Project turntable upgrade

[oldleodensian]

Have a Debut Phono SB that I really like but want to improve it, so wondered what other forum members might think is the best upgrade path:

Buy an Xpression mk2 2nd hand (and changing cart to a 2M Red).

Or buying new Xpression III (comes with 2M Red)

Keeping Debut, changing ortofon 5e to a 2M Red, then save up for, say, Rega P3 or Project Xperience to buy at a much later date.

Thanks

 

[Anonymous]

hi there i have the Xpression mk2 and for what it is its very good. how ever its not much of a upgrade for you. i would deffo look at the rega. what price have you seen the Xpression mk2 at? because if its a really good deal go for it and get the 2m red with the money you have saved.

 

[oldleodensian]

sheepboy1234:what price have you seen the Xpression mk2 at? because if its a really good deal go for it and get the 2m red with the money you have saved.

Thanks for the reply. The xpression mk2 is in an auction, but I'd go about £120 max, as I'd still have to buy a 2M red for £65. Could probably sell the Debut SB for about £80 or thereabouts, so a possible upgrade path that's only slightly more than just the cart alone.

How much difference could a 2M Red make to a Debut Phono SB??

How much of an improvement is the the Xpression III ??

 

[Anonymous]

oldleodensian:
sheepboy1234:what price have you seen the Xpression mk2 at? because if its a really good deal go for it and get the 2m red with the money you have saved.

Thanks for the reply. The xpression mk2 is in an auction, but I'd go about £120 max, as I'd still have to buy a 2M red for £65. Could probably sell the Debut SB for about £80 or thereabouts, so a possible upgrade path that's only slightly more than just the cart alone.

How much difference could a 2M Red make to a Debut Phono SB??

How much of an improvement is the the Xpression III ??

Just a small point, I would beware of posting your bidding limits on an item that has yet to be sold in an ongoing auction, it gives any bidding rivals valuable information......

 

[oldleodensian]

MENISCUS:oldleodensian:

sheepboy1234:what price have you seen the Xpression mk2 at? because if its a really good deal go for it and get the 2m red with the money you have saved.

Thanks for the reply. The xpression mk2 is in an auction, but I'd go about £120 max, as I'd still have to buy a 2M red for £65.

Just a small point, I would beware of posting your bidding limits on an item that has yet to be sold in an ongoing auction, it gives any bidding rivals valuable information......

Thanks for the advice, but it's already gone above what I was prepared to bid for a 2nd hand TT that will need a new cartridge.

It's always easy for someone to win an auction at the last moment by placing a very high maximum bid, but I try to avoid a crazy bidding war by promising myself not to bid over a set limit. Otherwise it's so easy to suddenly pay much more than intended!!

 

[oldleodensian]

So...anybody out there tried an Ortofon 2M Red cartridge on a project Debut and seen a worthwhile improvement? Obviously I could put the £65 cost of the 2M Red towards an Xpression III and wait another 18 months til I can justify spending another £350 on a new turntable...or I could stick a 2M Red on the phono and see what happens.

 

[John Duncan]

Personally, I wouldn't bother. The Debut's a good deck but there's a whole lot more stability to be had from one step up the ladder in the extensive Project range or a step sideways into the Rega P2 or P3.

 

[oldleodensian]

JohnDuncan:Personally, I wouldn't bother. The Debut's a good deck but there's a whole lot more stability to be had from one step up the ladder in the extensive Project range or a step sideways into the Rega P2 or P3.

Cheers for the reply JD, nice to get a response from someone who knows (and uses) Project turntables. Do you still have the RPM 5.2, and is it a good deal better than the xpression, would you say? Saw a thread where you discussed the (lack of ) decent lid, and it's this aspect of it that puts me off its design...that and the way the tonearm has no deck underneath it (it just looks like it is asking to get knocked by careless hands!).

 

[John Duncan]

Haven't compared it to the Xpression, but I suspect that they're very similar indeed - same arm I think, which has always been the strong point of the higher-up Project decks. In the RPM, in a way I suspect you're paying for the design as much as anything. So if you must have a lid, the xpression's a far better choice than the RPM5, and you save loads of money an' all.

As for the positioning of the tonearm, yes it's a bit exposed, but more of an issue for me is that it's actually quite hard to cue it, what with it being so high up in the air!

 

[seasiders rock]

you can pick an expression mk1 up for about the £100 mark....

dump the felt mat, replace with a silicon mat, the arm is capable of taking a decent moving coil, i am using an ortofon tango, on another planet compared with the red.

pro ject recomend removing the lid when in use, reduces feed back, i agree it sounds better.

when funds permit add a speed box ( or the acrylic platter ) and you will have a very good sounding deck.

a big step up from the debut and genie....

dont worry about spares, it,s all available and cheap......recommended.............

 

[plastic penguin]

Pretty much the same as Mr. Duncan. Although with my Xpression 1 I upgraded the cartridge to great effect.

 

[John Duncan]

Seasiders has some good advice there - get a good, stable deck with a decent arm for as little as you can and there are lots of things you can do to improve it subsequently - platter, mat, motor, cartridge, blah blah. This goes for any of the models in the Project range that have the 'proper' arm (instead of the Debut's drinking straw) because Project have dedicated accessories like speed box power supply, but applies equally to the Rega P2 and P3, though with those earlier Regas (not the current P3-24) it might be more of an OEM jobbie (Origin Live springs, expensively, to mind).

 

[oldleodensian]

seasiders rock:

you can pick an expression mk1 up for about the £100 mark....

dump the felt mat, replace with a silicon mat, the arm is capable of taking a decent moving coil, i am using an ortofon tango, on another planet compared with the red.

pro ject recomend removing the lid when in use, reduces feed back, i agree it sounds better.

when funds permit add a speed box ( or the acrylic platter ) and you will have a very good sounding deck.

a big step up from the debut and genie....

dont worry about spares, it,s all available and cheap......recommended.............

Thanks for the reply, advice and opinions greatly appreciated. (that thanks also goes to all others who have responded!)

Is there much difference between xpression models 1 to III other than the acrylic platter and supplied cartridge? (I think they have the same 8.6 conical carbon fibre tonearm...but I may be wrong)

i.e. is motor, bearings etc all the same?

 

[oldleodensian]

JohnDuncan:Seasiders has some good advice there - get a good, stable deck with a decent arm for as little as you can and there are lots of things you can do to improve it subsequently - platter, mat, motor, cartridge, blah blah.

This goes for any of the models in the Project range that have the 'proper' arm (instead of the Debut's drinking straw)

Am I right in thinking that the xpression's 8.6 carbon fibre conical tonearm fits the bill of a proper arm, or do you mean those higher up the chain with the Project 9c arm (like the RPM5 for example)?

Thanks again for your advice.

 

[John Duncan]

I suspect the motor is the same thruppeny one in everything from the Debut to the RPM10

(happy for Henley to come and tell me different). They may have done some work on isolating the motor in later versions (My 5.2 suspends it from a rubber band, effectively, a common practice). Bearing I dunno. But there was nothing wrong with the Xpression 1, and the arm is good enough to handle a serious needle, so it's a very good start.

 

[Anonymous]

So Oldleodensian,

which way did you go? Upgraded the Debut? Or the Xpression. After reading the threads and many other reviews, I have just ordered the Xpression III with 2M Red Cart. Am really looking forward to the TT being delivered. I noted that there were many merchants selling the Xpression III with Otrofon Alpha Cartridge. Could not get too much information on that cart. Do any readers know which is better? 2M Red or the Alpha?

Thanks

Aun

 

[oldleodensian]

Aun: So Oldleodensian,

which way did you go? Upgraded the Debut? Or the Xpression. After reading the threads and many other reviews, I have just ordered the Xpression III with 2M Red Cart. Am really looking forward to the TT being delivered. I noted that there were many merchants selling the Xpression III with Otrofon Alpha Cartridge. Could not get too much information on that cart. Do any readers know which is better? 2M Red or the Alpha?

You will love your Xpression III, excellent choice. 2M red is a highly regarded cartridge.

Sold the Debut Phono SB on eBay, and used the funds to buy a brand new Xpression II. It's a definite improvement on the Debut, though it's uncertain which factor has had biggest improvement. Firstly, better tonearm with better stylus (factory fitted with OM10 whcih I plan to upgrade soon to a 2M red). having a separate Project Phono Box instead of an integral one may have improved (or not). It has phono sockets instead of encapsulated leads and changing from the Project leads supplied in the box (look just like the standard factory fiited encapsulated ones) for some QED Qnex 3 (silver coated copper) produced an immediate improvement.

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks a lot for that comment!!! "You will love your Xpression III, excellent choice. 2M red is a highly regarded cartridge." Made my day. I have already ordered it, and have been constantly second guessing my decision.

I am really looking forward to it arriving!! Am unboxing my old vinyls and preparing for the arrival of the shipment.

I have also ordered a separate phono pre amp and speed box by project. Additionally I have ordered two cables - the Atlas Voyager, and the Chord Chameleon Silver Plus - both with very different properties.

BTW, any information on the Otrofon Alpha Cartridge?

Thanks

Aun

 

[chebby]

Aun:Additionally I have ordered two cables - the Atlas Voyager, and the Chord Chameleon Silver Plus - both with very different properties.

Why did you spend out on two cables for your turntable costing something like £160 and £100 and a cartridge costing only £65? (Prices from a quick internet check.)

I would have spent far less on something like Chord Crimson (or similar) and used the rest for a much better cartridge.

Yes, the 2M Red is excellent (I had one before updgrading to 2M Blue) but 'better' cable is not going to retrieve information that a lesser stylus does not pick up in the first instance.

 

[Anonymous]

Chebby,

Thanks for your comments.

I have just bought a second hand system. Krell amp KAV 300iL, Sony CD Player SCD-XA777ES, and B&W 802D speakers. These are connected by Transparent speakers to the Krell. I do not have any interconnects, and am temporarily using some old freebies I found in the attic. (Probably came with some old CD / Video / LD player). I therefore needed interconnects for my CD / AMP connection in any case. I do not live in the UK, and do not have the opportunity to audition the different interconnects for myself, and therefore relied heavily on advice given to me by the manufacturers of the interconnects, by independent dealers, and through reviews and forum discussions. (BTW, I did consider the Chord Crimson and the Atlas Equator, but was advised to use higher quality interconnects for my system) I concluded from my 'research' that both interconnects were supposed to be very good... but with very different sound properties. I though I would give them both a listen, and then let my ears decide what they prefer. The suppliers have given me a 30 day exchange option. If I like one over the other, I could swap the other for my preferred pair of interconnects. I do agree with you that it is a lot of money, but I suppose I got carried away with all the 'research', and managed to justify it to myself that I will not be doing this again for a long, long time. (the last time I bought a music system was in 1987, just the year I started uni, and I enjoyed the system right until now!!! Acoustic Research AR44BX Speakers, Nad Amp, Nakamichi 100BX cassette player, and my dad's old Sansui turntable. )

As far as the cartridge upgrade for the Turntable is concerned, I do not have a large collection of Vinyls... some old LPs (maybe 50 or 60) and a lot 45 singles (from 70s to 80s music (pop / chart types). I thought it may be fun to restart listening to old records again!!! also show the kiddies what records were... the fun in the entire process... picking an album, checking which side to play, cleaning the record, adjusting the tone arm to the song you want to hear, and then listening to pure analogue sound - with the occasional static crackle and pop. So though the Xpression may complement my system, and did not want to get too carried away with the cost. I am not very confident on changing and aligning cartridges, and wanted something which I would be ready to get going straight away with. Therefore spending more on a cartridge was not really a preferred option for me, especially considering what if I goof up on the installing and aligning of the cartridge. Sorry for sounding so incompetent about it, but don't have the experience, and don't want to learn at the cost of damaging something. Mistake could prove to be too costly, especially post Lehman!!!

So there is my reasoning and thoughts behind my mindless sounding decisions!

Any feedback on the interconnects would really be appreciated!!!

Thanks

Aun

 

[chebby]

Aun:I do not have any interconnects, and am temporarily using some old freebies I found in the attic. (Probably came with some old CD / Video / LD player). I therefore needed interconnects for my CD / AMP connection in any case.

Ah ok, sorry, I thought the two cables you mentioned were for the turntable/cartridge alone.

I just felt that if the Ortofon 2M Red cartridge (£65- £70) was as far as you were going, then a combination of two cables (TT --> Phono pre and phono pre --> amplifier presumably) costing a total of some £260 was a little unbalanced, and that if you spent less on cable and more on the cartridge you would get an overall net benefit in sound quality from your vinyl.

Your turntable is more than capable of a more ambitious cartridge. At least something with a good nude elliptical rather than the 'shank' mounted diamond of the 2M Red stylus would pay dividends, not just in terms of a better sound but in digging deeper into the groove to retrieve more information and give better tracking and lower noise. Noise from vinyl does not go away (except maybe after a thorough clean) but a better stylus will bring the music more to the fore and emphasise noise less. A nude diamond has less 'tip mass' so the stylus will be more responsive.

I would rather err in favour of maximising the stylus quality than cables (just in the context of the turntable cables) because you are then maximising information retrieval from the groove and lowering the impact of any noise. Even the best cable cannot do that.

Great cable will throw a ruthlessly revealing light on the abilities of what is essentially a budget cartridge. If the budget was fixed I would rather have things other way around with funds allocated to a more capable cartridge and less expensive (but still good) cable.

 

[Anonymous]

Chebby,

Which stylus / cartridge would you recommend instead of the Otrofon 2M Red. The reviews on the 2M Red were quite good imo.

Thanks

Aun