Freddy58 said:davedotco said:
Well, if one is 'loaded'
I was a dealer, which helped.
A lot......!
I was a dealer, which helped.
A lot......!
This afternoon I had the pleasure of demoing two TTs at a central London dealer.
This is the context. The amplification was provided by a Devialet 170, and speakerage was a pair of Martin Logan Montis. This is identical to my home system. So I know what this system is capable of with a digital source.
The Devialet has an internal phono stage which is digital, i.e. the input from the TT goes through the Devialet’s high-spec ADC, and the phono gain is applied through DSP. The DSP can be configured differently for MM and MC cartridges. Analog purists will throw a fit about converting an analog signal to digital, but since pretty much all the music we listen to these days is recorded digitally anyway, I don’t see what the fuss is about.
Let’s talk cost, by which I mean the relative cost for me of going analog. I’d have no need of a separate phono stage, which is good. Equally, I have no need of a DAC, as the Devialet has its own DAC. At home my digital ‘front end’ consists of a Synology NAS connected to the Dev via USB. The NAS cost me £300, including 4TB of memory. So for my purposes we have a competition between a digital front end costing £300 and a vinyl front end costing … (see below).
Oh, the music was:
Beethoven, Symphony No. 7, Kleiber/Vienna Phil (DG)
Brahms, Sonata for Violin and Piano No 1 in G Major, Op. 78, Steinberg/Abel (Wilson Audiophile)
Dave Brubeck Quartet, Take Five (Vinyl Lovers, 180g pressing)
For me the Beethoven was the most interesting, as I know this recording like the back of my hand. It would have been revealing to do a direct vinyl vs. digital comparison, but that wasn’t possible.
Linn Sondek LP12 / Pro-ject Carbon arm / Linn Adikt cartridge
This is the standard Linn Majik LP12 package and it costs £2,700. Like any TT package it’s almost infinitely upgradable, assuming your pockets are deep enough.
I found the Linn to have a pleasing tonality. On the whole, instruments came across well, e.g. a good, smooth rendition of cymbals. At moderate levels strings came across as ‘creamy’, even slightly gooey, but at high volumes there was some evidence of distortion.
The Linn managed quiet passages with delicacy, despite a relatively high (and obviously audible) noise floor. Transients were a bit sluggish; the articulation was simply not as good as my home digital system. Piano lacked attack. The overall impression was pleasant enough; a rich and warm sound -- but it lacked the dramatic feeling of presence that I know the Devialet and MLs are capable of conveying.
Partly this may have been due to an obviously rolled off top end. The bottom end was also a mixture of good and bad. Bass was thunderous and tuneful, but a bit bloated.
Stereo separation and depth of soundstage weren’t great with orchestral or small-scale stuff.
Overall the performance was markedly poorer than my digital system.
SME 20 Mk 3 A / SME Series V arm / Koetsu Black cartridge
It was immediately obvious how much more precise and accurate the presentation of the SME was. I had a lot of fun listening to this system. There seemed to be a great synergy between the three elements: SME, Devialet, and Martin Logan.
Separation was far superior to the Linn; it was really very good and approaching the stability and solidity of digital, with one irritating exception. Bass was decidedly monophonic: in the Beethoven the double basses (at least for most of their register) were dead centre stage, which is just wrong. A hint of the upper register of the basses was in the right place, however, and overall this created a somewhat confusing and vague impression.
As with the Linn, the treble was rolled off and the mid-range was very forward. Piano still lacked a bit of attack, and overall the presentation still lacked the presence and crispness of digital.
Dynamic range was good, though a tad inhibited. Quiet passages were done nicely, though not with the full delicacy of which the Devialet/ML combo is capable. Loud passages didn’t hit with the same gut-pounding force as I’m used to.
The SME’s noise floor was much lower than the Linn’s, though still not inaudible.
I can’t help noting that the SME set up costs just shy of £10K, and including the Devialet and MLs the system was £26K’s worth of kit (not including cables!). I’d expect more from an outlay of £26K. And there's the rub. If I put the £10K cost of the SME towards my speaker budget, I could afford some of the best speakers in the world.
So whilst I enjoyed listening to the SME, I can't see that it would make sense, unless money were absolutely no object.
This is the context. The amplification was provided by a Devialet 170, and speakerage was a pair of Martin Logan Montis. This is identical to my home system. So I know what this system is capable of with a digital source.
The Devialet has an internal phono stage which is digital, i.e. the input from the TT goes through the Devialet’s high-spec ADC, and the phono gain is applied through DSP. The DSP can be configured differently for MM and MC cartridges. Analog purists will throw a fit about converting an analog signal to digital, but since pretty much all the music we listen to these days is recorded digitally anyway, I don’t see what the fuss is about.
Let’s talk cost, by which I mean the relative cost for me of going analog. I’d have no need of a separate phono stage, which is good. Equally, I have no need of a DAC, as the Devialet has its own DAC. At home my digital ‘front end’ consists of a Synology NAS connected to the Dev via USB. The NAS cost me £300, including 4TB of memory. So for my purposes we have a competition between a digital front end costing £300 and a vinyl front end costing … (see below).
Oh, the music was:
Beethoven, Symphony No. 7, Kleiber/Vienna Phil (DG)
Brahms, Sonata for Violin and Piano No 1 in G Major, Op. 78, Steinberg/Abel (Wilson Audiophile)
Dave Brubeck Quartet, Take Five (Vinyl Lovers, 180g pressing)
For me the Beethoven was the most interesting, as I know this recording like the back of my hand. It would have been revealing to do a direct vinyl vs. digital comparison, but that wasn’t possible.
Linn Sondek LP12 / Pro-ject Carbon arm / Linn Adikt cartridge
This is the standard Linn Majik LP12 package and it costs £2,700. Like any TT package it’s almost infinitely upgradable, assuming your pockets are deep enough.
I found the Linn to have a pleasing tonality. On the whole, instruments came across well, e.g. a good, smooth rendition of cymbals. At moderate levels strings came across as ‘creamy’, even slightly gooey, but at high volumes there was some evidence of distortion.
The Linn managed quiet passages with delicacy, despite a relatively high (and obviously audible) noise floor. Transients were a bit sluggish; the articulation was simply not as good as my home digital system. Piano lacked attack. The overall impression was pleasant enough; a rich and warm sound -- but it lacked the dramatic feeling of presence that I know the Devialet and MLs are capable of conveying.
Partly this may have been due to an obviously rolled off top end. The bottom end was also a mixture of good and bad. Bass was thunderous and tuneful, but a bit bloated.
Stereo separation and depth of soundstage weren’t great with orchestral or small-scale stuff.
Overall the performance was markedly poorer than my digital system.
SME 20 Mk 3 A / SME Series V arm / Koetsu Black cartridge
It was immediately obvious how much more precise and accurate the presentation of the SME was. I had a lot of fun listening to this system. There seemed to be a great synergy between the three elements: SME, Devialet, and Martin Logan.
Separation was far superior to the Linn; it was really very good and approaching the stability and solidity of digital, with one irritating exception. Bass was decidedly monophonic: in the Beethoven the double basses (at least for most of their register) were dead centre stage, which is just wrong. A hint of the upper register of the basses was in the right place, however, and overall this created a somewhat confusing and vague impression.
As with the Linn, the treble was rolled off and the mid-range was very forward. Piano still lacked a bit of attack, and overall the presentation still lacked the presence and crispness of digital.
Dynamic range was good, though a tad inhibited. Quiet passages were done nicely, though not with the full delicacy of which the Devialet/ML combo is capable. Loud passages didn’t hit with the same gut-pounding force as I’m used to.
The SME’s noise floor was much lower than the Linn’s, though still not inaudible.
I can’t help noting that the SME set up costs just shy of £10K, and including the Devialet and MLs the system was £26K’s worth of kit (not including cables!). I’d expect more from an outlay of £26K. And there's the rub. If I put the £10K cost of the SME towards my speaker budget, I could afford some of the best speakers in the world.
So whilst I enjoyed listening to the SME, I can't see that it would make sense, unless money were absolutely no object.
ifor
Well-known member
I'm getting a Michell Orbe on home demo next Tuesday. It'll be a more realistic test: although the demo yesterday was with exactly the kit I use at home, a dealer demo is never qiute the same as a home demo.
Based on price alone, the Orbe should be somewhere between the Majik LP12 and the SME 20.
Matt
Based on price alone, the Orbe should be somewhere between the Majik LP12 and the SME 20.
Matt
bigfish786
Moderator
for any people interested in a much lower priced TT there are now a few Rega RP3 and RP6 on the auction website,and some dealers! the ones with great reductions for "minor" cosmetic marks.
its making me consider them both...
e.g Rega rRP3 from Moorgate acoustics, at £349, but if you become a member of their website you get a further 10% off... making it £323. an awesome price.
its making me consider them both...
e.g Rega rRP3 from Moorgate acoustics, at £349, but if you become a member of their website you get a further 10% off... making it £323. an awesome price.
ifor
Well-known member
The Michell Orbe SE is now set up at home. It has the Tecno Arm and a Sumiko Blackbird cartridge.
First impressions are very positive.
Matt
First impressions are very positive.
Matt
Thanks for the tip.
I was told it was pretty forward, but I do like 'forward', so I reckon the dealer's made a good choice there.
Anyway, sounding very good ATM, but I've yet to try out any difficult classical stuff.
Matt
I was told it was pretty forward, but I do like 'forward', so I reckon the dealer's made a good choice there.
Anyway, sounding very good ATM, but I've yet to try out any difficult classical stuff.
Matt
iceman16
Well-known member
Hi matt
I used to have the Gyro se with techno arm(denon 103r cart).. with my prev. naim set couple of years ago. IME.. cartridges and arm makes a lot of difference and proper setting of the TT itself. I have heard them both (orbe se/ gyro se) and i prefer the gyro se with sme IV than orbe se with technoarm. I would also recommend some platter mats like origin live or isoplatmat..>)
I used to have the Gyro se with techno arm(denon 103r cart).. with my prev. naim set couple of years ago. IME.. cartridges and arm makes a lot of difference and proper setting of the TT itself. I have heard them both (orbe se/ gyro se) and i prefer the gyro se with sme IV than orbe se with technoarm. I would also recommend some platter mats like origin live or isoplatmat..>)
stevebrock said:
iceman16 said:
Thanks, Iceman and Steve!
Plenty of options to consider before I get close to a purchase (assuming I decide to go down the TT route at all).
Matt
I have to say that after today my mind’s certainly much more open to the idea of returning to vinyl. This Michell deck is really very impressive, and if I decide to return to vinyl, I could well imagine living with it, though I know there are seemingly countless other options/permutations.
The TT was set up for me at home by my local dealer. I decided to have a go at doing the phono stage settings myself. All it took was a quick look at the Sumiko website, a moment’s thought and two minutes to enter the details in the Devialet configurator. Then I was up and running.
The dealer did say that I should disregard the rule book and just play around with the configurator until I found a sound I liked. But my first stab at it sounded excellent and I stuck with that all afternoon. I might fiddle later in the week.
The deck seems technically excellent. The noise floor is right down in the basement. No earthing problems. It makes light of clicks and pops, which are certainly not annoying on rock/pop tracks, though more noticeable with classical music. I heard some evidence of distortion towards the end of some LPs, but that’s a generic fault of the medium, not of this particular deck.
I’ve listened to a few LPs straight through, a mix of rock/pop and classical. In general I'm hearing great delicacy and very true tonality. Vocals are nice and full. The music has good rhythmic bounce. Dynamics are suitably exciting. Separation and soundstaging are excellent. All good. I felt last week that the Majik and (less so) the SME were shown up by the rest of the system. I wouldn’t say that about the Michell. Same equipment (Devialet 170 + Martin Logan Montis) -- perhaps this TT set-up is more to my taste, or maybe being at home made a difference.
Also I’ve run some side-by-side comparisons of the same music on LP and ALAC from my NAS drive. This is a bit tricky because of level matching and the variable quality of pressings/mastering.
Where I’ve been able to do fair comparisons, I’ve felt that the TT has slightly less well defined transients and a slight lack of bass punch. Digital sounds more toppish, but using the Devialet’s tone controls, I can get the top end to sound just like the TT by taking off 1dB of treble.
With some recordings, especially rock/pop, vinyl produces a “wetter” mix. By contrast, digital sounds rather "dry". I don’t mean edgy or rasping; I mean slightly flat and hollow, lacking body. But with well recorded classical music I’m finding that the scales tip in the opposite direction: digital sounds transparent and precise, vinyl sounds a bit smudged and slow. This may be the old “vinyl adds extra reverb” thing.
All in all, a great result. I’m looking forward to a few more days of listening, when work allows.
:cheers:
Matt
The TT was set up for me at home by my local dealer. I decided to have a go at doing the phono stage settings myself. All it took was a quick look at the Sumiko website, a moment’s thought and two minutes to enter the details in the Devialet configurator. Then I was up and running.
The dealer did say that I should disregard the rule book and just play around with the configurator until I found a sound I liked. But my first stab at it sounded excellent and I stuck with that all afternoon. I might fiddle later in the week.
The deck seems technically excellent. The noise floor is right down in the basement. No earthing problems. It makes light of clicks and pops, which are certainly not annoying on rock/pop tracks, though more noticeable with classical music. I heard some evidence of distortion towards the end of some LPs, but that’s a generic fault of the medium, not of this particular deck.
I’ve listened to a few LPs straight through, a mix of rock/pop and classical. In general I'm hearing great delicacy and very true tonality. Vocals are nice and full. The music has good rhythmic bounce. Dynamics are suitably exciting. Separation and soundstaging are excellent. All good. I felt last week that the Majik and (less so) the SME were shown up by the rest of the system. I wouldn’t say that about the Michell. Same equipment (Devialet 170 + Martin Logan Montis) -- perhaps this TT set-up is more to my taste, or maybe being at home made a difference.
Also I’ve run some side-by-side comparisons of the same music on LP and ALAC from my NAS drive. This is a bit tricky because of level matching and the variable quality of pressings/mastering.
Where I’ve been able to do fair comparisons, I’ve felt that the TT has slightly less well defined transients and a slight lack of bass punch. Digital sounds more toppish, but using the Devialet’s tone controls, I can get the top end to sound just like the TT by taking off 1dB of treble.
With some recordings, especially rock/pop, vinyl produces a “wetter” mix. By contrast, digital sounds rather "dry". I don’t mean edgy or rasping; I mean slightly flat and hollow, lacking body. But with well recorded classical music I’m finding that the scales tip in the opposite direction: digital sounds transparent and precise, vinyl sounds a bit smudged and slow. This may be the old “vinyl adds extra reverb” thing.
All in all, a great result. I’m looking forward to a few more days of listening, when work allows.
:cheers:
Matt
matt49 said:
Get your dealer to bolt one on , of course that is, if he is a SME dealer.
Until then I'm saying nuffin
Though my experiences with these players is from quite a few years back, I found the Orb to be far better than the Gyro, though I recall a power supply upgrade that uped the standard of the Gyro somewhat.
Good mechanical engineering is expensive, so worthwhile improvements are never cheap. You have what is virtually entry level for an Orb setup, I have no doubt that a better arm and cartridge would lift the bar considerably.
Eye wateringly expensive these days, a Series V and a nice cartridge start at about £5k......... :O
Good mechanical engineering is expensive, so worthwhile improvements are never cheap. You have what is virtually entry level for an Orb setup, I have no doubt that a better arm and cartridge would lift the bar considerably.
Eye wateringly expensive these days, a Series V and a nice cartridge start at about £5k......... :O
Hi-FiOutlaw
Well-known member
Hi Matt,
i'm following this thread since the begining and with your budget I'll not snoop in TT options, but I find it hard to belive that no one mentioned you to try a external phono stage, i know that the Devialet is an amazing amp, but it is a all digital amp, and with vinyl i think that you'll need a nice phono stage to get the best of those expencive TT.
keep writing...
:cheers:
i'm following this thread since the begining and with your budget I'll not snoop in TT options, but I find it hard to belive that no one mentioned you to try a external phono stage, i know that the Devialet is an amazing amp, but it is a all digital amp, and with vinyl i think that you'll need a nice phono stage to get the best of those expencive TT.
keep writing...
:cheers:
Hi-FiOutlaw said:Hi Matt,
i'm following this thread since the begining and with your budget I'll not snoop in TT options, but I find it hard to belive that no one mentioned you to try a external phono stage, i know that the Devialet is an amazing amp, but it is a all digital amp, and with vinyl i think that you'll need a nice phono stage to get the best of those expencive TT.
keep writing...
:cheers:
Any recent cutting will have a number of digital stages in its production. Why the concern about digital processing in its playback?
Hi-FiOutlaw said:
Because at this point in Matts excercise its bloody pointless chucking extra bangers on the barbie
.Hi-FiOutlaw
Well-known member
andyjm said:Hi-FiOutlaw said:Hi Matt,
i'm following this thread since the begining and with your budget I'll not snoop in TT options, but I find it hard to belive that no one mentioned you to try a external phono stage, i know that the Devialet is an amazing amp, but it is a all digital amp, and with vinyl i think that you'll need a nice phono stage to get the best of those expencive TT.
keep writing...
:cheers:
Any recent cutting will have a number of digital stages in its production. Why the concern about digital processing in its playback?
why not having that concern?
Hi-FiOutlaw
Well-known member
floyd droid said:Hi-FiOutlaw said:
Because at this point in Matts excercise its bloody pointless chucking extra bangers on the barbie
at this point it makes every sence, before spending the money, maybe a TT that don't sound so great with Devialet phono stadge, might sound very good with an external one... Just saing... :roll:
There is no right or rong, just try and listen, it's free!
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