Pioneer - SC-LX75 vs SC-LX85 I cant tell the difference !!!

[Clare Newsome]

Pioneer SC-LX85 review is in the First Tests section of our Awards issue, which goes on sale 21st October - not long to wait now!

 

[Amadeus1756]

Pioneer SC-LX85 review is in the First Tests section of our Awards issue, which goes on sale 21st October - not long to wait now!

YOu say that but when you're waiting for something, it seems like an eternity!

Thanks Clare.

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks Clare can't wait.

 

[Amadeus1756]

Does the '85 have better video processing (upscaling)?

I thought I'd read something that implied it did but can't find any mention of it now.

thanks

 

[Anonymous]

Frank,

There is no real difference in sound performance other than the LX85 has a slightly larger Power Supply which gives it an extra 10W RMS per channel output which gains it the THX Ultra certification. They have the same Op Amps, DACs, Amps, 32 bit internal sample size, etc.

The key differences are in functionality and features. For instance the LX85 has pre amp phono inputs for the amp channels so that you can use an external processor, and an RF remote control (that sells for £400 on its own) and would allow you to control an amplifier that is hidden away in an equipment room in a professional home cinema installation.....

I purchased an LX75 for £1100 from Best Buy, and i'm extremely happy to save 900 quid for 10 Watts per channel. None of the functional differences impact me.

 

[michael hoy]

Frank,

There is no real difference in sound performance other than the LX85 has a slightly larger Power Supply which gives it an extra 10W RMS per channel output which gains it the THX Ultra certification. They have the same Op Amps, DACs, Amps, 32 bit internal sample size, etc.

The key differences are in functionality and features. For instance the LX85 has pre amp phono inputs for the amp channels so that you can use an external processor, and an RF remote control (that sells for £400 on its own) and would allow you to control an amplifier that is hidden away in an equipment room in a professional home cinema installation.....

I purchased an LX75 for £1100 from Best Buy, and i'm extremely happy to save 900 quid for 10 Watts per channel. None of the functional differences impact me.

It is David actually, not Frank

What speakers are you using the 75 with?

 

[ellisdj]

Hello mate - taking a picture won’t really help, there is a fair bit to it - bear with me .....

Get yourself a silent house, cup of tea – print these instructions off as you will never remember it all

I have not done a full cal in a while as I have been extremely happy so bear with me on the instructions - however to start you off.

First thing to do - save all your current settings into setup 1 - that’s done easily in the menu for data – copy all settings to 1.

Then copy all your data into Setup 2 (assuming you have run the auto cal before this) and then use that to tweak - that way once you have finished you can go back and forth on the fly to hear the difference

Download the Advanced MCCAC software from Pioneer - get a memory stick

Plug the setup mic in (put it in your main listening spot where you cal'd the setup be exact as possible as its very precise - camera tripod is best for this - get the height you sit at spot on!)

on amp go to Home -Advanced MCCAC – Option C (Manual) - then run reverb measurement

(one thing to bear in mind - dont have anything that can interfere with the reading ie. in the way of the mic - i.e. a tripod handle or anything - high frequency readings are very sensitive to this)

Then copy the data to your memory stick

Home – MCCAC Data Check – Option G copy data to memory stick

Load the info into MCCAC on your pc and look at the graphs using the AFTER setting (before shows you how bad it was to start with) Look at each channel /speaker individually and try and get your head around what you are seeing - it’s amazing - its showing you what your room is doing to the sounds from all 5 of your speakers per 8 (I think) different frequencies - to prove its right run it several times without touching anything - it will give you exact results time again !!!

Using the before setting you can see why in pure direct mode or with a non room corrected amp music can sound boomy or tinny or flat - if you are getting a room boost at 125htz (boomy) or if you are getting a boost at 4-16khz (tinny or bright) No matter if you put a £5k amp on the speakers they will still have the boom in the same placesas its the room! – this is why this amp is Sooo Gooood because you can look on a graph what your room is doing and sort it out!!!

There are 2 easiest ways to analyse the graphs for tweaking (you will be tweaking the equalizer settings after to compensate the room)

1 is side on in 2D so they look like lines rising and then steadying across the screen. From this you will clearly see gaps between the frequencies as they travel along

The other is - turn it all the way round so they look like bar graphs going up the screen again in 2D – you can see they all finish at different levels db's

If you think about it you want all the frequencies hitting you at the same volume at the same time (flat curve - reference) - the ideal graph would look identical for every frequency rising until they hit a calibrated level i.e. 80db and then they would travel along exactly straight (this is why you can look at in 3D – if it was like that then all the lines on the graph would be drawn over each other and they would only appear as 1 line in 2D)

My setup is miles off that before and even after the auto cal - but it’s much closer with the auto cal. I have found the auto cal (using the each channel adjust setting when calibrating is the best as all 5 speakers are in different parts of an untreated room and it tries to get a flat curve for each speaker individually - however its not uniform across the 5 speakers will explain that in a minute. It also does its best to get them all flat but is not as good as you can do with a lot patience and some basic knowledge

So when tweaking - you need to select a level i.e. 80db and that’s what you are trying to get all the frequencies to hit for all 5 speakers - when you spin it round to a bar graph you can see easier where they all stop and again the same db level is what you want

It’s painful however you have to look at each channel in the MCCAC software and then note down on paper how many decibels each frequency of the 8 you think have to be increased or lowered and by how many decibels until they are on the 80db you have selected as your cal level.

So it could be 125 htz – 1 db, 250htz + 1.5 db etc for them all

If they all show up closer to 85 db then use that as your cal level, or closer to 75 use that - it doesn’t matter as long as all 5 are the same (uniform that I mentioned before) - you can use the trim to raise and lower all the frequencies at the same time - but I have found its best to leave that alone as it seems the throw the results off more than manually adjusting each frequency of the equalizer

It can be as low a tweak as 0.5 db that’s needed - but if you have a problem frequency it might be as much as +/- 6 decibels - therefore the auto cal has been miles off.

Therefore go into the amp menu – Home - Advanced MCCAC – Option C Manual – Equalizer Adjust

Make your adjustments and run the reverb measurement again – load the info onto your memory stick again on the amp and then load it up again on your pc and see how much closer you are to them all being the same.

It’s not as simple as getting it right the first time you might have to do it again and again – Sometimes it takes a 1.5db adjustment to get an actual 0.5 db difference in the graphs. Sometimes you have to look at it from the side and then as a bar graph to notice the adjustment needed – is why you can use the software to spin it 360

I promise you the closer you can get all the lines together / finishing at the same level the better your system will sound ! It makes a Massive difference to the overall sound you can improve it by about 50% if you ask me – in terms of it sounding about 50% better overall Overall

Aims – you are ultimately trying to get a completely flat uniform curve for all the frequencies across all 5 of your speakers, once turned round to a bar graph they should all be at the same or very close db levels – if they all hit you at the same db then you will be hearing a true reference curve!Its not the rising of the curve thats important its the level it finishes at, if they all rise the same that even better.

Take your time and be patient depending on your speakers/ room, it can be hard to get it right – my B&W 805 are real sods – where as my B&W HTM4s is easy

Loads of Important things to consider –

1. Ignore the frequencies below your cross over point – if you cross over at 80htz there is no need to adjust the 60htz if it even lets you – but its good to know what response your getting - you may see a boom there or no 60 htz bass then you will know that’s what you are getting from your front 2 speakers if you run the amp in pure direct mode for stereo!!

2. Have a look and think about the rate at which your frequencies are climbing and hitting the top db but don’t worry too much (you want them as similar as possible) – some of this is caused by silly things – speaker not being solid on the ground (can be changed) or it being very close to a wall (cant be changed)

3. Don’t expect to get them perfect – you want them as close as possible, 0.5-1db I would accept slightly more if I have to with a problem frequency

4. Dont Move your mic – leave it where it is until you are finished – refrain from listening until you are happy will all the frequencies across all 5 speakers then test it.

5. Problem frequencies – I have a problem with 16khtz on my front main 2 speakers B&W 805 – I have changed the tweeter and Nautilus tube and its still the same – its the room. It doesn’t matter how much I change the equalizer the 16khtz frequency rises up and off the chart for both front left and right – I have had to guestimate the 16khtz equalizer reduction amount based on the graph and listening to what sounds best to me

6. Make sure you have all your sound tv and blu ray upscaled to 32bit – can sound bright until you have a proper cal done yourself then it sounds amazing!

7. Also make sure you have full band phase control on as its essential for best sound!!

Once you hear a full reference flat (or close to) curve based system you will hear where it is wrong in other systems and in your own system before – it brings true balance and brings out even more intricate details.

It works for music as much as it does films/ tv – if you go from your cal to Pure Direct its interesting to hear the difference – reference is not always preference until you realise anything other than reference means you are hearing / liking distortion fact

Once you hear and actually see what the room correction is doing and how it benefits the sound look to invest in a DSPeaker Antimode - £220ish it does exactly the same for your sub – it is awesome !!

I hope this helps – Me and my cousin (both LX 83 owners) worked this out between us trust me this is how you get the full magic from your LX-83 !!!!! Any questions ask? Also turn PQLS on your blu ray I think it is excellent now with the newer firmware

I have spent a bit of time recently getting even better sound from my LX83 and thought I would pass this info onto the people who read this post

Before after I would run the mccac full auto - then re-run auto with the speakers set to small and crossover @ 80htz I would go in equalize all the channels manually running a reverb measurement and adjusting the eq to get a flat reponse across all the frequencies

A discovery between me and my cousin is that its best to leave the 125htz and 250htz alone - this way MCCAC integrates your bass with your sub using standing wave. It appears to over equalize the bass from my front L&R speakers to compensate for dips i get in my room reponse at some freqs between 80htz and 250htz, but then lowers itself using standing wave to balance the sound in between those freq - thats clever sh**.

I have been running tests using Room Equalisation Wizard and it clearly shows this, I can only test the fron L&R this way, Its most liekly does it to the centre and rears too - clever clever sh**

Therefore in addition to what I have previously posted - run a reverb measurement and equlaise all your frequencies above 250htz to get them as flat as possible. This will still hugely improve the sound over the MCCAC auto calibration.

Second Addition - is the use of X Curve

I have previously posted that I would see a spike in the 16khtz reading from MCCAC Reverb measurement - previously I would by ear reduce the 16khtz until it sounded best - that was a big mistake!!

Instead I have left the 16ktz eq alone and added X Curve to -1.0 DB.

Now you would assume by adding X Curve to your system that you might lose sparkle - well the opposite is true - it allows more to actually come through, especially in the upper mid range - the treble is actaully masking detail - this is true with my B&W 805 dpeakers and my cousins Monitor Audio Apex so its likely true with all speakers.

I have read people complaining about the LX83 sounding too bright - well thats likely a result of the MCCAC Auto calibration giving an extremely upfront sound and the result of a high frequency boost the ROOM they are in is doing to the sound. Its very common and is why a lot of auto calibration softwares tail off the treble automatically and cinema use X Curve especially in old days.

To Finalise - quick guide Get the Best from MCCAC and LX83

Run - MCCAC Full Auto - Each Channel Adjust select a memory No (1 for example)

Change speakers to small and 80htz cross over

Run MCCAC Auto setup B keep speaker settings same again each channel adjust over same memory no as last setup (no need to run other 2 setups i.e. symmetry / the other one)

Copy all settings to next memory slot (if used 1 copy all to 2 ect) Select the new memory slot i.e. 2

Leave mic where is (dont be tempted to move it to listen) run reverb measurement - analyse result in MCCAC Software and increase / lower all frequencies to get them flat all at same db level (I use 68db) Keep running reverb measurements and adjusting the eq until all 5/ 7 speakers have as flat reponse as you can get

Dont Touch the 125Htz and 250Htz

Once all are flat then you can listen to Your Adjusted setup against the MCCAC auto by going between the 2 memory settings

Add XCURVE - listen to music (its easier to hear) and start adding X Curve and listen - the more you add the more detail you seem to hear, however it obviously gets to a point where it negates the sound I have ended up using -1.0db

I hope this helps anyone lookign to get more from their LX83 - this amp is immense, but only so good using the auto setup (its obvious you can get better sound if you know what your doing than an automatic setup)