Pioneer - SC-LX75 vs SC-LX85 I cant tell the difference !!!

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U

umbucker

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Feb 20, 2008
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I have just been on Pioneers website to check out the SC-LX85 which I have had my eye on for some time! I thought I would do a Spec Compare to see exactly what this amp has over the £500 cheaper SC-LX75. THe only thing I could see was that the remote control was RF on the 85, everything else was identical!! Same Power out put - Same inputs/outputs - Same Multi Channel Processing - Same Apple compatibility....

Surely this cannot be right ? £500 (25%) more expensive just so you dont have to point the remote towards the unit!!!

THis makes me really want the SC-LX75 and a £500 in my wallet - but why is everyone raving about the SC-LX85 ???
 
the likelihood is that there is absolutely no audible difference. Certainly not enough to be able to tell which is which in a blind test. Buy the cheaper one and get yourself some new films!
 
I'm pretty sure there will be some differences, but whether you will hear it will depend entirely on your other kit and speakers. It may be components and circuitry or chips (such as the DAC chips or DSP chips), that was certainly a difference between the LX73 and LX83 (from memory - so don't quote me!). Perhaps there is an error on the Pioneer website.

As always with hi-fi/home cinema kit, audition them both, if you notice a difference get the one you prefer, if not, get the cheapest.

As for the remote, if you have your kit rack at the back of the room (as I do) it is actually incredibly useful!
 
Indeed, spec sheets don't give you any idea as to the components used within an amp and the sound difference between the two.

As stated already, listen to both and then decide.
 
hi umbucker,

Been investigating these, too. The man in Audio T said small differences.

From Pioneer press release:

The top of the range SC-LX85 and SC-LX75 have a number of features that are unique:
They integrate our highly efficient Direct Energy HD amplifiers[/b] built on Class D technology[/b]. Building on experience gained from more than 4 generations of audiophile Class D implementations, our new and latest platform delivers overwhelming power free from any distortion: an amazing true multi-channel continuous power output of 810 watts over 9 channels in the SC-LX85 and 720 watts over 9 channels in the SC-LX75. The SC-LX85 can for example be used in up to 10 different channel assignment patterns, and in each case the Direct Energy HD Amplifiers drive all channels with equally high power output. The patterns include one with a 9 channel set-up in one single room while another, totally different, lets you listen to 5 channels in one room, and stereo sound in 2 other rooms - all at the same time.

The Direct Energy HD design has earned the coveted THX Ultra 2 Plus [/b](SC-LX85) / THX[/b] select 2 Plus[/b] (SC-LX75, VSX-LX55 and VSX-2021) certification. Additional certification for the SC-LX85 and SC-LX75 also comes from the world renowned AIR[/b] Studios[/b]. Its engineers have been actively involved in the tuning of the AV receivers to assure the recreation of the studio experience in the home.

Hi-bit 32[/b] and hi-sampling audio processing[/b] in the SC-LX85 and SC-LX75 revives the original sound, smoothing out distortion. A brand new DAC filter[/b] in both models, a world first for an AV receiver, lets you enjoy 3 types of sound characters through switching: slow, sharp and short. Connoisseurs will then be able to hear soft and warm, solid and tight and quick and forward music respectively.
[/list]
 
The power difference between the 7* and 8* models has always been small, but the audible difference in quality can be heard when auditioned. The 8* model has always been a higher THX spec than the 7*, so will fill larger rooms, which indicates more power. The 8* models have always had better DACs too, giving better audio quality.

Your choice will partly depend on the speaker's you're wanting to drive, and whether you want to upgrade them later, as well as the size room you're wanting to fill.
 
Hi Frank

I run Tannoy Signature Revolution... DC6T L + R...DC4LCR Centre....DC4 Rear ould you think the 85 would be a better option for these speakers ??
 
Hi David,

Have you listened to either 75 or 85 yet? I'm very interested in their performance as a stereo HiFi amp, as I have to consolidate AV and Hifi setup in the near future and current AX5Ai falls short in this mode.

Many thanks.
 
Thanks, Claire.

Look forward to your review.

Hi David,

I guessed that you were refering to those bargain-basemant KEFs - should have added a smilie.
 
tinitus said:
Hi David,

Have you listened to either 75 or 85 yet? I'm very interested in their performance as a stereo HiFi amp, as I have to consolidate AV and Hifi setup in the near future and current AX5Ai falls short in this mode.

Many thanks.
Click to expand...

The SC series is a clear step up musically to the AX5Ai , i upgraded my AX5Ai to the SC71 and musically it is superior.

Can't tell you if it's good enough for you but i can tell you it's better than the AX5Ai which i can now say in hindsight was not good with music (fantstic with Movies). Apart from component changes i put it down to Air studio tuning.

It's kept me from going seperate's which i very nearly did after i got a fatman for the kids room but now it doesn't bother me i'm happy with the music performance.

I do need to add i don't really listen to music in stereo but rather Extended Stereo which would be classed as multi channel listening...... i didn't with the AX5Ai i used stereo but with the SC71 i prefer Extended Stereo over all the other option including Direct and i listen to music alot more than i did with the AX5Ai. Really happy i like it this way as i don't feel the need to shell out a couple of grand for a separate system anymore which i did a one time.

Anyway just my opinion having gone from an AX5Ai to an SC amp.
 
Hi v1c,

Many thanks for the info. I did buy a couple of multichannel discs, SACD & DVD audio when I first got the AX5Ai/959(firewire connection so very low jitter) and now feed streamed audio to it via Apple TV. The SC-Lx 85 + LX55 would be a very big investment, so would have to cover all the bases, including internet radio performance. Look forward to a comparative test by What HiFi of this pairing against Marrantz/ Onkyu /Arcam in movie and music modes. I have brand loyalty as my pride and joy is one of the last Kuro 600Ps. - still not beaten IMHO.
 
It will be very interesting to see how the Lx85 shapes up against the 83

Reviews soon will tell - however I emplore the reviewer to get the best from the 83 before reviewing against the 85

As an 83 owner and without wishing to teach anyone to suck eggs - the auto setup will only get you close to the magic capable, even if you select an earlier record time than the stock.

After an auto setup (distances, etc) You have to use the reverb measurement and advanced mccac software - look at the graphs and manually adjust the equalizer, run a reverb again time and time again to get an even flatter curve!!

Then the real magic starts!!!

Although I am sure this method will work on most model using advanced mccac so everyone can benefit!!
 
Hi I have one too, can you perhaps take a picture to show the magic on your LX83? 🙂 I have always wondered about tweaking those settings. Thanks
 
Hello mate - taking a picture won’t really help, there is a fair bit to it - bear with me 🙂 .....

Get yourself a silent house, cup of tea – print these instructions off as you will never remember it all

I have not done a full cal in a while as I have been extremely happy so bear with me on the instructions - however to start you off.

First thing to do - save all your current settings into setup 1 - that’s done easily in the menu for data – copy all settings to 1.

Then copy all your data into Setup 2 (assuming you have run the auto cal before this) and then use that to tweak - that way once you have finished you can go back and forth on the fly to hear the difference

Download the Advanced MCCAC software from Pioneer - get a memory stick

Plug the setup mic in (put it in your main listening spot where you cal'd the setup be exact as possible as its very precise - camera tripod is best for this - get the height you sit at spot on!)

on amp go to Home -Advanced MCCAC – Option C (Manual) - then run reverb measurement

(one thing to bear in mind - dont have anything that can interfere with the reading ie. in the way of the mic - i.e. a tripod handle or anything - high frequency readings are very sensitive to this)

Then copy the data to your memory stick

Home – MCCAC Data Check – Option G copy data to memory stick

Load the info into MCCAC on your pc and look at the graphs using the AFTER setting (before shows you how bad it was to start with) Look at each channel /speaker individually and try and get your head around what you are seeing - it’s amazing - its showing you what your room is doing to the sounds from all 5 of your speakers per 8 (I think) different frequencies - to prove its right run it several times without touching anything - it will give you exact results time again !!!

Using the before setting you can see why in pure direct mode or with a non room corrected amp music can sound boomy or tinny or flat - if you are getting a room boost at 125htz (boomy) or if you are getting a boost at 4-16khz (tinny or bright) No matter if you put a £5k amp on the speakers they will still have the boom in the same placesas its the room! – this is why this amp is Sooo Gooood because you can look on a graph what your room is doing and sort it out!!!

There are 2 easiest ways to analyse the graphs for tweaking (you will be tweaking the equalizer settings after to compensate the room)

1 is side on in 2D so they look like lines rising and then steadying across the screen. From this you will clearly see gaps between the frequencies as they travel along

The other is - turn it all the way round so they look like bar graphs going up the screen again in 2D – you can see they all finish at different levels db's

If you think about it you want all the frequencies hitting you at the same volume at the same time (flat curve - reference) - the ideal graph would look identical for every frequency rising until they hit a calibrated level i.e. 80db and then they would travel along exactly straight (this is why you can look at in 3D – if it was like that then all the lines on the graph would be drawn over each other and they would only appear as 1 line in 2D)

My setup is miles off that before and even after the auto cal - but it’s much closer with the auto cal. I have found the auto cal (using the each channel adjust setting when calibrating is the best as all 5 speakers are in different parts of an untreated room and it tries to get a flat curve for each speaker individually - however its not uniform across the 5 speakers will explain that in a minute. It also does its best to get them all flat but is not as good as you can do with a lot patience and some basic knowledge

So when tweaking - you need to select a level i.e. 80db and that’s what you are trying to get all the frequencies to hit for all 5 speakers - when you spin it round to a bar graph you can see easier where they all stop and again the same db level is what you want

It’s painful however you have to look at each channel in the MCCAC software and then note down on paper how many decibels each frequency of the 8 you think have to be increased or lowered and by how many decibels until they are on the 80db you have selected as your cal level.

So it could be 125 htz – 1 db, 250htz + 1.5 db etc for them all

If they all show up closer to 85 db then use that as your cal level, or closer to 75 use that - it doesn’t matter as long as all 5 are the same (uniform that I mentioned before) - you can use the trim to raise and lower all the frequencies at the same time - but I have found its best to leave that alone as it seems the throw the results off more than manually adjusting each frequency of the equalizer

It can be as low a tweak as 0.5 db that’s needed - but if you have a problem frequency it might be as much as +/- 6 decibels - therefore the auto cal has been miles off.

Therefore go into the amp menu – Home - Advanced MCCAC – Option C Manual – Equalizer Adjust

Make your adjustments and run the reverb measurement again – load the info onto your memory stick again on the amp and then load it up again on your pc and see how much closer you are to them all being the same.

It’s not as simple as getting it right the first time you might have to do it again and again – Sometimes it takes a 1.5db adjustment to get an actual 0.5 db difference in the graphs. Sometimes you have to look at it from the side and then as a bar graph to notice the adjustment needed – is why you can use the software to spin it 360

I promise you the closer you can get all the lines together / finishing at the same level the better your system will sound ! It makes a Massive difference to the overall sound you can improve it by about 50% if you ask me – in terms of it sounding about 50% better overall Overall

Aims – you are ultimately trying to get a completely flat uniform curve for all the frequencies across all 5 of your speakers, once turned round to a bar graph they should all be at the same or very close db levels – if they all hit you at the same db then you will be hearing a true reference curve!Its not the rising of the curve thats important its the level it finishes at, if they all rise the same that even better.

Take your time and be patient depending on your speakers/ room, it can be hard to get it right – my B&W 805 are real sods – where as my B&W HTM4s is easy

Loads of Important things to consider –

1. Ignore the frequencies below your cross over point – if you cross over at 80htz there is no need to adjust the 60htz if it even lets you – but its good to know what response your getting - you may see a boom there or no 60 htz bass then you will know that’s what you are getting from your front 2 speakers if you run the amp in pure direct mode for stereo!!

2. Have a look and think about the rate at which your frequencies are climbing and hitting the top db but don’t worry too much (you want them as similar as possible) – some of this is caused by silly things – speaker not being solid on the ground (can be changed) or it being very close to a wall (cant be changed)

3. Don’t expect to get them perfect – you want them as close as possible, 0.5-1db I would accept slightly more if I have to with a problem frequency

4. Dont Move your mic – leave it where it is until you are finished – refrain from listening until you are happy will all the frequencies across all 5 speakers then test it.

5. Problem frequencies – I have a problem with 16khtz on my front main 2 speakers B&W 805 – I have changed the tweeter and Nautilus tube and its still the same – its the room. It doesn’t matter how much I change the equalizer the 16khtz frequency rises up and off the chart for both front left and right – I have had to guestimate the 16khtz equalizer reduction amount based on the graph and listening to what sounds best to me

6. Make sure you have all your sound tv and blu ray upscaled to 32bit – can sound bright until you have a proper cal done yourself then it sounds amazing!

7. Also make sure you have full band phase control on as its essential for best sound!!

Once you hear a full reference flat (or close to) curve based system you will hear where it is wrong in other systems and in your own system before – it brings true balance and brings out even more intricate details.

It works for music as much as it does films/ tv – if you go from your cal to Pure Direct its interesting to hear the difference – reference is not always preference until you realise anything other than reference means you are hearing / liking distortion fact

Once you hear and actually see what the room correction is doing and how it benefits the sound look to invest in a DSPeaker Antimode - £220ish it does exactly the same for your sub – it is awesome !!

I hope this helps – Me and my cousin (both LX 83 owners) worked this out between us trust me this is how you get the full magic from your LX-83 !!!!! Any questions ask? Also turn PQLS on your blu ray I think it is excellent now with the newer firmware
 
:grin: Hi. I thought I'd join in on this as I have just bought a LX 75. I have been listening to AV amps for a few years now to see if I can improve on my ARCAM amp for stereo. At last I have managed it. Using the biamp feature on the LX 75 it blows away the ARCAM. This is the very first time I have been able to beat the ARCAM on stereo quality. I have KEF Q300s. Reading the manual which doubles up for LX 75 and LX 85 there is no difference in audio section between the two, except the 85 has a board to enable input of analogue from 7 channel audio. The power output into 8 ohms is 140W for both models per channel( 9 amps onboard). I've yet to try the 75 in home cinema mode. The manual is very complex and will take some getting into. Will post back when I have mastered it.
 
ellisdj said:
I hope this helps – Me and my cousin (both LX 83 owners) worked this out between us trust me this is how you get the full magic from your LX-83 !!!!! Any questions ask? Also turn PQLS on your blu ray I think it is excellent now with the newer firmware
Click to expand...

Great write-up of using MCCAC.

Having about 10 years ago used the Tag AV32 room correction and ETF5/RoomEQ programs on a laptop, it does though seem rather basic in only having 8 frequencies to adjust? With the TAG we were able to adjust every frequency and the program would apply 8 filters overall per speaker. Each frequency had a Q setting (width of frequency adjusted) and then you could play with the graphs on the laptop altering manually to fine tune and 'see' the expected results of your changes.

Have things moved on and that detail is not now required, or is this a cut down version even though many years later?

I had assumed Odyssey and MCCAC would have moved on and made adjusting easier, but is altering 8 frequencies enough?

I was considering the Pioneer LX83 a year ago until I read that it didn't adjust the sub!! Now have an Antimode that does this - only all by itself and very well it seems ;-)
 
ellisdj said:
Get yourself a silent house, cup of tea – print these instructions off as you will never remember it all.....
Click to expand...

wowza. gonna try this. thanks for taking the time to share. same principal should work with my LX53 as well right?
 
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