Reading a spinning disc

[Superaintit]

Ashley James:tractorboy:Ashley James:

If iTunes is counter intuitive for anyone, they need help IMO.
Ash

Well, maybe one day we will be able to discuss this face to face. I wonder if you will be so curt then.

Of course I will. I am blunt but good natured and harmless! Even when dealing with anachrofiles!

Thank you for posting on this thread, Ashley. You just made my day. IMHO wonderfully informative and humorous too.

 

[JoelSim]

Ashley James:noble:
For the sake of discussion I could say that if I had a working cd player and a clean cd it is much more probable that I will be able to listen to some music compared to having to turn on a PC and a million things could go wrong.

The other day i hooked up a fairly new netbook to my new amp to have a look at its performance as an audio source and for some reason I didn't even care to find out media player cought itself on a loop repeating the last 2 seconds of a track. That was in like 5 minutes of music playback. I switched it off immediately.

Also I would be very skeptical having my music solely on a hard disk which could at any point fail completely leaving me with zero bits of data.

Bottom line for me is the ideal is to have both a CD and a PC for use as an audio source. As I like to have a gaming console and a dvd player. All have their reasons for existence imho

None of that sounds remotely logical to me!I have an apple TV, a Mac Mini, a Macbook Pro plus some Airport Express and two hi fi systems at home. Usually I use the Apple TV which is instant but the others are very fast and silent. None have given a moments trouble ever. I wouldn't prat about with an obsolete old CD player ever again, but mine is a fully fledged media system with movies, thousands of radio stations, some TV, all my photos etc. Everything all instant and from an IR handset.At work I have a 20" iMac and a stinking Dell. I hate Windows and am sure it is the reason why people can't understand how computers can be so much better for hi fi.AshPS. Everything automatically backs up every hour or so to another HD on the network and everything on the Apple TV is duplicated on the Macbook Pro. And I have a mobile me account so can use my computer on any computer anywhere. I have a Touch too that also syncs with the system too. You can keep your old legacy stuff, this is miles better.

I myself will purchase a whole system such as this as soon as it will do my ironing and wash the dishes, and therefore give me the time needed to rip music etc.

And I'm not a technophobe either as I use a Dell all day at work and have 2 Macbooks at home etc

ÿ

ÿ

 

[Anonymous]

Anyway....

Let me wrench this one back on topic, with some summary questions:

Can anyone confirm how many passes does yer average CD player makes when reading a disk? Any advances on Ash's one pass?

Is the error correction that CD players perform really fundamentally different from that which a ripping program undertakes?

Can anyone post a link to a comparative analysis of the the optical output from a decent dedicated CD transport vs a computer?

 

[Anonymous]

Ashley James:noble:

For the sake of discussion I could say that if I had a working cd player and a clean cd it is much more probable that I will be able to listen to some music compared to having to turn on a PC and a million things could go wrong.

The other day i hooked up a fairly new netbook to my new amp to have a look at its performance as an audio source and for some reason I didn't even care to find out media player cought itself on a loop repeating the last 2 seconds of a track. That was in like 5 minutes of music playback. I switched it off immediately.

Also I would be very skeptical having my music solely on a hard disk which could at any point fail completely leaving me with zero bits of data.

Bottom line for me is the ideal is to have both a CD and a PC for use as an audio source. As I like to have a gaming console and a dvd player. All have their reasons for existence imho

None of that sounds remotely logical to me! I have an apple TV, a Mac Mini, a Macbook Pro plus some Airport Express and two hi fi systems at home. Usually I use the Apple TV which is instant but the others are very fast and silent. None have given a moments trouble ever. I wouldn't prat about with an obsolete old CD player ever again, but mine is a fully fledged media system with movies, thousands of radio stations, some TV, all my photos etc. Everything all instant and from an IR handset. At work I have a 20" iMac and a stinking Dell. I hate Windows and am sure it is the reason why people can't understand how computers can be so much better for hi fi. Ash PS. Everything automatically backs up every hour or so to another HD on the network and everything on the Apple TV is duplicated on the Macbook Pro. And I have a mobile me account so can use my computer on any computer anywhere. I have a Touch too that also syncs with the system too. You can keep your old legacy stuff, this is miles better.

Well I'm talking about windows, which is something I have experience with. I'm sure apple has better software implementation but in terms of hardware its the same as any other DIY or not PC so equal failure rates could apply.

Anyhow all the things you are talking about require much more involvement than just having cds and a cd player.

As stated by someone elsewhere, some may have, just as you have apple stuff, a cd player fully working for 10+ years.

I'm just trying to say that maybe having some equipment specifically designed for a certain purpose may not be obsolete or legacy as you may call it. Maybe in terms of an audio source it is but I'm sure this doesn't apply to everything.

It's nice to have a camera that just takes pictures or a phone that can just phone you know and dont have to do a million things together. I mean how good is a mobile phone in taking pictures or as an mp3 player or as an organiser or as an e-mail client ?

Surely apple + dac is the way to go have no experience but won't argue. Surely isn't a 300 quid solution though now is it ?

 

[Messiah]

tractorboy:Tarquinh:The cd player starts the moment you hit the play button. It doesn't buffer at all, let alone for 60 minutes - would you accept a wait of that long?

Sorry, maybe I still haven't made myself clear...

My computer reads a disk with 100 accuracy in 20 minutes. There is NO perceptible buffer time. It is not designed first and foremost for audio disks.

My CD player has 60 minutes to read the same disk. It is designed purely for audio disks.

This leads me to suspect that it is reasonable to expect the CD player to extract with similar accuracy.

Hopefully I can answer your question:

Regardless of buffers or not a CD reads and plays in real time and the CD spins at 1 set speed.

When a PC rips the disc it spins the CD faster to enable the rip to be done in a shorter time than the length of the CD. When this is going on you also have the error correction working.

I hope this is what you were getting at!

 

[Anonymous]

An Apple TV sounds pretty good on it's own and costs £200. it works with iTunes in you computer and everyone who comes here wondering what one is for loves it. They can be three or eighty three and they still quickly learn how to use it and love it.

I wasn't sure I wanted one so waited till they were selling them for £135 from the refurb store. Once I'd got it I was smitten and when I had the chance of another, I bought it too, then my bloody son pinched it! He loves it too, but he would wouldn't he because it was free!!

Then I had the chance of a second hand Mini, so I bought it and sent it to Marclroft Computers for Andy to put a 320 Gig HD in it. I've got it connected to my Panasonic TV (Sony isn't as good!) with Movies etc in it so I can watch the BBC iPlayer from time to time or stream Movies from Jaman, or just make daft posts to a lot of old stick in the muds who need to leap into the 21 st Century and enjoy themselves more.

It's all great fun, but I did take time out earlier to remove the crankshaft from a 1951 Bentley engine I'm rebuilding.

Ash

 

[JoelSim]

Ashley James:An Apple TV sounds pretty good on it's own and costs £200. it works with iTunes in you computer and everyone who comes here wondering what one is for loves it. They can be three or eighty three and they still quickly learn how to use it and love it.I wasn't sure I wanted one so waited till they were selling them for £135 from the refurb store. Once I'd got it I was smitten and when I had the chance of another, I bought it too, then my bloody son pinched it! He loves it too, but he would wouldn't he because it was free!!Then I had the chance of a second hand Mini, so I bought it and sent it to Marclroft Computers for Andy to put a 320 Gig HD in it. I've got it connected to my Panasonic TV (Sony isn't as good!) with Movies etc in it so I can watch the BBC iPlayer from time to time or stream Movies from Jaman, or just make daft posts to a lot of old stick in the muds who need to leap into the 21 st Century and enjoy themselves more.It's all great fun, but I did take time out earlier to remove the crankshaft from a 1951 Bentley engine I'm rebuilding.Ash

A 1951 Bentley? You wanna get yourself a GWhiz Ashley and move into the 21st century.

ÿ

 

[chebby]

Ashley also drives a Bristol....
http://www.kda132.com/jel450/index.html

 

[Anonymous]

Ash -- difficult to tell the best TV's apart now in my opinion, especially when they're all given a 24p feed. Though I must admit, as a fellow Panasonic owner, I am very impressed with the new Sony's having stood watching one the other day. My PZ70 has some motion issues, though really only when I'm watching for it.

Noble - the comment re different machines for different purposes - each to their own I guess but my Windows setup streams bit perfect music to my DAC and I can then go and watch a bluray if I wish. Admit that I'm not getting dolby true HD, I've not much interest in the surround sound thing and sold off my cinema kit, but I love BluRay for the crisp image and am happy chucking out a stereo signal at 16 or 24bits.

 

[Anonymous]

Messiah:Hopefully I can answer your question:
Regardless of buffers or not a CD reads and plays in real time and the CD spins at 1 set speed.

When a PC rips the disc it spins the CD faster to enable the rip to be done in a shorter time than the length of the CD. When this is going on you also have the error correction working.

I hope this is what you were getting at!

Thanks, I guess on reflection one of my points is that if a cheapo computer can read a CD more effectively than a pricey CD player then the CD player manufacturers need a kick up the backside.

Note the "if" in that last sentence - that is my other point.

 

[Craig M.]

on either benchmark media's website or on headfi(?) where one of their engineers posts, they reckon most good quality cdp's are capable of a bit perfect stream. they also point out good quality needn't mean expensive. so i guess it's as ash states, if the cdp and disc are in good nick you shouldn't hear a difference.

 

[Anonymous]

tractorboy:Messiah:Hopefully I can answer your question:
Regardless of buffers or not a CD reads and plays in real time and the CD spins at 1 set speed.

When a PC rips the disc it spins the CD faster to enable the rip to be done in a shorter time than the length of the CD. When this is going on you also have the error correction working.

I hope this is what you were getting at!

Thanks, I guess on reflection one of my points is that if a cheapo computer can read a CD more effectively than a pricey CD player then the CD player manufacturers need a kick up the backside.

Note the "if" in that last sentence - that is my other point.

Yes, but the cd player in the computer has all the resources of the computer to help it out. The CD player doesn't.

 

[nads]

tractorboy:

Thanks, I guess on reflection one of my points is that if a cheapo computer can read a CD more effectively than a pricey CD player then the CD player manufacturers need a kick up the backside.

Note the "if" in that last sentence - that is my other point.

I think you are missing the point of what is happening. a CDP does not read a CD it plays the "music" on the CD. A PC reads the DATA on a CD and this can be done at any speed as the end user (the computer) does not care what timescale it get it in. A PC will still play a CD in the same time as a CDP with different results to a good CDP .............

 

[The_Lhc]

tractorboy:Messiah:Hopefully I can answer your question:
Regardless of buffers or not a CD reads and plays in real time and the CD spins at 1 set speed.

When a PC rips the disc it spins the CD faster to enable the rip to be done in a shorter time than the length of the CD. When this is going on you also have the error correction working.

I hope this is what you were getting at!

Thanks, I guess on reflection one of my points is that if a cheapo computer can read a CD more effectively than a pricey CD player then the CD player manufacturers need a kick up the backside.

Note the "if" in that last sentence - that is my other point.

TractorBoy, the point you still seem to be missing and the flaw in your argument is that the PC won't start playing the ripped file until it's finished ripping it, ie it can buffer 100% of the track(s) and keep re-reading until it's got everything. You stated that your PC rips a CD in 20 minutes (why is it taking so long? My old P4 averages about 5 minutes per CD, in FLAC) but your CD player has 60 minutes to read the CD, thinking the CDP should have plenty of time to re-read but you're forgetting that the CD player has to start playing almost instantly, so it doesn't have a 60 minute buffer at all it has maybe a second or two, but no more than that. That's why it can only read the CD once (especially as it's spinning the CD at single-speed, the last CD-ROM drives were up to 54x spin speed, I don't know what DVD drives top out at but it'll be similar) and that's why they have to employ more error-correction, especially if the CD is in any way scratched or damaged.

 

[Anonymous]

Im gobsmacked that know one has yet to understand tractor boys point! Ill try and explain(not my strong point dyslexic u see) What the young farming man means is that if a laptop with a cheap and cheerfull dvd rw drive can read his cd's in one sweep at x3 speed's without the error correction meter thingy in eac kicking in why should he be worryd about a postively stoneage cdp (acording to some )making such a hash of reading the same disks to the point where their filled with distortion and sounding rubbish next to his flac files?

 

[Anonymous]

I think people are worried that the price of optical drives is low.

However, the difference between a CD player and a computer is in that the former reads the music in real time, and the latter treats the disc as data and rips it. They are fundamentally difference systems and not relevant to the cost of the drive.

How much do you think the drive in a CD or DVD player actually costs..? Even the "high end" use cheap, Korean DVD mechs, etc.

CD players are more expensive than computers not because they sound better but because they compete in an entirely different industry. The R&D, economies of scale and margins in each industry are polar opposites!

 

[Anonymous]

Quite apart from the enormous benefits of using something as versatile as a computer, provided it is silent and blends in well to your listening room, the real clincher for me is the uncertain nature of CD mechs, in fact all optical disc mechs. They are a bloody nuisance!

We've made nine different models of CD player since 1993, some of the first ones are still working and people like them, however subsequent models, especially after '97 have been all over the place. The '97 ones failed and failed and failed, Philips denied a problem and then announced that production had ceased and gave us some free spares, but not enough. It nearly Bankrupted us! Subsequent models (possibly two) were completely reliable, but suddenly replaced by another in '03 that has proved dreadful. The result is that we have huge stocks of pre 2003 mechs and none of the ones made after that. Once we realised there was another problem, we sold off the last few machines with spare mechs and stopped production. Others continued and have had endless problems and I hear about them all the time. People buying our speakers are often doing it after have replaced several CD mechs. I have a friend who is a Panasonic dealer amongst and he has exactly the same problems with some DVD players. They last about 15 months and it costs about as much to repair them as buy another, which is what most people do as they cost about £150.

Please bear in mind that each time a Mech changes we had to write another load of software to control it. It took Martin several weeks and was a great deal of work, however for the last mech, Philips offered software, which was hopeless and part of the problem. I could go on all morning but I have work. The main point I'm making it that the whole world minus a few anachrofiles are switching to computers because they've probably had the problems I'm describing, if you haven't you're lucky, but it wont last IMO.

Therefor my advice to anyone who has a CD player and is in love with it is to keep it and keep using it till it fails. Then buy an Apple Computer and start realising just how much you were missing by being behind the times.

Ash

 

[Anonymous]

Schbeemb:
Ash -- difficult to tell the best TV's apart now in my opinion, especially when they're all given a 24p feed. Though I must admit, as a fellow Panasonic owner, I am very impressed with the new Sony's having stood watching one the other day. My PZ70 has some motion issues, though really only when I'm watching for it.

Noble - the comment re different machines for different purposes - each to their own I guess but my Windows setup streams bit perfect music to my DAC and I can then go and watch a bluray if I wish. Admit that I'm not getting dolby true HD, I've not much interest in the surround sound thing and sold off my cinema kit, but I love BluRay for the crisp image and am happy chucking out a stereo signal at 16 or 24bits.

I'm not an expert but I understand that Sony has an inferior screen that has only 8 Bits to the 10 used by most of the others.

Ash

 

[Andrew Everard]

Ashley James:Then buy an Apple Computer...

 

[Anonymous]

Extremely productive, Andrew.

 

[JoelSim]

Andrew Everard:
Ashley James:Then buy an Apple Computer...

I bet that one sounds like a lemonÿ

 

[Andrew Everard]

JoelSim:I bet that one sounds like a lemon

Nah, it's just the "Every Time Ashley James Plugs Apple" swear-box.

 

[Anonymous]

Not quite. He says:

"So, if a cheapo combo drive is able to read 60 minute CD in 20 minutes
and achieve bit perfection, why do people seem doubtful that a CD
player of say £500, built soley for the purpose of extracting audio
from CDs, would be less capable, given that it has the luxury of the
full 60 minutes to do its extraction and error correction?"

and the flaw, as we've all be trying to say, is that the CD player doesn't have the full sixty minutes for extraction and error correction. It depends on the size of the read-ahead buffer amongst other things, but what it has is between one revolution of the compact disc and a couple of seconds at best. When ripping a CD, the software+cd drive has as long as it needs for error correction/anti jitter correction etc, because, as has been pointed out several times, it is producing a file, not audio output. Therefore, when that file is subsequently streamed to a DAC, it is as near perfect as can be (obviously this depends upon compression software, ratio etc) and therefore may sound better as all the hard work has already been done.

Now can we all go home?

 

[chebby]

Andrew Everard:
JoelSim:I bet that one sounds like a lemon

Nah, it's just the "Every Time Ashley James Plugs Apple" swear-box.

No matter how much Ashley plugs Apple on his website and online forums, Apple are yet to reciprocate by listing the ADM9.1 in the Audio & Speakers section of their stores or granting use of a Made for iPod logo. (Naim already have this for the Uniti and it's not even on sale yet.)

 

[Andrew Everard]

Mu understanding is that Apple doesn't just 'grant' a Made for iPod logo. It's a licensing deal, for which manufacturers of iPod-compatible products have to pay.