Pioneer SC-LX81 Review changed???

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Cofnchtr

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Andrew Everard:
Big Aura:Then get Sony to give you a few for a competition!!

You mean you missed the 'win a few Sony STR-DA5400ES receivers' competition?

Hi,

Mmmmm - that reminds me, I never did receive my 1st prize...any chance of sending it recorded?!?!

Cheers,

Cofnchtr
 

Andrew Everard

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Rob801:Not to beat a dead horse, but why is it more difficult to put an issue date on a review then on a news story? Just curious ;-).

Could attempt to give you an answer, but it would only make me angry. Yes, it's logical; yes, it's a great idea; yes, you'd think it was simple. Indeed the review date is there, in the content management system we use to input reviews. But apparently, getting it onto the page is roughly akin to cracking time-travel, and about as expensive, as is keeping old reviews on the site but just putting a 'discontinued' flag on them.

But rather as I couldn't print the magazine if I had to, how we get round these problems eludes me.Or indeed us. I feel a Peter Finch moment coming on...
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strobo

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I've just come across this thread, and it makes interesting reading. Strange I can just about see both sides (I'm sitting on the fence here methinks).

The downgrading of stars argument makes a lot of sense in the context of the market at that moment in time, and is ideal for anybody looking for the latest product. This seemingly keeps the ratings relevent to all current products. It's perfect as a quick glance way of seeing "what's hot and what's not", although of course as with any adjustable rating system, it does fall foul of those who feel the need to have all their gear five star rated, otherwise the world will end. But then they have more to fear from their bank managers...

The part where it falls down is where products are replaced/unpgraded - and therefore reviewed/retested - at differing intervals, if at all. As has been suggested up the thread an older device could still show as a five star product when a lot of more recent products have been downgraded from their five stars, simply because this particular device hasn't been retested (I guess if a manufacturer chooses not to re-submit their device for testing, this could easily be the case). Now to somebody with a few quid to spend on the latest top of the range five star product this doesn't matter, but for somebody hunting out a bargain, this older device appears to be a five star product, but when compared with newer equivalents may not even manage a two star review.

I can see exactly what Andrew getting at in that downgrading products in this context, and ‚n masse, is going to be very difficult. However, I wonder if there may be a tiny get-out. In the occasional group test, where an older product is still available in the category, and it achieved a suitably high rating first time out (five star/group test winner etc), would it be worth including the older product in the test? In this way, as an ongoing course of action, the older products in the Buyers Guide would slowly be re-graded according to the current market, and the readers will either see a bargain gem holding its own against newer opposition, or in the case of kit that's shows its age an insight into just how far the technology has moved on. Surely this would satisfy all the doubters, and for those of us mere mortals not in a position to have heard all these fantastic pieces of kit, it might just open up new doors (or close some in the case of kit that has aged badly). Of course if the manufacturer refuses to supply the kit for review then it makes things a little difficult, but then that could be mentioned in the grouptest and the ratings in the Buyers Guide pulled. The threat of losing their place in the Buyers Guide would surely be enough for a manufactuer to play ball on this one.

The only other ways I can see are to highlight grouptest winners in the Buyers Guide, maybe with different coloured stars. And maybe do the same for Award winners (didn't this happen in years gone by?). Then for example a potential buyer in three months time could look at the Buyers Guide and from the review dates, ascertain that the AV Receivers above were all feature in the same issue, and the Sony was clearly the winner.

The only way I can see to satisfy the people who must always have the top rated products is to introduce a larger scale, say 1-10 stars, and hardly ever use 10. With a five star system people tend to only want four or five star products. With ten stars, people will be happy with anything over six. I'm not a fan of this option as going down this can carry on to the N'th degree, and you end up doing million star ratings just to ensure the highest degree of accuracy in your ratings - when actually reading the review is what the READER should be doing to find out what they need to know.

Whinge over.

EDIT ******, another post that makes War & Peace look like a Mills & Boon.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
If i bought a product that was right for me sounded great to my ears and had the features i needed why should i worry about how stars its got????
 
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Anonymous

Guest
I have a simple solution. Do away the the Star system completely. It is a very simplistic and subjective mechanism.

Why not comment on all aspects of performance and connectivity and let the buyers choose based on their own preferences. Buyer one may place musicality above all else, buyer two may have a taste for a massively powerful sound, buyer three may want ultimate connectivity with Home Cinema performance paramount etc etc. In each price category there will be products that do some things better than others but it would be very rare (I think) for one product to cover all bases.

This would be a genuinely useful Buyers Guide, though of course, the reviews would have to go into far greater detail than they currently do.
 

Sonic Dreamer

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ukgthor:

So after fours months of waiting, I still do not have my SC-LX81 and it's moved from a 5 star rating to a 4 star rating.

I chased my dealer this morning, and they still have no idea on when it will be available, however he did inform me that an updated version (SC-LX82 ?) will be released by Pioneer in September.... it just gets better and better...

I was speaking to Redhorn AV, on Baker Street, London. They will get maybe five unallocated LX81s next week (they apparently have a good relationship with Pioneer), so you could always give them a call. I know as I demoed it and asked about availability.

I am going for a Yamaha Z7, because of the warm, rich sound; I found the LX81 superb for action/dialogue based films but poor for music content and on the Stone's "Shine A Light" Blue-ray the vocals were very thin.

SonicD
 
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Anonymous

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Sonic Dreamer:ukgthor:

So after fours months of waiting, I still do not have my SC-LX81 and it's moved from a 5 star rating to a 4 star rating.

I chased my dealer this morning, and they still have no idea on when it will be available, however he did inform me that an updated version (SC-LX82 ?) will be released by Pioneer in September.... it just gets better and better...

I was speaking to Redhorn AV, on Baker Street, London. They will get maybe five unallocated LX81s next week (they apparently have a good relationship with Pioneer), so you could always give them a call. I know as I demoed it and asked about availability.

I am going for a Yamaha Z7, because of the warm, rich sound; I found the LX81 superb for action/dialogue based films but poor for music content and on the Stone's "Shine A Light" Blue-ray the vocals were very thin.

SonicD

A lot of people here in Denmark have bought from Krish AV (in London), and when I wrote to him a couple of weeks ago (+/-) he was planning on getting some LX-81's in about 8 days...so he should also have them in stock (if they haven't been sold already). The price he quoted me is also lower than any price I've been able to find on-line in the UK. They're not listed on-line but if you write or call he might be able to work something out.

Was there any mention of what might be updated if there really is an upgraded version of the 81 coming out in Sept.?
 

2cool

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this is a good read i found the pioneer was a bit hard done by but lets be honest the pioneer wins for me on looks alone and the sony well the display is tiny the colour is dull and the brand is now common before you get to the quality of sound you will be put off.
 
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Anonymous

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2cool:this is a good read i found the pioneer was a bit hard done by but lets be honest the pioneer wins for me on looks alone and the sony well the display is tiny the colour is dull and the brand is now common before you get to the quality of sound you will be put off.

I agree. The review of the Sony should make me want to go out and buy it, but other than the description of the sound there's nothing that makes me say wow about it and I haven't been lured away from the LX-81 yet (and although I really like Pioneer, I don't consider myself a fan boy...yet, so that's not the reason) .

The fact is that the Pioneer still offers some things that the Sony doesn't (for me at least) and that is IMO a great design, ethernet connectivity (standard), compatability with my TV, and a sound that, compared to what I have now, couldn't be anything but absolutly fantastic. Plus the fact that despite the five star review of the Sony, I've been able to find some negative things about it (starting with the comment section in the What HiFi? review, and the fact that most of the other reviews I've read have been 4 star reviews) and I have been hard pressed to find any negative comments about the LX81...except for the one earlier about the vocals (but I'm sure someone will show me the way
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).

Now that I've gotten over the initial shock of the review being changed, and I know what to expect in the future, it doesn't really seem like that big a deal any more (still don't agree with the method though). It was just that out of all the other types of reviews that I read (cars, movies, other electronics, musical equipment, music software, you name it), I have NEVER experienced a review being changed before... This was a first for me.

Anyway, I'm still looking forward to reading the reviews here...and am looking forward to the July issue for the Panasonic HDD/BDR review!
 
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Anonymous

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changing the stars is the right thing to do in my opinion as things generally do improve with each release, so a 3yr old 5* rated product would not generally be as good as a 1 week old 5* rated product.

I dont know how the whathifi website is designed, but could your section with the pro's and cons and star rating, not be taken from a simple excel spreadsheet, so that when a new product arrives in the same price bracket, if this product is better you can change the star rating for all other recievers in the same class on the spreadsheet, and add a comment saying surpassed by ********* and then upload this to the server. It would literally take minutes to do
 
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Anonymous

Guest
I'm really annoyed that the Yamaha RX-V3900 dropped down to 4 Stars as my listening enjoyment will now decrease because it is rated 4 Stars instead of 5 Stars!!!

Seriously guys, WHF will continue to change the ratings as they see fit when products are retested and the only way to truly understand how all the products rate versus one another is by reading the magazine and also the website on a regular basis. All the reviews in the magazine do have a review date so that helps put things into perspective.

For example, while the Onkyo 906 wasn't retested in the latest group test and therefore still hangs onto its 4 Star rating, regular readers will know from a previous group test that it rates below all the 4 amps in the recent group test.
 
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Anonymous

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seakingadvice:I'm really annoyed that the Yamaha RX-V3900 dropped down to 4 Stars as my listening enjoyment will now decrease because it is rated 4 Stars instead of 5 Stars!!!

Indeed. I've given my RX-V3900 a good talking too. I mean, 4th out of 4 in the latest Supertest and downgraded to 4 stars - not good enough imo
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Now that all the manafacturers have produced their new product lists, what will happen if one of the new amps comprehensively beats the Sony and that is downgraded to 4 stars? That would mean that the SC-LX81 and the RX-V3900 are now 3 star amps!! Just a thought...
 
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Anonymous

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My sony 6400es (with ethernet!) arrives monday...

Say no more.
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Anonymous

Guest
It may be an idea to list possible speaker matches with amps and speakers to avoid - as the pod cast clearly states, that care needs to be taken when matching speakers with the new 5 star Sony amp.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
I have also been waiting since the end of March for a Pioneer SC-LX81 to go with my KRP-500A, according to Pioneer GB the reason is the good reviews have resulted in an unprescedented demand for this amp which has cleared all stocks in europe and the earliest expectation to fill existing orders is mid June, otherwise the options are cancel and wait until September for the launch of the SC-LX82 (not prepared for £5k spend to step up to the top of the range); meanwhile the dealer has loaned me a Marantz until he can fill my order for one or the other.

Rod.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
Clare Newsome:Yep, we'd hope to get the new higher-end Pioneer receivers in for test for our Awards (announced October). Meanwhile the new sub-£700 Pioneer receiver range is starting to hit shops.

Has there been any mention/rumers of what the improvements might be. If it is extra features (IE. XM/DABB radio and the like) then I I'd just as well buy the LX-81, but if it is improvements in the ICE Power amps and sound7picture processing then I might be tempted to wait a bit longer.
 

The_Lhc

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Oct 16, 2008
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Rob801:Clare Newsome:Yep, we'd hope to get the new higher-end Pioneer receivers in for test for our Awards (announced October). Meanwhile the new sub-£700 Pioneer receiver range is starting to hit shops.

Has there been any mention/rumers of what the improvements might be. If it is extra features (IE. XM/DABB radio and the like) then I I'd just as well buy the LX-81, but if it is improvements in the ICE Power amps and sound7picture processing then I might be tempted to wait a bit longer.

You might not have any choice, I'm not convinced any more amps are going to turn up on these shores before the new range is released.
 
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Anonymous

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As many others have stated the star system used by whathifi is very flawed. Sure it would be fair to change star ratings as new and better products appear, but unfortunately this is not reflected across the board with each product reviewed. Some stay 5 stars or 4 stars for ages, whilst others change frequently. And some gain an advantage by others dropping a star when they are left alone.

For example the Pioneer SC-LX81 is now a 4 star rating, with its previous nearest competitor the yamaha 3900 also now 4 stars (both previously 5 star performers) and the new Sony is 5 star king. Yet the Pioneer SC-LX71 and various other 4 star amps which Whathifi rated in previous reviews as allegedly being inferior to the SC-LX81 and the Yamaha 3900, now share the same 4 star rating simply because they haven't been reviewed again, or taken part in another group test.

How confusing for your readers!! If you were an inexperienced buyer would you take a 4 star Pioneer SC-LX81 or Yamaha 3900, or get the much cheaper also 4 star Pioneer SC-LX71 or one of the other same category cheaper 4 star units? Remember if you are not a regular you wouldn't be aware what one product previously rated in other reviews etc, especially when these reviews are changed or removed from the site as has been done.

Also what happens if/when the Sony is toppled and it becomes a 4 star performer. If the Pioneer SC-LX81 and Yamaha 3900 also feature in this review and subsequently drop to 3 stars, then imagine the Pioneer SC-LX71 if not reviewed staying a 4 star, while the SC-LX81 and Yahama 3900 drop to 3. A stupid and flawed system!! Or does the Sony drop to 4 stars joining the SC-LX81 and 3900, further confusing readers and buyers? Why Whathifi didnt just leave both the SC-LX81 and Yamaha 3900 5 star performers, but conclude the Sony the test winner if that was the case I will never understand.

I note that whathifi defend this system vigorously, but surely the high number of posts questioning its accuracy and subsequent confusion must make whathifi wonder if a better rating system is needed?

No time for arrogance, surely loyal readers opinions count for something. Why have the star rating if all it does is confuse and alienate your more informed readers, not to mention the result on newbies. Come on whathifi you can do better then this, there has to be a fairer more accurate system. If not your reviews will quickly lose relevance, and readers will stay away.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
Very well put wilsact, now just wait for the replies backing and defending the WHF system of review ratings.

Whether I have products which change stars or not - it is ridiculous.

As a subscriber to the magazine I am not impressed.

On that note as well how about some loyalty rewards for subscribers, I never get asked 'would you like your subscription renewed' the payment is just taken. Then you see an offer to new subscribers for a FOC gift. Don't get me wrong I benefited from a very nice (albeit now a 4 star product) Chord Silver HDMI cable which strangely enough is still just as good as when it was 5 star rated. I may cancel my subscription for 6 months and see what's on offer - who knows by then the review rating process may have been reviewed it's self.

Yours disappointingly,

.
 

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