Primare: The Great Leveller

[aliEnRIK]

idc:
daveh75:idc:I am very active on another forum in the area of blind testing and the science behind audio Why?

I wanted to try and figure out what was going on that some swore by cable differences and others were adament there is no difference. I had also read more and more about the rise of bogus science and weird beliefs.

So I went looking for evidence, but I am no scientist and needed help, clarification and checking.

I spent hours sifting through the internet and had sorted a post to start a thread on blind testing, but an hour after I posted it here it disappeared. I presume it fell foul of house rules, though I was sure it was all OK.

So I went elsewhere for the help and assistance I needed.

Have you had any 'blind test' volunteers as yet pal?

 

[idc]

Only myself with my ICs and failed miserably, though I did cut the test short. I would not do it again with my kit because the ICs were so tight onto the inputs that we decided there was a risk of damage.

The only actual difference was a slight one with volume. The Van Dammes sounded louder than the SHB.

 

[ESP2009]

Well, chaps, while you have been debating back and forth, I have been out and about over the weekend, with no time to check back on the forum. As ever, I see that we have some healthy discussions going on. However, let's just put it this way: Sunday afternoon, we had a couple of friends round and one of them commented on how good the music was sounding (we'd actually got the Melody Gardot album on - the OH's standard background for when we have guests).

We had a very quick chat about buying hi-fi, as he likes his music, and he echoed my sentiments that there is only so far you can sensibly go, given your circumstances. He says recently he nearly spent a fairly decent sum on kit, but when he was told that approx £600 for cabling would need to be added to his shopping list - he took a reality check and stopped right there and walked away from the purchase. It just wasn't worth it when his opportunities for proper listening were sensibly considered.
So maybe it's high time to cease chasing round after power cables, speaker cables and I/Cs that might make a difference and accept that what I have sounds just fine with the connections it has. As much as I like the idea of the challenge of doing ABX tests, I think those days are over for me. I don't think I can even find a like-minded friend with the time and inclination. Besides, that's a good point about the risk of damage: the more mucking about I do, the greater the chance of breaking something.

 

[Anonymous]

I echo your sentiments ESP. I play with the odd cable but any differences (however large or small) don't impact my listening experience. Any sound changes are very small. Thus, the conclusion any sensible person has to draw is to focus the investment elsewhere, probably on CDs!

EDIT The only time a cable change made my system unlistenable was when I had a bright sound and I added the Nordost Blue Heaven. The problem was ultimately the components not the cable so I changed them!

 

[ESP2009]

So, I reckon the next logical step is to see what difference another pair of speakers makes. Though the S3e pair sounds good, I feel the urge to just try some others to decide whether there's something that suits me even more. But we've been over that ground elsewhere.

 

[Andrew Everard]

idc:I am very active on another forum in the area of blind testing and the science behind audio

Good-o..

 

[Anonymous]

In no way am I wishing to suggest you get back into the nasty habit of cable testing but just thought i'd throw in my 2p worth from a few years back. I literally spent about 2 months loaning, begging and borrowing a number of power cables to see if they really made a dfference to the sound (to me, in my room, with my music and system yadda yadda). I went through a variety of Merlin, RA, ClearerAudio, Nordost, and no name cheapy cables into my Meridian 507 with to me little discernable difference. After many hours I decided the RA Classic Powercord made a slight difference and that if i wanted to tweak the last inch of sound without changing source equipment that'd probably be my best option.

Unfortunately my 'friend' then loaned me his TCi Boa Constrictor - i can't really justify the cost but i need one (that should probably be NEED lol). After about 10 cables i was happy my system sounded as it should and then my comfort was spoiled lol.

So anyway enjoy your system and maybe one day when you've really decided you don't need to worry anymore the perfect cable may come along and get things all mixed up again (at least these are good changes and the feeling of having to listen to all your favourites again is great )

Damnit now i'm thinking about cables again .. and that Mark Grant Furutech looks just the job ...

 

[ESP2009]

Gasp! I 'Googled' the boa constrictor and it is currently on Amazon for just shy of £1200 - strangled squawk. I somehow doubt my kit deserves such esoteric (translated as bank account pillaging) accessories! Fortunately, I don't have friends(?) like yours, so consider myself reasonably safe from such temptations.

Mind you, that's not to say I won't be looking at spending the equivalent or more on a nice pair of speakers. I think that I will be needing to look at high sensitivity models to get the best performance at lower volumes so that the Sound Police remains mollified.

 

[Big Chris]

ESP2009:

Mind you, that's not to say I won't be looking at spending the equivalent or more on a nice pair of speakers. I think that I will be needing to look at high sensitivity models to get the best performance at lower volumes so that the Sound Police remains mollified.

Interesting.

I was wondering if the opposite would be true. less efficient speakers would require the volume knob being ramped up further for the same levels (like adding an attenuator), so it'd allow greater adjustment at lower levels and also the amp would be driving harder, so would have expected the sound to improve a tad at lower volumes.

Any thoughts?

 

[ESP2009]

Big Chris:ESP2009:

Mind you, that's not to say I won't be looking at spending the equivalent or more on a nice pair of speakers. I think that I will be needing to look at high sensitivity models to get the best performance at lower volumes so that the Sound Police remains mollified.

Interesting.

I was wondering if the opposite would be true. less efficient speakers would require the volume knob being ramped up further for the same levels (like adding an attenuator), so it'd allow greater adjustment at lower levels and also the amp would be driving harder, so would have expected the sound to improve a tad at lower volumes.

Any thoughts?

Probably me being thick, I'm afraid. I was reading about speakers at breakfast this morning - I'm not at my best first thing, so may very easily have got confused!

 

[Anonymous]

bah google amazon tie in's lol.

The 1.5m is listed at £500 and can usually be had for £420, still damn expensive but it was more of a 'there may be a cable out there somewhere' lol.

and he is my friend i just did the '' as he keeps buying new stuff and saying 'listen to this' and then my wallet screams at me and begs no more.. luckily SWMBO is also tuned in to wallet screaming and she hits me with big sticks until i stop thinking about hi-fi

.

oh and any ideas which speakers you're looking at yet? atc scm19's? focal 1027? MA pl100?

 

[ESP2009]

Barren:

bah google amazon tie in's lol.

The 1.5m is listed at £500 and can usually be had for £420, still damn expensive but it was more of a 'there may be a cable out there somewhere' lol.

and he is my friend i just did the '' as he keeps buying new stuff and saying 'listen to this' and then my wallet screams at me and begs no more.. luckily SWMBO is also tuned in to wallet screaming and she hits me with big sticks until i stop thinking about hi-fi

.

oh and any ideas which speakers you're looking at yet? atc scm19's? focal 1027? MA pl100?

I am 'fortunate' that I don't really have any hi-fi savvy friends nowadays. Ironically, way back, when I had too little disposable income, I had at least two mates who put me on the road to hi-fi appreciation (if not actual ownership), but they have fallen by the wayside over the years. SWMBO (aka the Sound Police) thinks I am mad, but it's my money I spend.

Speakers? Well, given that the current rrp of both Primares lies in the region of £1500 I hope I can be forgiven for looking in the same general price area. Standmounts that don't mind being tethered to positions close to room walls and capable of providing a good sound even at lower volumes are key. Oh, and another factor: some inconsiderate swine has decreed that VAT goes up in 2011.

 

[idc]

Andrew Everard:
idc:I am very active on another forum in the area of blind testing and the science behind audio

Good-o..

Here is the better place to be. The other place can be very heavy going indeed.

My one audiophile mate works in a company who make their own cabling for their systems, so he is unconvinced by some audiophile cable companies and their claims of sound improvements.

 

[ESP2009]

idc:Andrew Everard:

idc:I am very active on another forum in the area of blind testing and the science behind audio

Good-o..

Here is the better place to be. The other place can be very heavy going indeed.

My one audiophile mate works in a company who make their own cabling for their systems, so he is unconvinced by some audiophile cable companies and their claims of sound improvements.

Without wishing to kick the whole cable thing off again, my theory is that there is so much scope for variation out there in terms of kit and combinations thereof, electrical supply, room acoustics, listener faculties, etc, etc, that any real chance of a definitive answer is very small. Just because a particular set-up seems impervious to cable changes in one particular listening environment, does not necessarily mean this will be so if it is re-located elsewhere for a listening session. I reckon there are too many factors having an influence. The debate will continue despite any attempts to conclusively and scientifically prove the point one way or the other.

I admit that it would make things far simpler if it were to be proven that basically cable varieties make no difference, but life would not be quite so interesting!

Oh, and as for your comment about A.N. Other forum - I fully agree. I am a member of, and ocasionally dip into, another forum, but find the air far more rarified (although slanging matches can be even more vitriolic). I feel far more at home here.

 

[ESP2009]

Since the visit from Alan (as I reported earlier in the week), I have not really had a chance to follow up on his advice. However, this evening I have a window of opportunity that I am using 'constructively' as follows:-

1. Swap between Van Damme XLRs and Atlas Titan RCAs.

2. Alter location of banana plug-ins at speakers (they had been changed to a diagonal formation (Red = HF, Black = LF).

3. Swap out half squash balls and replace with BluTak equivalent.

4. Take amp mains plug back out of Tacima block and back into direct circuit.

What made the most difference?

1. Negligible, if any.

2. Ditto.

3. Ditto.

4. Ah, a discernible improvement in clarity and sense of space - more detail and slightly tighter bass. No "WOW!" But a definite improvement to my ears.

I still have another half hour to play, so if you will excuse me...

 

[audioaffair]

The Primare I30 with CD31 has always been a formidable combination and one of my favourite amp/CD combos since I first heard these a few years ago.