Pioneer LX57 vs Pioneer LX86 vs Arcam AVR 400 vs Anthem MRX 500

[RLCCM]

Which Amp?

Looking at a home theatre/projector, in a relatively large and open room. Except for the sub (KEF KUBE 1, that is not regularly used) the speaker set is being upgraded at the same time, I am thinking to KEF LS50's or R300's (with an R200c centre), though other suggestions welcome. I'm updating from an ageing Arcam AVR 200.

Use will be mostly movies though with some gaming and some stereo music for Jazz too - so musicality is still important. And with various clear-out offers they all come in roughly between £1000-£1200.

Does the newer LX57 jump the older LX86 for quality? Or does the quality of the originally more expensive LX86 beat the younger upstart still? How will the ARCAM and Anthem amps fit in to this? Are the musicality of these so far superior? or is the pioneer actually still pretty good for musicality? And in films, could the Arcam or Anthem match the excitement of a Pioneer?

Please comment, vote, discuss and generally praise/slander to ones hearts content!

 

[bigboss]

The LX86 is far superior to LX57, & your Kefs will benefit from it. Personally, I would recommend the Pioneer based on my demo of the R series.

 

[CnoEvil]

Here is how I see it:

- Arcam for music

- Pioneer for films (with the R Series).

- Anthem the best compromise for both.

The R Series / LS50 is a great choice, and seems to suit most brands of amp. For AV, a good sub is essential.

Please try and listen for yourself with your chosen speakers.

 

[rendu]

If I was you given your budget I would wait for the new Anthems to come out. They have just been anounced as you can see in the WHF news and they look very promising.

 

[ric71]

I replaced my Arcam AVR 500 with an Anthem MRX 300. In my room it out performed the Arcam in every respect. Much of this had to do with the room EQ.

I'm waiting to take delivery of an MRX 510 which will replace the 300 as a pre/pro. It has a far more powerful room EQ and many enhancements.

 

[RLCCM]

Many thanks for all the comments, and apologies for not having come back sooner. To update on this, yesterday I went to my local dealer to have a listen to a few things.

First comment is that I was completely blown away by the quality of the R300's. They projected a huge, extremely clear soundfield and hefty bass. For movie watching the R300's I think will be fantastic. The LS50's couldnt match their expansive soundfield or bass (though were still impressive considering their small size), but felt considerably more accurate and balanced for stereo. Actually they really are quite different speakers, far more different than I expected. I find that the LS50 very top and lower ranges have less emphasis, but aremore cohesive, and better balanced in the midrange, and really do give the accuracy and detail rather than the punch of the R300. But, as I am also looking at investing in a separate stereo system now, the need for stereo quality is diminished for me, and the R300 will be just great for the theatre! Though I also point out, the pro's and con's of the R300 vs LS50 were also highly dictated by the TYPE of music I was testing with.

The advice I received at the shop was to go with Pioneer for the theatre also. He also agreed that the Arcam was better for music, the Anthem somewhere in the middle, but he recommended the Pioneer over Anthem for ease of use, and believes the Pioneer still provides a perfectly good sound for stereo (just not quite as musical). My priorities have changed a bit, as I am now concentrating on having two separate systems, so the musicality of the Arcam wont be as important to me now.

Price wise, the Arcam AVR400 and Pioneer LX86 are both £900-£1000 on clearout sales, so they both seem extremely appealing at these prices. I did see an Anthem amp for a relatively similar sum, but I'll have to try to find that again, as I am not sure where it went, or if it still exists!

Thanks for clarifying also that the LX86 will still outperform the LX57, thats very useful, and instantly crosses the LX57 off the list.

At the moment given what you all say here, and the dealers recommendation I am veering toward the Pioneer in this shootout!

 

[RLCCM]

In addition to that, I'm a little wary of waiting for the new model Anthem's because simply, at full new proce they will be £1500-£2000 and even if they are great, that's simply too much for me. Otherwise I would pull the LX87 into consideration, but when the LX86 is half price I doubt that there is such a difference between the two to justify that sort of cost difference.

 

[CnoEvil]

Was all your listening done through the Pioneer amp, or did you get a chance to compare?

What 2 channel system do you have in mind.....though make sure the Arcam wouldn't cope with both, as these boxes can get a bit expensive?

Remember to leave money for a decent sub.

The R300s are really good, and are a great choice for a mixture of AV/2 Channel.

 

[RLCCM]

Actually the speaker comparison I had was through a marantz amp, simply its what the shop had set up.

What I mean for my set-up thuogh, is that I will get a completely seperate 2 channel set-up for music, meaning most music will be played on that in my living room, rather than where the projector is sat. This idea came after a shift in realisation of exactly what i wanted in musical terms, in thinking about how I used to listen to music (which I did continually and very specifically, but no longer do - music used to be a HUGE part of my life). I simply feel that if to just listen to music, being forced to relocate to the projector room, then I wont change my current habit that I am trying to break, of making it more a part ofmy everyday life again.

So, this AV receiver will be used 90% for movies/games, and only occasionally for music, with an entirely separate 2 channel set-up in my living room, dedicated for music.

 

[RLCCM]

What 2 channel system do you have in mind.....though make sure the Arcam wouldn't cope with both, as these boxes can get a bit expensive?

Remember to leave money for a decent sub.

To separately answer these questions, yes Iwill have to spend a bit more. The stereo system I am building up in my head and some modest testing, currently looks as follows:

Arcam FMJ A19

Audiolabs 8200CD

Focal 826V

At a total cost of around £2200 (a dealer here has some focals at a hugely cut-down price). Though this is very much subject to change as I really havent done enough testing, and certainly other speakers/components will be considered still.

Basically my cost saving thuoghts mean currently not upgrading my subwoofer (a realtively young KEF KUBE 1) and using my old KEF egg KHT 2005's as 4 x rears in a 7.1 set-up against the r300/r200c front set-up. I am less inclined to upgarde the woofer yet, partly as it doesnt need it a sbadly as the eggs and avr200 do, and partly as if I go too big on bass, I disturb the neighbours! It also leaves a lot of potential for upgrading if I want to at a later date.

If I need to save more to begin with, I feel I can get away with using the AVR200 for stereo temporarily.

Also the

 

[themovierooms]

I would have to recommend the Anthem over all of the others mentioned. By far the best sounding for music and movies but a little light on features if that is what you are after. The difference between the MRX300 & 500 is slight, and really you’re paying for the Ethernet port in the back and a squirt of extra power. There are still some 300's & 500's available at various prices, it would be a safe bet.

 

[rendu]

Here, new models full of features from 1199 pound... I hope there will be reviews soon.

http://www.whathifi.com/news/anthem-unveils-three-new-home-cinema-receivers

 

[RLCCM]

£1200 would bring the mrx310 into the fold, but it has a major drawback. Its only a 5 channel amp. That would be fine for the old setup, but with above plan I intend to go to a 7 channel setup. Considering the rest of the kit, an mrx310 simply doesnt have the abilities and features i would want. In addition to that when there are cheap mrx500s available, I think the higher end model will be more appealing as well as 2 extra channels (still falling short of the 9 with pioneer)

 

[Roundhead 5000]

As an owner of the Pioneer and the R series I would just like to say I am extremely happy with my choices, and as a match the two really work well together. The Pioneer for that price is a steal. I say go for it. But then I would, wouldn't I?

 

[CnoEvil]

To separately answer these questions, yes Iwill have to spend a bit more. The stereo system I am building up in my head and some modest testing, currently looks as follows:

Arcam FMJ A19
Audiolabs 8200CD
Focal 826V
At a total cost of around £2200 (a dealer here has some focals at a hugely cut-down price). Though this is very much subject to change as I really havent done enough testing, and certainly other speakers/components will be considered still.

Basically my cost saving thuoghts mean currently not upgrading my subwoofer (a realtively young KEF KUBE 1) and using my old KEF egg KHT 2005's as 4 x rears in a 7.1 set-up against the r300/r200c front set-up. I am less inclined to upgarde the woofer yet, partly as it doesnt need it a sbadly as the eggs and avr200 do, and partly as if I go too big on bass, I disturb the neighbours! It also leaves a lot of potential for upgrading if I want to at a later date.

If I need to save more to begin with, I feel I can get away with using the AVR200 for stereo temporarily.

Hear are my thoughts, and I apologize if I sound a little like a stuck record, but I'm just making sure you've thought through the very best way to maximize the money you have available.

Is there any possibility that you would change your mind and consider having your AV and 2 channel in the one room? My reason for pushing this is as follows:

- The R300s are superb with 2 channel.

- The money saved from the 2 channel system can be put into this one system, which saves on duplication.

- I believe an Arcam (preferably AVR450) could sound better (bi-amped) through the R300s than the "in your head" 2 channel system, but you'd need to check this out for yourself; in fact, the 400 itself might be enough.

- The 2 channel system you have in mind will be much more forward and clinical sounding than what you are used to, so a good dem is needed. Never buy a product solely because it's being sold off at a bargain price (tempting as it may seem).

- If possible, I would look at a Linn Sneaky DS as a source.

If you are absolutely set on two systems, ignore the above, but be careful about the presentation of your new 2 channel system.

FWIW. If I had that budget, I would have a two channel system consisting of a Linn Sneaky (£1000) and some R300s (£1000) and bide my time until I could upgrade the amp from that in the Sneaky.

I hope I've given some food for thought......though if not, nothing is lost, other than the time taken to read it.

 

[RLCCM]

Hear are my thoughts, and I apologize if I sound a little like a stuck record, but I'm just making sure you've thought through the very best way to maximize the money you have available.

Not at all, I appreciate the thoroughness!

Is there any possibility that you would change your mind and consider having your AV and 2 channel in the one room?

No, absolutely none. The reason I have changed my track so to speak is as follows. I am lucky enough to have two spaces, the first is my living room/kitchen that I spend most of my time in, eating/resting/computering (a lot)/tv etc... Most of my time is spent here, and I wish to listen to music here, properly, without moving upstairs to the open mezzanine where the theatre is (though its a mezzanine, its actually much bigger than the living room - hard to explain, but its kind-of like a loft space under the roof and fits a large dedicated theatre). At the moment if I want to listen to music, I must go upstairs, which though it sounds silly, actually means almost I never do, as I tend to have to be downstairs on the computer a lot/relaxing infront of the tv/cooking. So, i rarely listen to music properly - which really bothers me, as it was until not so many years ago, a HUGE part of my life (I played Jazz professionally for a little while, or at least tried to!). I've been in this apartment less than a year actually, and previously would listen to the Arcam/KEF for stereo also, all in the same room (before I had a projector). But now the system is upstairs, and my rooms much bigger, it no longer really does the job, hence all the purchasing ideas! (besides them being a 2nd hand and 10 year old set!)

My reason for pushing this is as follows:

- The R300s are superb with 2 channel.

I completely agree having heard them, but also add BIG reservations and qualifications to that. They throw out a massive sound field, which is hugely enjoyable and impressive, fantastic for movies undoubtedly, and an instant WOW that makes me want them! But, and this is key - they only suit some types of music - mostly pop and rock music - which enjoy large full bass sound. But though I listen to the odd bit of rock and a tiny occasional pop, I mostly wish to buy something for relatively specific Jazz recordings - to rediscover my love for it, and the R300's simply dont have the balance or accuracy to convey the detail properly. Especially in the bass, which I felt too big, and too boomy for what I want - I need the utmost control and detail in the bass, as mostly I am listenning to recordings with a double-bass which has a whole more natural sound than any form of bass guitar or electronically generated form as you get in pop these days. Actually in the test I had, I preferred the rather less meaty but more accurate and concise sounding LS50 for the recordings they had in the shop that were close to what I listen, despite the wow factor the R300's have and their hugely enjoyable expansive sound field.

- The money saved from the 2 channel system can be put into this one system, which saves on duplication.

Yes as was my original plan, but my thoughts and priorities changed after a few realisations!

- I believe an Arcam (preferably AVR450) could sound better (bi-amped) through the R300s than the "in your head" 2 channel system, but you'd need to check this out for yourself; in fact, the 400 itself might be enough.

- The 2 channel system you have in mind will be much more forward and clinical sounding than what you are used to, so a good dem is needed. Never buy a product solely because it's being sold off at a bargain price (tempting as it may seem).

I have no experience with bi-amping, so have no idea what difference it makes unfortunately, its something I know nothing about. I have been told repeatedly that a dedicated 2 channel stereo amp (like the A19), will sound much better than any AVR however. I could be wrong about that of course, but am led to believe it from decently reliable sources, and at least 2 channel systems are much cheaper for similar/better musical quality!

Actually, I have demo'd the focals and a couple of other floorstanders (though more closely I demo'd the 700 series), thats how I know about them! They are quite impressive, but my next step will be to go back to the store with a full set of my own CD's to really listen to everything again with my exact musical tastes! What the floorstanders have given me so far is the open clarity in the bass, whilst still being full, that the bookshelves simply cant match. Though I agree the R300 for many things is more enjoyable, it's not as good for what I want.

- If possible, I would look at a Linn Sneaky DS as a source.

Thanks for the suggestion - i've just checked it out online, but actually I have hardly any digitalised/downlaoded music, my entire collection is on CD, so the DAC capability of the audiolabs is plenty good enough for me, actually I dont really feel I need that capability at all honestly, and am more interested in getting the best sound quality from a CD source. This habit is unlikely to change hugely either, I prefer to buy most of my Jazz CD's in a shop, where I can really look at what the recording is. Online, its much harder to tell, as well as much harder to find that little gem of a CD that yuo wouldnt actually go out to look for to begin with. That is the benefit of a good CD shop!

I hope I've given some food for thought......though if not, nothing is lost, other than the time taken to read it.

really they are very fair comments which I agree would certainly apply to many people, and appreciate your time that it took to put together an alternative option. But, I think it wouldnt suit me personally - if not just because I am looking at two separate rooms. If it was all one room, I would probably look at a pair of floormounts for stereo (like R700's) paired to a surround system of R300's, and buy the most musical AVR that I could.

 

[RLCCM]

Thanks for the recommendation Roundhead, am glad to hear someone is quite happy with their similar set-up!

 

[CnoEvil]

When giving a useful reply on here, it is often hard to know the level of knowledge a person has, or how well they have thought the thing through and know what they want.

In your case, I can see you know exactly where you want to head, so I'll throw out a few more thoughts, which might (or might not) be more relevant.

- I would look at your budget as a combined Music / AV budget, putting the money where it has the most effect....which in itself depends on your priorities.

- IMO. Two Channel is harder to get right than AV, and I'm certainly fussier about it.

- IME. The two most important speakers in AV, are the Centre (most important) and the Sub.

- For the AV system, I would consider R100s for Front L&R, as the Sub will deal with the low stuff....and put the savings into other areas.

- I agree with you about the R300s, whose bass can become too much. It can be mostly sorted with a little breathing space, the use of the two-part bung system and an amp with enough current to keep them under control.

- With very few exceptions, I have always found modest 2 channel amps sound better than much pricier AV amps (though not all agree). One of those exceptions is Arcam (also Pathos and Primare). My AVR600 has seen off amps like M6i, Moon i7 and Coda CSI, just for sheer enjoyment.. I used to have an AVR350, which was a fair bit better than the AVR200, very serviceable for music, but completely outclassed by the 600.

- To bi-amp, all you do is use the 2 spare rear channels into your Front L&R speakers (provided they have 4 terminals on the back - ie. remove the links) and choose the bi-amp setting in the amp menu. Doing this usually exerts more control over the speakers, often tightening the bass and making them sound cleaner and more detailed, with better imaging. The improvements are usually marginal, but noticeable and worthwhile.

- Given you're a musician, I completely understand what you are looking for (I used to play an instrument (badly) in a school orchestra, and my Mum was a professionally trained singer)......I was so impressed with the LS50s that I bought a pair. They have the gift of looking deeply into the recording, without becoming clinical or analytical.....but they don't have the scale and impact of a floorstander. To get a floorstander with their speed, accuracy and insight, is expensive.

- After getting out of Vinyl, I was a CD Player diehard......until I heard what a Linn DS could do. You still buy your CDs as normal, but rip them onto a NAS. You can then access them with all manner of iThingys, PDAs and laptops. IMO. The Sneaky sounds like a highend CDP (it sounds better than my Linn Karik / Numerik, which was fairly expensive in the 90s), and is superb with the type of music you listen to. I would never go back, and almost never play CDs.

All I'm suggesting doing, is finding a Linn Dealer that does LS50s, and hear them with a Sneaky DS, before spending any money.

- Be careful with Focal, as they can become tiring over a period, though they will do a lot of what you are looking for......you might also try Tannoy, which like Kef, have the tweeter inside the mid-range (Dual Concentric). They are cleaner and leaner than the R Series, but not as forward as the Focals.

- One unusual, but great value speaker brand I have come across recently is Taga Harmony, so it might be worth seeing if you have access to them.....though they are rare and hard to find. I wrote about them here: http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/taga-possibly-the-best-affordable-speakers-youve-never-heard-of

 

[ric71]

For music a pair of LS50's partnered with a KK DXD 808 sub and you will be in heaven.

 

[RLCCM]

Yeah I have just dicovered how much harder the 2 channel is than the AV.

I today demo'd som 2 channel speakers, the Focal 726V and 826W, KEF r500 and r900 and B&W CM9, initially on a cambridge audio 651, then a Musical Fidelity M3 (except for the R900 which was on an 851). The initial result seemed like a walk-over for the focals, which go really well with the cambridge, though surprisingly 726 in many ways had a better balance than the 826 for much of the music I listenned to, and it was slightly easier on the ear - thus teaching me that going up in a companies range doesnt nesessarily mean better!. However after about 25mins, and a comment that I wasnt so impressed by the CM9, the dealer swapped to the M3 which suited the CM9 much better. Actually this was at a similar time to me beginning to notice how aggressive the focals were, they were wonderfully clear, but punchy and aggressive, they demanded your ears, and after that initial wow, were noticeably tiresome. So much so that when switching back to the KEF or CM9 during any given tune, it felt like a palpable relief!!

I could see why on short demo, or for the sheer exciting sound of the focals, why they are a very inviting choice, but after an hour and a half of demo's I had almost gone right off them.

I will be going back there soon actually to listen to the new Focal 926 when it comes in, that is meant to be much better according to teh dealer, next to the others. I'm also hoping for an R700, I felt the R500 lacked clarity, thuogh had a lovely balance and warmth. The R900 was beautifully clear, but lacked excitement. The CM9 however by the end of the test seemed the best overall balance for me - though I want more testing still, especially with some alternative amps, and am curious how the slightly cheaper CM8 would react.

Anyway... back onto topic, unfortunately I didnt get to re-test the R300 or LS50 today, nor any of the AV amps that I had wanted to try. However I do now completely agree that Av will be much easier to choose. With a little research it turns out the LX86 isn't available at the price I had seen afterall, but I can get the following:

Pioneer SC-LX76 for about £775 (I like the price, and think the 76 wont be much worse than the 86 in sound, so am very tempted for the features)

Anthem MRX 500 for about £840 - a crazy price at a shop in france not too dramatic a drive on a weekend (if I get a spare saturday again!)

Arcam AVR400 for about £1100

In terms of the Av speakers, as I say at the moment I plan still to save on the sub, and keep what I have, I dislike using subs too much simply as I DO disturb the neighbours. Over here the disparioty between R100 and R300 in price isnt as much as the UK, the R100 being about £550 and the R300 being about £830. With the reserach on cheaper amps, I am happy enough to spend the little extra on the r300, to give me more versatility in the long term, given that I may well in another year or two upgrade that system furethr (with a sub and rears perhaps).

I'm going to try to demo the Anthem and Pioneer if at all possible, though thinnk it may be difficult, the price difference lends me to go toward these two over the arcam, as well as being keen on the better cinema sound as opposed to music, given that I am going for a separate stereo. Really thuogh now, the stereo is the true difficulty!

One thing about ripping onto a NAS for a linn though - firstly a NAS is itself an extra cost, and secondly, I am faaar too lazy to rip all my CD's... nah, I realy need the CD player to make use of the system, besides being prematurely old fashioned as I am, I still quite like the tactile nature of CD's. Maybe a Linn will be something to look at in another year or two as an addition, but I think I need to experiment more with streaming really before I take that sort of leap - the pioneer would be perfect for that step too, should I take it.

 

[CnoEvil]

I'm delighted that you are getting stuck in, and listening to a variety of different combinations.....and as you have discovered, synergy between amp and speakers is key.

Your description of what you heard, sits right with me. I like MF amps which I find "musical", but some find they (M Series) lack a little "bite". I also find your comment on the R500s as having "a lovely balance and warmth", to be insightful. FWIW. I think the R700s are the sweet spot of the Floorstanders....as speakers get bigger, they can lose the speed and imaging that makes a good Standmount so beguiling.

I have also found, that with some speakers that are less "showy", you need to live with them for a week (or more) to fully appreciate their talents. I have personally found that upfront, forward sounding systems, while exciting at first, often become grating after a period. Generally, a system will end up being a compromise, either towards the smoother side, or the brighter more analytical one.....more money can get you closer to the real thing, but it is certainly not a given.

Speakers that have a presentation between Focal and Kef might be - Tannoy, Taga Platinum F-100S, PMC Twenty Series, GamuT, Triangle, Usher, Mark and Daniels.

Given the price difference, you are right to go for the R300s.....with me, the difference is £400.

Going the streaming route is a big mental hurdle for some (it was for me), so I quite understand......but I'm happy that it's on your radar for future investigation. For a CDP, Audiolab is a good choice, and I'd also throw in Rega as well.

Amps are also a bit of a minefield, and a lot of the good ones need to be sniffed out. ie. Brands like Bel Canto, Pathos, Sugden, Electrocompaniet, Creek, Croft and Lavardin.

Class A / Valves sound great, but is pretty "un-green", but Class D is much less power hungry and is getting better and better, with (very expensive) brands like Devialet showing what can be done......Nad are doing good work here as well, along with the previously mentioned Bel Canto.

I have been exactly where you are at the moment, so am very happy to help where I can. I will never tell you what to buy, only throw out suggestions that you might otherwise have not known about

:cheers:

Cno

 

[RLCCM]

Yes and excelent to be able to bounce things of you Cno! Much appreciated indeed.

Without answering everything fully this time (as only have a quick minute) I must admit, I heard the standmounters agility and clear presentation, and was surprised how in some cases the floorstanders can exacerbate background noise. Yes they sound fuller, but... I have had the thought of whether there is standmounter out there which truly has performance to nearly match a florostander, whilst retaining that agility - or am I just dreaming? Maybe worth spending more time to look at the b&w PSM1?

I also considered whether there was something I could find somewhere in the middle, like a large bookshelf, or small floorstander. Only found the Dali Fazon F5 so far... any good? something worth considering does anyone know?

 

[Native_bon]

Yes and excelent to be able to bounce things of you Cno! Much appreciated indeed.

Without answering everything fully this time (as only have a quick minute) I must admit, I heard the standmounters agility and clear presentation, and was surprised how in some cases the floorstanders can exacerbate background noise. Yes they sound fuller, but... I have had the thought of whether there is standmounter out there which truly has performance to nearly match a florostander, whilst retaining that agility - or am I just dreaming? Maybe worth spending more time to look at the b&w PSM1?

I also considered whether there was something I could find somewhere in the middle, like a large bookshelf, or small floorstander. Only found the Dali Fazon F5 so far... any good? something worth considering does anyone know?

RLCCM, am currently using Boston acoustics M340 speakers.. Slim line floor standing speakers with amazing bass reproduction. Also you get clean midrange & smooth open top end. Just something you may put on your list since you mentioned small floor standers. very accurate sounding speakers with no sign of hardness to the sound.

 

[CnoEvil]

Yes and excelent to be able to bounce things of you Cno! Much appreciated indeed.

Without answering everything fully this time (as only have a quick minute) I must admit, I heard the standmounters agility and clear presentation, and was surprised how in some cases the floorstanders can exacerbate background noise. Yes they sound fuller, but... I have had the thought of whether there is standmounter out there which truly has performance to nearly match a florostander, whilst retaining that agility - or am I just dreaming? Maybe worth spending more time to look at the b&w PSM1?

I also considered whether there was something I could find somewhere in the middle, like a large bookshelf, or small floorstander. Only found the Dali Fazon F5 so far... any good? something worth considering does anyone know?

- I have never heard a Dali speaker, but they have a great reputation.

- The PM1s are £2000 (£2400 including stands).........so make sure they are worth the extra over the LS50s,

- For clean sounding Floorstanders, look at the PMC Twenty Series, Kef Reference, Tannoy....along with others I listed.

Given the cost of making a Floorstander vs a Standmount (and the technical obstacles that need to be overcome), it's no wonder that you pay a premium for a really good one. There are people who just cannot look past a good Standmount, and conversely, people like me, who would miss the scale and impact of a Floorstander. Hifi is a game of compromises.

If you can get to hear Taga Platinum F-100SE which I wrote about here (they are hard to find), they might just fit the bill: http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/taga-possibly-the-best-affordable-speakers-youve-never-heard-of

 

[RLCCM]

Thanks for the recommendation of the boston accoustics, they certainly look smart, I'll try to get a demo of them, am in the UK this weekend and am hoping to demo a few things in London.

Taga however I certainly can't find anywhere that I know of unfortunately.

I heard the PM1 actually, and they sounded good, though something was missing I felt. I need to listen again and for longer to put a finger on exactly what, but they didnt particularly outperform the R300's ar LS50 at all considering the price difference.

That's why the Dali Fazon F5 look like they could be an interesting middle ground, smaller than most floorstanders so perhaps they have some of that standmount agility, and bigger than most standmounters so hopefully some of the better bass and open sound of the floorstander.... though that could just be an ideal world! To actually get to listen to a pair could be very difficult indeed!

Will report after this weekends testing!