviews/kef-blade-two-meta

Agree, change for change's sake but if it gives the OP satisfaction who are we to argue.

 

[davidf]

Pass Labs user here, though very much at the modest end of their power amp range. That said, if you read Stereophile and a few other reviews, there is quite a consensus that the simpler design of the XA25 that I own may actually sound better than the beefier models, as long as you don’t need 250wpc.

Glorious as Pass is, I really wonder what is lacking with a H600. Even a H390 for 99% of the time. They’re very decent amps, often used by KEF at demos (and Harbeth, fwiw).

Frankly, I think you’re pretty much at the zenith of realistic home listening already, so all you’re doing is trading different flavours to satisfy your curiosity. No harm in that - I bought my Pass to power my Sonus fabers, themselves an unexpected find almost unused after a decade. The sensible money would have been on ATC Actives, whichever size and look floats your boat!

Rather than blow another ten grand plus on an amp, try some speakers, like SCM50A or 100A, in stand or tower versions. Take your pick of veneers and finishes. Or stick to the Hegel and try some KEF Blade 2 at home. Just a couple of alternative ideas to ponder!

SCM50SLT - ATC Loudspeakers

Overview The SCM50 ASLT (active) and SCM50 PSLT (passive) towers are designed to offer exceptional performance and enjoyment to the home hi-fi enthusiast and music lover. The monitors' ability to reproduce music and speech with phenomenal accuracy, transparency and dynamics lies mainly in the...

atc.audio

https://www.whathifi.com/reviews/kef-blade-two-meta

Agreed. To me it looks as though the OP has already made up his mind to change, but I'm not sure he realises just how good the amp is that he has got. I doubt any other amp in its price range can double its output down to 2ohms and remain stable, and with such a high damping factor. It will literally drive anything. KEF are a very discerning company, and aren't a company who would choose an amp just because 'it sounds nice'. I'm currently using one to drive a pair of Eggleston Works Kiva 2s (KEF Blade territory).

He could spend spend less than half that on the new Hegel DAC, plumb it in via the DAC loop and improve the sound of his system without even playing anything through it! Sounds crazy? Yup, but it works. And it's a better DAC to boot.

 

[Vortex]

Those who are questioning the need to change may be right. The Hegel H600 is an outstanding sounding amplifier and if I’m not careful I have the risk of going backwards in terms of sound quality / system synergy. Currently it sounds fantastic so I may need to pause and think this through. I have a friend who is a session and touring musician and describes the system as ‘you’ve basically got a studio monitoring system in your lounge’ and says he can’t recall hearing anything better in any studio.

The system has managed to overcome the fact that the layout of the room means the speakers are slightly too far apart (to the point where you’d never know that by listening to it).

Another suggestion from someone was to look at Benchmark HPA4 and 2 x AHB2 power amplifiers. Not looked any further at that suggestion yet.

 

[Jasonovich]

Iyagi son has always spoken highly of the brand. If I owned Hegel H600, though it's unlikely I want or have the capacity to cough up £10.5K for it 🙂, I would close shop, it's difficult to surpass this Norwegian gem of an amp which is near perfect.
It's replacement has to turn water into wine and sing like the Angels.

View: https://youtu.be/Xk13XzfWSZ0?si=l2c8eRNBqR_7mGWa