Possible change in set up.

[edplaysdrums42]

Hi All

Just thinking out loud on possibly changing my set up, As you can see on my sig i have ATC gear which does sound superb once cranked up a bit which is something i rarely get to do. The ATC gear is very neutral and can be a bit cold at times and ruthless if its not a great recording. I'm starting to think i want something warmer and more musical, i want to listen to music, not analize and mix it!

I heard some Audio note AX-2 speakers on the end of a Croft integrated amp and it sounded amazing, i didnt want it to end, very rich musical, i'm starting to think that this is what i prefer, everytime i hear something similar i just wish i had that at home, the Croft, Audionote combo is something i am definately going to demo at home (although the speakers are not lookers).

Does anyone have suggesstions on a system change that might (speakers, amp or both) would be suitable and would high sensitivity speakers be better for lower level listening.

I also do a lot of listening on the headphones but i have no complaints there, the headphone stage on the ATC amp through my AKG's always sounds superb.

If anyone has any thoughts on this i would be truly grateful. I have been thinking about this for a while and is not going away!

Cheers

Ed 🙂

 

[CnoEvil]

Hi Ed

I have recommended the Audio Note AX and AZ speakers on here as a musical solution, where an efficient speaker is needed, for close to the wall.

For amps look to Icon Audio, Pure Sound, Sugden and Unison Research Research (and Croft).

Where amps have a bit more current behind them, look at speakers like Sonus Faber, Proac and Spendor.

You haven't mentioned budget.

 

[edplaysdrums42]

Hi Cno

My budget will be what i can get for my amp and speakers plus about £300 so i suppose approx £2300. I realise i haven't got that much to play with but probably enough to warm things up a bit!

Cheers Ed

 

[Macspur]

Hi Ed, As you see from my sig, I also have ATC and whilst fairly happy, I like you find it a bit waring, especially with the forwardness of the Naim CDP. It's such a shame, as some times with certain CD's, I think the sound can't be bettered, but then with others it sounds quite dreadful. I discussed my feelings with a dealer and he suggested I try Harbeth super HL5, which incidentally work very well with Croft amps, so I will be home demoing them next week. I also have my eye on a Sugden CDP, but can't afford both, so I'll probably have some decisions to make... not my forte!

 

[CnoEvil]

Hi Ed, As you see from my sig, I also have ATC and whilst fairly happy, I like you find it a bit waring, especially with the forwardness of the Naim CDP. It's such a shame, as some times with certain CD's, I think the sound can't be bettered, but then with others it sounds quite dreadful. I discussed my feelings with a dealer and he suggested I try Harbeth super HL5, which incidentally work very well with Croft amps, so I will be home demoing them next week. I also have my eye on a Sugden CDP, but can't affo rd both, so I'll probably have some decisions to make... not my forte.

Are you looking for something that's in between Proac and ATC (which are opposide ends of the spectrum)?

 

[edplaysdrums42]

Hi Macspur Thanks for your response (and cno) keep us posted of what you think of the Harbeths, i hope to demo the Audionote's in a week or two and hopefully with the Croft integrated with built in phono stage shortly after.

Cheers Ed

 

[Electro]

listen to a pair of PMC speakers before you sell any of your equipment .

They have similar detail levels in the top and mid range frequencies to ATC speakers but the presentation is far more ear friendly and musical , the bass from a PMC speaker will be in a different league though IMO.

Judging from your picture and name you play the drums and I can tell you that PMC speakers reproduce drums in a most realistic way, especially kick drums, in fact better than any other type or make of speaker that I have ever heard .

As for low level listening , this is something that all PMC speakers do exceptionally well , their frequency response is the same at all listening levels so they sound the same at whisper quiet levels or very loud levels , only quieter or louder !

In theory a pair of PMC speakers should give you the detail and dynamics of your ATC's with the rich musical sound of the Audionote speakers, and at any level you care to play your music , possibly the best of both worlds ?

The only way to find out is have a listen and see if they do what you want

.

 

[edplaysdrums42]

Hi Electro

Thanks for your reply, I will make sure i get to audtion some. Are the qualities you mention of PMC's across the range or with just specific models?

Cheers Ed

 

[CJSF]

O'dear . . . this going to sound a bit like beating a drum . . . as a PMC, Croft, P5 user, I would have to look at the Ortofon Black as a potential problem. Having tried it, in the above combination its definitely on the dry (cool) side for me, great detail, analytical to a fault, but I cant give it the 'musical' accolade.

Is it the 'Black' thats producing the cold analytical sound as I have found . . . and not the amps, speakers? I still get cold from Black and Blue using Crorft/PMC. I'm looking at Benz, Grado or Clearaudio as a warmer source . . .

CJSF

 

[altruistic.lemon]

Agree with cnoevil, but would add Sonus Faber to the mix. My vote would go to Harbeth, though if you have room, there's always maggies...

 

[CnoEvil]

Once you have opened up your mind to the likes of Croft, Harbeth and Audio Note etc, you are well on the way to finding what your after.

I will not answer Electro's question, only to say that the new PMC Twenty range are voiced differently, as described by David here: http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/pmc-twenty-series-first-impressions

 

[edplaysdrums42]

Hi CJ

Its not really anything specifically to do with the cart, i have had this feeling about my set up even before i got the TT. To be honest my TT sounds much better now i have the 2M black with replaced a Rega Bias . I'm happy with my sources at the moment, its just that the ATC gear is very neutral. I just want to enjoy my music instead analysing every note, hi hat, room sound, reverb in the mix etc.

While you're on CJ how are you getting on with the Croft now you have had it a while and how do you rate the phono stage

Cheers Ed

 

[CnoEvil]

O'dear . . . this going to sound a bit like beating a drum . . . as a PMC, Croft, P5 user, I would have to look at the Ortofon Black as a potential problem. Having tried it, in the above combination its definitely on the dry (cool) side for me, great detail, analytical to a fault, but I cant give it the 'musical' accolade.

Is it the 'Black' thats producing the cold analytical sound as I have found . . . and not the amps, speakers? I still get cold from Black and Blue using Crorft/PMC. I'm looking at Benz, Grado or Clearaudio as a warmer source . . .

CJSF

I think the OP would be delighted to have your problem....I think his appears to be due to ATC being too analytical / revealing of poorer recordings.

I suspect your insight re Rega + Croft + PMC would prove useful.

 

[CJSF]

Hi CJ

Its not really anything specifically to do with the cart, i have had this feeling about my set up even before i got the TT. To be honest my TT sounds much better now i have the 2M black with replaced a Rega Bias . I'm happy with my sources at the moment, its just that the ATC gear is very neutral. I just want to enjoy my music instead analysing every note, hi hat, room sound, reverb in the mix etc.

While you're on CJ how are you getting on with the Croft now you have had it a while and how do you rate the phono stage

Cheers Ed

Hi Ed, well with all my (often self inflicted) trials and tribulations, the amp/speakers have stepped up to the plate endlessly and delivered . . . simple as that, one does not get the feeling they are adding anything of their own, just revealing the changes as I have made them, one can't ask for better than that.

As far as your kit is concerned, the Ortofon Black is cold and analytical, delivering whats in the grooves with out soul IMHO. I have gone through the ringer on this one. I would put the Croft/PMC combination on the neutral line in my book. I put a Dynovector 20x2H in the arm the other day, the sound stepped over to the warm side of neutral, just enough to make me sit up and appreciate the neutrality of the speakers and amp, and the sound I want is in that warm, involving, musical direction. I also had confirmed, warmth, detail and musicality starts at the source, anything after that is colouration.

So yes Ed, the Croft is a great amp, superb, smoothly detailed, but it is very revealing of its source, if it is presented with cold, analytical, thats what you will get, its a great tool but you have to treat it right . . . if you get my drift?8)

CJSF

 

[edplaysdrums42]

Hi CJ

Its not really anything specifically to do with the cart, i have had this feeling about my set up even before i got the TT. To be honest my TT sounds much better now i have the 2M black with replaced a Rega Bias . I'm happy with my sources at the moment, its just that the ATC gear is very neutral. I just want to enjoy my music instead analysing every note, hi hat, room sound, reverb in the mix etc.

While you're on CJ how are you getting on with the Croft now you have had it a while and how do you rate the phono stage

Cheers Ed

Hi Ed, well with all my (often self inflicted) trials and tribulations, the amp/speakers have stepped up to the plate endlessly and delivered . . . simple as that, one does not get the feeling they are adding anything of their own, just revealing the changes as I have made them, one can't ask for better than that.

As far as your kit is concerned, the Ortofon Black is cold and analytical, delivering whats in the grooves with out soul IMHO. I have gone through the ringer on this one. I would put the Croft/PMC combination on the neutral line in my book. I put a Dynovector 20x2H in the arm the other day, the sound stepped over to the warm side of neutral, just enough to make me sit up and appreciate the neutrality of the speakers and amp, and the sound I want is in that warm, involving, musical direction. I also had confirmed, warmth, detail and musicality starts at the source, anything after that is colouration.

So yes Ed, the Croft is a great amp, superb, smoothly detailed, but it is very revealing of its source, if it is presented with cold, analytical, thats what you will get, its a great tool but you have to treat it right . . . if you get my drift?8)

CJSF

Hi CJ

Thanks for the reply, i have followed your cart quest with great interest over the last few weeks, glad you're getting somewhere now. Interesting you say the Croft/PMC combo is neutral, not something i'm after. If i start looking at the source thats a whole new can of worms altogether. With my ATC set up it really depends a lot on the recording, if its a good one it sounds superb, if its not there is no hiding place so to speak which applies to all my sources. I just want something musical, something that makes you smile!

I will hopefully get a home demo with the Croft and AN AX-2's very soon, that may open up other issues in itself.

Cheers Ed

 

[chebby]

Before we all get bogged down in the characteristics of the 2M Black, does the system exhibit 'cold'/ruthless qualities with all sources or just the turntable?

 

[FennerMachine]

If the music is too analytical compare your ATC's to PMC and Spendor.

I found PMC too clean sounding, too analytical but the Spendor's massively warmer but still with accuracy and detail.

Do not discount the speakers suggested by other especially if you prefer stand mount speakers.

If spending £2000.00+ you need to take your time.

Narrow down your options by demo's at stores then get home demo's of the best of the best!

Take your time and enjoy.

 

[Macspur]

Hi Ed, As you see from my sig, I also have ATC and whilst fairly happy, I like you find it a bit waring, especially with the forwardness of the Naim CDP. It's such a shame, as some times with certain CD's, I think the sound can't be bettered, but then with others it sounds quite dreadful. I discussed my feelings with a dealer and he suggested I try Harbeth super HL5, which incidentally work very well with Croft amps, so I will be home demoing them next week. I also have my eye on a Sugden CDP, but can't affo rd both, so I'll probably have some decisions to make... not my forte.

Are you looking for something that's in between Proac and ATC (which are opposide ends of the spectrum)?

Hi Ckno,

A happy new year to you.

Yes, I guess I am. Audio note interests me too, but not sure where to find them in my area.

 

[edplaysdrums42]

Before we all get bogged down in the characteristics of the 2M Black, does the system exhibit 'cold'/ruthless qualities with all sources or just the turntable?

Hi Chebby

Its with all sources, i might add in my original post that i would like my set up to sound better at lower listening levels, IMO the ATC gear doesnt start to get going until i crank it up a bit, If i had a dedicated listening room without young children then this wouldnt be a factor. From what i have read high sensitivity speakers with lower powered amps can help with this, I have had no experience with this just what i have read.

Cheers Ed

 

[CJSF]

Hi CJ

Its not really anything specifically to do with the cart, i have had this feeling about my set up even before i got the TT. To be honest my TT sounds much better now i have the 2M black with replaced a Rega Bias . I'm happy with my sources at the moment, its just that the ATC gear is very neutral. I just want to enjoy my music instead analysing every note, hi hat, room sound, reverb in the mix etc.

While you're on CJ how are you getting on with the Croft now you have had it a while and how do you rate the phono stage

Cheers Ed

Hi Ed, well with all my (often self inflicted) trials and tribulations, the amp/speakers have stepped up to the plate endlessly and delivered . . . simple as that, one does not get the feeling they are adding anything of their own, just revealing the changes as I have made them, one can't ask for better than that.

As far as your kit is concerned, the Ortofon Black is cold and analytical, delivering whats in the grooves with out soul IMHO. I have gone through the ringer on this one. I would put the Croft/PMC combination on the neutral line in my book. I put a Dynovector 20x2H in the arm the other day, the sound stepped over to the warm side of neutral, just enough to make me sit up and appreciate the neutrality of the speakers and amp, and the sound I want is in that warm, involving, musical direction. I also had confirmed, warmth, detail and musicality starts at the source, anything after that is colouration.

So yes Ed, the Croft is a great amp, superb, smoothly detailed, but it is very revealing of its source, if it is presented with cold, analytical, thats what you will get, its a great tool but you have to treat it right . . . if you get my drift?8)

CJSF

Hi CJ

Thanks for the reply, i have followed your cart quest with great interest over the last few weeks, glad you're getting somewhere now. Interesting you say the Croft/PMC combo is neutral, not something i'm after. If i start looking at the source thats a whole new can of worms altogether. With my ATC set up it really depends a lot on the recording, if its a good one it sounds superb, if its not there is no hiding place so to speak which applies to all my sources. I just want something musical, something that makes you smile!

I will hopefully get a home demo with the Croft and AN AX-2's very soon, that may open up other issues in itself.

Cheers Ed

??? a bad recording is a bad recording, you cant change that? I get this with Croft, neutral it is, but its smooth, musical and very 'come hither' if thats on the recording, CD or vinyl. Not sure one can put that into a system with out inducing colouration, then, to my way of thinking, one gets a 'valve sound', the '80's sound', an 'analogue sound' . . . something I thought we tried to avoid.

However Ed, if thats what you want, go grab it with both hands, I suppose, smooth can be construed as warm in a valve based amp, it certainly delivers punch and drive in a very controlled dynamic way from its 4 mosfets!

CJSF

 

[CnoEvil]

Hi CJ

Interesting you say the Croft/PMC combo is neutral, not something i'm after. If i start looking at the source thats a whole new can of worms altogether.

I will hopefully get a home demo with the Croft and AN AX-2's very soon, that may open up other issues in itself.

Cheers Ed

I think you can rest assured that Croft + Audio Note/PMC, will sound very different to ATC.

Peoples' understanding of neutral can vary. I don't think ATC would make it through CJ's door.

 

[CnoEvil]

Are you looking for something that's in between Proac and ATC (which are opposide ends of the spectrum)?

Hi Ckno,

A happy new year to you.

Yes, I guess I am. Audio note interests me too, but not sure where to find them in my area.

[/quote]

Happy New Year to as well my friend.

I'm sorry the SCM 40s are not working out (I was worried they might be too revealing on the less good recordings).

The person to help with Audio Note is Martin Grennall, who is more than helpful, and can be contacted: martingrennall@audionote.co.uk

Their speakers sound awesome on the end of their own kit (and designed to be in/near the corners). Have a look at AN-K or AN-J.

Also PMC and Kef R series might also be worth checking out. I was impressed with some Kef R700 that I've recently heard.

 

[Electro]

Hi Electro

Thanks for your reply, I will make sure i get to audtion some. Are the qualities you mention of PMC's across the range or with just specific models?

Cheers Ed

I have not heard any of the new 20 series yet so I can't really comment on those , I have heard the fact 8 speakers and they were very different to the i series and not to my taste .

My description is really based on the i series and their predecessors the + series of which I have heard most models .

The current i series range tonally are very similar to each other but you get more of everything the further up the range you go and they all have the same qualities I mentioned .

My personal favorite is the tiny DB1i which IMO will be a future classic they are really quite special , and even though I have the much larger PB1i, s I could easily live with the little DB1i,s !

So really just choose the model that suits you room and budget, it really is that easy

.

 

[edplaysdrums42]

Thanks Electro

It will interesting to find how much my amp plays a part in this, i suspect quite a lot.

Thanks to everyone who has replied, much appreciated 🙂

Watch this space!

Cheers Ed 😉

 

[edplaysdrums42]

Thanks Electro

It will interesting to find how much my amp plays a part in this, i suspect quite a lot.

Thanks to everyone who has replied, much appreciated 🙂

Watch this space!

Cheers Ed 😉

oops double post and cant delete it. 😳