Primare: The Great Leveller

[ESP2009]

In the immortal words of Victor Meldrew: "I don't belieeeeeeeve it!" [:O]

Strewn around the living room floor (and table for that matter) is pretty much my entire collection of cables. The place looks like an explosion on a snake farm. The roll of honour includes:-

Power cables: QED Qonduit, Russ Andrews Yello, SHB Accord, Clearer Audio Copperline Alpha, Primare ‘standards', Silvermann Clarity 2, Chord Superscreen (the new one), Atlas EOS, Black Rhodium, Rega, Supra 2.5, AN Other and even a bog-standard kettle lead.

Interconnects: SHB Avatar, SHB Synergy 1 and 2, SHB Metaphor 2, Merlin Chopin 3, Atlas Titan All Cu, Van Damme balanced XLR, and Gotham balanced XLR.

I have been trying them in different combinations, with and without Tacima power block, throughout the evening.

And, from the subject line, you guessed it, the difference between each and every one is minimal; the Primares sound great irrespective of what you throw at them! Maybe I should be relieved and pleased? No, I'm disappointed! I expected and wanted to hear a particular cable (mains or I/C) to wring out a few more drops of sonic quality and pleasure. I am willing to swear it happened with the Marantz and Audiolab kit I had earlier in the year, but the Primares steadfastly refuse to move no matter what you hook them up with. It's not fair! [:'(]

The last throw of the dice will be tomorrow evening when I try out the various speaker cables I have accumulated over the last 12 months, but I don't expect much after this evening's listening.

So, it looks as though the £400+ worth of mains cables I took away on loan from Music Matters will shortly return.

All hi-fi was not made equal, but Primare is the great cable equaliser - everything sounds good!

So, maybe I will now sit back and simply enjoy the music for a while; I must admit it does sound rather pleasant. [] In fact, while Melody does her thing, I'm off to do some rather overdue washing-up before retiring bedwards. Night-night. [|-)]

 

[Big Chris]

Fair enough, but which cables are gonna be making it back into your system?

 

[Anonymous]

Sell the cables and buy a dishwasher...

 

[ID.]

Hmm, maybe it just means you need some even more expensive cables

C'mon, look at those sexy Primares, you know they deserve it

 

[ESP2009]

Big Chris:Fair enough, but which cables are gonna be making it back into your system?

Now that is a good question.

You see, based on previous experience, I 'know' that cables can make a difference and, indeed, am tempted to bring the Marantz and such back in to prove to myself I am not going mad and that I did hear noticeable differences with those components.

So, with that in mind, would getting rid of the premium cables be a good idea? What if I ring the changes again and find myself short of appropriate cables?

In the meantime, I believe I will be sticking with good ole Jean Claude and the standard Primare power cables. I will start selling off what I don't want later in the autumn, so there's a while yet to decide. However, it's definitely 'goodbye' to the Rega, Chord, Atlas and Black Rhodium from Music Matters.

 

[ESP2009]

igglebert:Sell the cables and buy a dishwasher...

Sounds like a plan, but maybe I will keep one back to power it - bound to get those wine glasses crystal clear!

 

[ESP2009]

ID.:

Hmm, maybe it just means you need some even more expensive cables

C'mon, look at those sexy Primares, you know they deserve it

Having been told yesterday about a chap who spent £3k on I/Cs, I think the Primares will have to make do with what they have now! I'm all cabled out!

 

[ID.]

Sounds like a good result Certainly better than "I tried all my cables and they all left something to be desired"

Enjoy the Primares and the freedom from faffing about with cables

 

[ESP2009]

ID.:

Sounds like a good result Certainly better than "I tried all my cables and they all left something to be desired"

Enjoy the Primares and the freedom from faffing about with cables

Cheers!

But now I've got to find something else to faff about with!

 

[ESP2009]

OK, I have just proven to my own satisfaction that I am not going completely mad, although I think Queen had it aright with "I'm Going Slightly Mad".

I ventured into the front room and excavated the bog-standard Marantz CD63 KI Sig and Audiolab 8000s. OK, I admit that the CDP did come to me with as-sold power cable truncated and IEC plug attachment installed. I then powered them up and left them to warm up while I ate. The CDP was literally powered with a kettle lead and the amp with its as-supplied lead. I linked them with SHB Synergy RCAs. The sound was good, but there was something not quite 'right'. I couldn't quite put my finger on it.

So, without adding a DAC to the mix, I swapped the SHB leads out and replaced them with the Atlas All Cu Titans. I changed the mains cables for Clearer Audio Copperline Alpha (for CDP) and Silvermann Clarity 2 (for the amp). In went the same disc and...hey presto! We have a difference! The music is better controlled, more present and has a greater sense of space about it. The bass is tighter and the higher frequencies have lost the sibillance that had apparently crept into the first configuration.

Therefore I conclude that, while the Primare kit is minimally, if at all, affected by mucking about with power cables and interconnects, the Marantz and Audiolab definitely benefit from upgrades.

And here's the rub: listening to them now, I sincerely wonder why exactly I spent £1600 on the Primare kit when, for less than a third of that, I can listen to music that isn't so very far behind it in terms of quality. I suppose the answer is simple: I expected that the Primares would gain even more from good quality cables, based on my experience to-date. I was wrong! Doh!

Mind you, seeing them sat, side-by-side, I have to say that once you get used to them, the Primares look a lot classier.

Oh, and both systems sound absolutely fine via Jean Claude's girlfriend, Elsie, so thanks to Rik the Alien for the tip.

 

[John Duncan]

ESP2009:I sincerely wonder why exactly I spent £1600 on the Primare kit
ESP2009:Mind you [...] the Primares look a lot classier

The knobs have it. QED.

 

[ESP2009]

JohnDuncan:ESP2009:I sincerely wonder why exactly I spent £1600 on the Primare kit ESP2009:Mind you [...] the Primares look a lot classier The knobs have it. QED.

That's probably it - those knobs and buttons - minimalist, understated class.

Speaking of QED, I'm currently listening via the Revelation speaker cables as I make an Odyssey through my collection.

 

[Anonymous]

The Primares are far more capable of driving better speakers, including larger speakers. I've found that when you get into the realms of floorstanders and bigger stand mounters that produce serious amounts of bass, an amp like the Primare can keep things controlled.

 

[Anonymous]

igglebert:The Primares are far more capable of driving better speakers, including larger speakers. I've found that when you get into the realms of floorstanders and bigger stand mounters that produce serious amounts of bass, an amp like the Primare can keep things controlled.the sound im currently getting with the more powerful marantz pm7000 95 watts , is much more to my liking than it was with the 45watts pm6003 i had before ..

i dont know if its because of the extra power , but music sounds very good , no harshness whatsoever with high frequencies , tight bass , and better seperation of complex tracks , i think its a keeper , only cost e100 too

 

[ESP2009]

igglebert:The Primares are far more capable of driving better speakers, including larger speakers. I've found that when you get into the realms of floorstanders and bigger stand mounters that produce serious amounts of bass, an amp like the Primare can keep things controlled.

To be fair, one aspect of the upgrade was the power handling - looking to the future as it were. I must admit that the current configuration can be pretty darned room-filling! For some reason the volume goes up to 79 and I just tried it at 55, which was a tad overpowering. However, turning back down to 44, where I have been listening all evening, lost something.

I will certainly audition some different speakers at some point. That said, the current incumbents aren't doing a bad job at all. I reckon it will only be by hearing others that I will know what, if anything, I am missing.

 

[ESP2009]

After last night's disappointment with mains cables and interconnects, tonight I have mostly been mucking about with speaker cables. The line-up is:

Van den Hul Teatrack

QED Revelation

QED Silver Anniversary XT

Chord Odyssey 2

Van Damme U LC-OFC

First up was the VDH offering, carefully inserted because it is actually bi-wire. Previously I had found it over-poweringly 'warm' and a bit woolly. It's a bit like a large beige jumper your auntie knitted for your Christmas present - comfortable when it's bright and cold, but not always ideal. Surprisingly, after last night's results, I immediately noticed that the trademark traits were there. Yes, it gives great clarity and precision at the top end, but there is just that bit too much at the mid-lower end for me. However, in the face of yesterday's trends, I just had to do it: a change in power cables. A QED Qonduit was feeding the CDP and a Supra 2.5 the amp. I replaced these with a Clearer Audio Copperline Alpha and Silvermann Clarity 2 respectively. And...some of the weight actually lifted! Not enough, but I am sure the balance shifted away from the leaden. Interesting.

So, I am currently working my way through the rest of the collection. I am pretty sure that the QED Qonduit and VDH will be going at some point. Both lend too much weight to the lower frequencies for my taste.

Currently doing splendid work is the QED Revelation, but more of that later...

 

[Anonymous]

How does the Oddy 2 fare? I swear by it but haven't spent any time comparing with competitors to be fair.

 

[ESP2009]

igglebert:How does the Oddy 2 fare? I swear by it but haven't spent any time comparing with competitors to be fair.

Oooooooh, that would be telling!

 

[RCduck7]

ESP2009:

I have been trying them in different combinations, with and without Tacima power block, throughout the evening.

And, from the subject line, you guessed it, the difference between each and every one is minimal; the Primares sound great irrespective of what you throw at them! Maybe I should be relieved and pleased? No, I'm disappointed! I expected and wanted to hear a particular cable (mains or I/C) to wring out a few more drops of sonic quality and pleasure. I am willing to swear it happened with the Marantz and Audiolab kit I had earlier in the year, but the Primares steadfastly refuse to move no matter what you hook them up with. It's not fair!

So, it looks as though the £400+ worth of mains cables I took away on loan from Music Matters will shortly return.

It looks like Primare kit is of good quality and has some very good transformers inside that filter out a big deal of incoming noise and as a result also mains cables specified properties.

My amp is a dual mono design with big transformers and i have tested over 8 mains cables, sure there was a slight benefit over a standard throw away cable while on my DAC the difference was more noticeable in favour of a Supra and Wireworld mains cable.

But other then that most cables didn't do much for my amp except for a Wireworld cable, the difference was for the better clearly, bass tightened up and there was a sparkle that was previously missing, so i bought a few of those. Strangely the Supra that did pretty well on my DAC was worst of the bunch on my amp. I guess the Supra worked better with low current gear.

 

[ESP2009]

As it is getting late and I need to tidy everything away prior to The Return, I will be brief.

I am going to need to listen to the two QED cables, the Odyssey 2 and the Jean Claude some more. There are differences, but nothing really major. Which, I have to say, is all credit to the Jean Claude. However, I repeat, there are differences...relatively subtle ones. If I were to be strictly honest, I think that it is possible that the SA XT is the weakest, although I need to listen more to be fair to it and the others.

I am now listening to the Jean Claude having added JC jumpers (how weird does that read?) between the binding posts - Dream Theater's Octavarium is sounding good, although the cymbals are getting a bit 'splashy' when it begins to wind up after approx 8:30 mins. Listening to the rest of the mix, it might be in the production rather than a fault in the delivery?

I'm wittering. Time to finish for the night. Odyssey 2 vs QED Revelation vs Jean Claude? TBC...

 

[Anonymous]

Nice. Keep us posted

 

[ESP2009]

RCduck7:ESP2009:

I have been trying them in different combinations, with and without Tacima power block, throughout the evening.

And, from the subject line, you guessed it, the difference between each and every one is minimal; the Primares sound great irrespective of what you throw at them! Maybe I should be relieved and pleased? No, I'm disappointed! I expected and wanted to hear a particular cable (mains or I/C) to wring out a few more drops of sonic quality and pleasure. I am willing to swear it happened with the Marantz and Audiolab kit I had earlier in the year, but the Primares steadfastly refuse to move no matter what you hook them up with. It's not fair!

So, it looks as though the £400+ worth of mains cables I took away on loan from Music Matters will shortly return.

It looks like Primare kit is of good quality and has some very good transformers inside that filter out a big deal of incoming noise and as a result also mains cables specified properties.

My amp is a dual mono design with big transformers and i have tested over 8 mains cables, sure there was a slight benefit over a standard throw away cable while on my DAC the difference was more noticeable in favour of a Supra and Wireworld mains cable.

But other then that most cables didn't do much for my amp except for a Wireworld cable, the difference was for the better clearly, bass tightened up and there was a sparkle that was previously missing, so i bought a few of those. Strangely the Supra that did pretty well on my DAC was worst of the bunch on my amp. I guess the Supra worked better with low current gear.

I think you are on the right track (well, that's how I explained it myself!) And I certainly subscribe to the theory that different mains cables can be more suited to one category of separate than another. I must say that after last night I was quite surprised to hear the change of cables influence the sound of the VDH Teatrack for the better. Just goes to show that there is potentialy a lot of variety to be tried and tested before you settle on anything for certain...if you have the time and inclination (and cash?)

 

[aliEnRIK]

(JC Jumpers?)

Not sure what your doing there ESP. But ideally you should use the same cable throughout (be it single wire and the same across the jumpers, or bi-wire)

I feel your not giving yourself enough time though

When I test something, unless its clearly worse, ill test it over a few weeks or even months

Everyone should have certain tracks they know how they sound etc. Its why I sided with the VDs. Ive tried quite a few different cables, but none so good as the VDs

Im not saying theyre the very best. But for the money theyre streets ahead.

My personal viewpoint is that purity of conductor is the most important for sound. So something like the Atlas Ascent 3.5 would be a step up im sure (OCC copper ~ pretty much a pure strand of copper with no grain). But its very expensive stuff, so I personally cant warrant spending that sort of money)

As for mains cables. Ive found it can take a couple of weeks for definite improvements to appear (I can only assume equipment 'acclimatises' to certain equipment over a period of time due to it being a cleaner signal - Makes a sort of sense to me)

The best ive personally found are the braided type, which have been measured to reduce RFI. Solid silver cables sounded awful at first, so you cant just fit a new one of them and expect something to sound great (Start to pick up after a week or 2, but takes months to bed in). Id like to get a hold of russ andrews 24 core mains cables, but again, far too expensive for my liking. Which is why my systems kitted out with TM3 connections 16 core mains (copper on everything except my amps which are solid silver)

After 2 weeks with the copper braid fitted to my tv, I had to turn the colour control down

Just as an added note ~

Most if not all equipment sounds better with cleaner mains (Thats 'cleaner mains' in general. As you know, some devices strangle current to amps etc, so not all conditioners etc work well, in fact most dont). So I believe ive noticed more differences in cables than other people due to having a high-ish end setup, and very clean mains. Possibly why the differences YOUR hearing are so subtle?

 

[ESP2009]

aliEnRIK:

(JC Jumpers?)

Not sure what your doing there ESP. But ideally you should use the same cable throughout (be it single wire and the same across the jumpers, or bi-wire)

Sorry 'bout that - I was being a bit daft. I refer to the fact that I snipped a good metre off the length of Van Damme speaker cable I purchased (I ordered 7m and they sent over 8m!!) and, following advice, made up jumpers to replace the supplied plates. I've still got plenty left over!

As for the remainder of your response, you make interesting points. Am I being too impatient? Expecting too much, too soon? Maybe. Given where I live, cleaner mains is not something I expect. I doubt I will get authorisation for the necessary improvements, so minor tweaks are what I am limited to and maybe with the kit I now have they just aren't sufficient to make the difference. Still, I have to admit it is sounding good.

Oh, and just to be a bit of a rebel, for the sake of expediency, because the Van Dammes were a temporary installation last night, I hooked the Odysseys back up and left the Van Damme jumpers in.

 

[aliEnRIK]

I feel a little foolish for not connecting the JC in my head