Primare: The Great Leveller

[aliEnRIK]

ESP2009:
As for the remainder of your response, you make interesting points. Am I being too impatient? Expecting too much, too soon? Maybe. Given where I live, cleaner mains is not something I expect. I doubt I will get authorisation for the neccesary improvements, so minor tweaks are what I am limited to and maybe with the kit I now have they just aren't sufficient to make the difference. Still, I have to admit it is sounding good.

Sounds like youd probably benefit from something to clean up the mains supply (Balanced transformer, mains conditioner or whatever)

 

[ESP2009]

aliEnRIK:I feel a little foolish for not connecting the JC in my head

No substitute for doing it on the hi-fi itself, I'm told.

 

[ESP2009]

aliEnRIK:[Sounds like youd probably benefit from something to clean up the mains supply (Balanced transformer, mains conditioner or whatever)

Somehow I don't expect a box that hums will go down very well with the arbiter of taste and decency. Spending my money on a frippery such as a dedicated spur wouldn't be too bad, but might cause disruption and inconvenience (maybe if we are doing something else at the same time?) Mains conditioners? You mean try something a bit more serious than the Tacima?

 

[aliEnRIK]

ESP2009:You mean try something a bit more serious than the Tacima?

Yes. Your amps not plugged into it is it?

 

[idc]

My theory as to what when on during your cable switching.....
I think that you identified the issue when you played around with the volume. Different amps have different sweet spots where the volume is allowing all of the details and dynamics to come through, but it is not too loud that it worries you about annoying others or just plain distortion or clipping.

Different amps have different volume controls and some are better than others. There have been lots of posts about where to you have your volume control set at? My old Rega amp had very little fine adjustment and would go from quiet to loud very quickly. My present amp has a huge volume range and fine adjustment is easy.

Different amps also react to the load presented to them by different sources. CDPs out put voltage is usually higher than the amps input. Hence the use of attenuation (either as fit on plugs or built into the cable) can be a very good idea. The attenuation is caused by increasing the resistance between the source and amp and matching the voltage. I found my attenuated cables helped to lessen the problem with the Mira amp as I had more volume control and a larger sweet spot.

If the above is correct then if you check the Primare kit you will find an output voltage of the CDP that is similar to the input of the amp, or at least a smaller difference than between the Marantz and Audiolab.

The different cables will have small differences in resistance and that resistance acts as an attenuator.

My theory is that you will find less impact in one amp/CDP than the other because of the effect of resistance as attenuation and how that varies between products.

The actual volume issue is key to this as well. I believe that the ear can start to tell differences in volume from as low as 3db. Slight adjustments in volume (turning it up) can be perceived as better sound. That is because the louder the music is the more dynamic and detailed it is. Too low and it is out of the sweet spot. A small change can put it into the sweet spot.

So a cable that affects a system by a slight increase in the volume through attenuation, is perceived to have improved the sound.

In one way you can say that the cable has improved the sound, but you can get the same improvement (if your amps volume control is good enough) by very slight volume adjustments.

So again I would theorise that the Primares volume control is a better than the Audiolabs.

If you got a SPL meter and equalised the volume between each cable, I am sure all differences would disappear.

 

[idc]

Now do it all again as a blind test

Get the other half to help with the offer of a meal out, say £20 maximum. As an added incentive to you, if you correctly spot the different cables I will pay for that meal. You send me the receipt and I will send you a cheque! If you fail, the meal is on you. Deal?

The test has to done in the follow ABX manner. Choose any two speaker cables and lay them out next to each other from amp to speaker. Get the other half to decide which is A and which is B. Whilst you are out of the room get her to fit either A or B. This needs to be done in such a manner that you cannot tell which one is actually connected. That is critical. There may be a slight volume difference between the cables and you do not want to be able to pick out which cable is which just from the volume. Your other half needs to have set places to set the volume control if there is a volume difference that you cannot see on the volume control. You then listen to the first cable and then the second.It may be easier to have you blind folded when you are in the room.

Choose one piece of music to listen to through out the test.

Then she needs to start tossing a coin. Heads is A and tails is B. Which ever comes up is the one you now listen to. (If by a fluke you get 10 heads in a row it would be better to add in a change every so often). That is X. You need to decide whether X is A or B. Sometimes the cables will will not change others they will. Your wife needs to act in exactly the same way whether she has changed the cables or not. You need to do it 20 times and be out of the room for each change and be absolutely sure you do not see which cable is actually plugged in.

To be statistically significant and pass the test you need to identify X correctly more than 80% of the time.

 

[ESP2009]

If I understand even half of what you say (my physics is rusty) I agree with your logic. Of course, it helps that amp and CDP were 'made for each other'. The perceived fact that changing speaker cables seems to have had an effect is arguably an extension of that logic? The argument that the aim of a cable is to transmit the signal with minimal impact upon its character probably creeps in somewhere. However, given the difference between the two systems in question, it is only reasonable to expect greater performance in all departments given reasonable inputs and outputs. The Primares appear to deliver, but not as I had expected. I still give credit to the Marantz/Audiolab pairing for not being far behind the Primares in terms of delivery. It certainly makes me pause in any plans to sell them on - even though the OH won't fully appreciate them as a second system elsewhere in the house!

 

[idc]

If you have the manuals would you mind checking the CDPs output voltage and the amps input voltage to see if I am correct?

I could look them up on the internet, but i may not get the exact model correct.

Thanks.

 

[ESP2009]

aliEnRIK:ESP2009:You mean try something a bit more serious than the Tacima?

Yes. Your amps not plugged into it is it?

Heaven forfend!!

No, I have scrupulously followed advice on that score.

 

[ESP2009]

idc:

Now do it all again as a blind test

Get the other half to help with the offer of a meal out, say £20 maximum. As an added incentive to you, if you correctly spot the different cables I will pay for that meal. You send me the receipt and I will send you a cheque! If you fail, the meal is on you. Deal?

The test has to done in the follow ABX manner. Choose any two speaker cables and lay them out next to each other from amp to speaker. Get the other half to decide which is A and which is B. Whilst you are out of the room get her to fit either A or B. This needs to be done in such a manner that you cannot tell which one is actually connected. That is critical. There may be a slight volume difference between the cables and you do not want to be able to pick out which cable is which just from the volume. Your other half needs to have set places to set the volume control if there is a volume difference that you cannot see on the volume control. You then listen to the first cable and then the second.It may be easier to have you blind folded when you are in the room.

Choose one piece of music to listen to through out the test.

Then she needs to start tossing a coin. Heads is A and tails is B. Which ever comes up is the one you now listen to. (If by a fluke you get 10 heads in a row it would be better to add in a change every so often). That is X. You need to decide whether X is A or B. Sometimes the cables will will not change others they will. Your wife needs to act in exactly the same way whether she has changed the cables or not. You need to do it 20 times and be out of the room for each change and be absolutely sure you do not see which cable is actually plugged in.

To be statistically significant and pass the test you need to identify X correctly more than 80% of the time.

Oh, the fun we'll have!

Attractive as the proposition might be, I would feel guilty taking your money off you!

But seriously...your point is well made. I have a feeling that I might successfully spot the VDH cable quite consistently - it makes the music sound heavy and concentrated in a fairly distinctive manner. To be fair, I don't even think I dislike it as such, I just prefer the others. And speaking of the others, that is where the ABX test would prove your point. I have to admit that the sonic performance I enjoyed last night when the QEDs, the Odyssey 2 and the Jean Claude were each installed was very, very close. Arguably I could hear slight differences in character, but could I do it consistently and identify which cable was the culprit? Nah, not a snowflake's, mate!

So, would it be a waste of time to spend time comparing them at greater length? I'm sure some will voice an emphatic "Yes!" Well, I have a few Monday evenings coming up during which I can listen at my leisure - I reckon I will simply try each in turn and see which seems to stick. Probably the last one I listen to.

I've had enough mucking about with the other cables for now, so will just spin a few discs during an evening and enjoy what comes out. I think I've worn out Melody Gardot's "Who Will Comfort Me" so perhaps a few different artistes will grace the system.

 

[ESP2009]

idc:

If you have the manuals would you mind checking the CDPs output voltage and the amps input voltage to see if I am correct?

I could look them up on the internet, but i may not get the exact model correct.

Thanks.

I hope this makes sense (and I'm not looking at the manuals at home because they're a few miles away):

CDP (CD31): Balanced Output 4.0VRMS

Amp (I30): Balanced Input 560mV

The Primare website www.primare.net has all the info you could wish for if you are technically minded (and I know you are!)

 

[idc]

Ah well, the offer stands. It is just when I realised you have free Mondays and all of those cables lying around, I thought I would take the chance.

I cannot tell the difference between my DIY, the SHB and Choseal ICs I have, nor the stock AKG headphone cable and the one I made. I I did two tests and gave up as I had not got a clue and was just guessing.

I confess an ulterior motive as I am very active on another forum in the area of blind testing and the science behind audio and the more tests the better!

 

[idc]

I cannot find the Marantz nor the Audiolabs specs online, so when you get home could you see what their manuals say I would be obliged.

 

[ESP2009]

idc:I cannot find the Marantz nor the Audiolabs specs online, so when you get home could you see what their manuals say I would be obliged.

Scary gobbledigook at back of book says:

Audiolab = 125mV

Marantz = 2V RMS

Hope this helps your theorising.

 

[Anonymous]

I'm not sure that you can compare those values as one output/input is balanced and one single ended.

Of course, I actually don't know what I'm talking about.

 

[idc]

To compare like with like first, I have not used the balanced figures but instead;

Primare amp 280mV and Primare CDP 2Vrms

Audiolab amp 125mV and Marantz CDP 2Vrms

Using Russ Andrews guide to attenuation clicky the Primare needs -11dB and the Audiolab/Marantz -16dB. So there is an audible difference with the Primare needing less attenuation. So it is likely that any attenuating effect of the cables is less obvious with the Primare than the other setup.

Then, if we actually use the balanced figures given;

Primare amp 560mV and Primare CDP 4Vrms

I would guess from the RA guide no attenuation is needed at all. So the difference would be even less with the cable.

So, assuming my science is correct (anyone out there please check!), that is the reason why you have found no difference with the interconnects in your Primare setup.

 

[Anonymous]

I'm not sure that the arguement stands to reason. Just because less attenuation is required (according to RA) doesn't mean that cables don't sound different. Sorry, I'm not an engineer by nature so you may be absolutely right!

 

[idc]

My theory for interconnects in full.

There are many credible reports of cables making a difference.

Blind testing and signal tests of cables find that people cannot reliably pick out different cables and the signal out is the same as the signal in.

Of the basic electrical properties of a cable resistance (or attenuation) can make a difference, to the volume only.

The ear is sensitive to small variations in volume. (Demos often try to play kit at a higher than normal volume as the clarity and dynamics are better)

Different cables may affect the volume on different setups.

Those slight volume differences can be enough to reasonably convince someone that there has been a worthwhile improvement in their new cable if it has increased the volume. Vice versa if the volume is decreased.

A difference in volume with a cable is not really a reason to buy one as that difference can be replicated by an adjustment of the volume control.

Any perceived improvement in a cable is down to placebo and psychoacoustics and is not inherent within the cable.

(On attenuation, it can be worthwhile as it can help when a volume control is not sensitive enough to allow minor adjustments. Where no attenuation is required it can be counter productive.)

 

[Anonymous]

Then how do you explain a warmer sounding cable? And how do you explain a bright cable with less bass (quite considerably less)?

 

[idc]

95% placebo and psychoacoustics and 5% (possible) attenuation by the cable altering the volume.

There is no consistency between what cable makers claim for their cables and the supposed sound that they make. If you really could make a warmer cable, we would know how to do that with the available materials, any other cable make up could not be warm and crucially blind testing would identify those cables as sounding warm and different from other cables.

 

[aliEnRIK]

idc:
95% placebo and psychoacoustics and 5% (possible) attenuation by the cable altering the volume.

There is no consistency between what cable makers claim for their cables and the supposed sound that they make. If you really could make a warmer cable, we would know how to do that with the available materials, any other cable make up could not be warm and crucially blind testing would identify those cables as sounding warm and different from other cables.

Im going to have to disagree idc (Although im sure theres plenty of placebo moments too)

Time will tell though. Time will tell............

 

[idc]

Do you disagree with my 'statistic' or claims about cables and their sound?

Time will tell what? Are you going to do a blind test?

 

[Dave_]

idc:I am very active on another forum in the area of blind testing and the science behind audio Why?

 

[aliEnRIK]

idc:
Do you disagree with my 'statistic' or claims about cables and their sound?

Time will tell what? Are you going to do a blind test?

Im saying 'some' cables do sound differently. The Van Damme BLUE and UP LC-OFC definitely sound different and theyre from the same manufacturer (I believe they may be slowly changing all the spec to include LC-OFC so that might be untrue in the future)

When we tested cd players, we hated the lack of bass from ALL the players and couldnt understand why this was. We changed the speaker CABLES, and suddenly we had bass again

My dads just bought and tried some VD LC, and hes on about putting his old cables back on again (So in effect, id convinced him that the LC were the way to go, and yet his EARS have told him something different)

I may do a blind test someday, but its a nightmare to set up for me (That said, I may be able to do an IC one easily enough)

Time will tell if your right or wrong..............

 

[idc]

daveh75:idc:I am very active on another forum in the area of blind testing and the science behind audio Why?

I wanted to try and figure out what was going on that some swore by cable differences and others were adament there is no difference. I had also read more and more about the rise of bogus science and weird beliefs.

So I went looking for evidence, but I am no scientist and needed help, clarification and checking.

I spent hours sifting through the internet and had sorted a post to start a thread on blind testing, but an hour after I posted it here it disappeared. I presume it fell foul of house rules, though I was sure it was all OK.

So I went elsewhere for the help and assistance I needed.