Well, I've asked Peter Tyson to arrange delivery (though I won't receive it until Friday now). I came to the conclusion that the only way I'll know for sure is to try the TV at home with a range of material and see what I think. If I'm really unhappy then the £35 return charge is an annoyance, though hardly the end of the world...
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Alec
Well-known member
Strapped, I'm really sorry to have left you hanging! Life's beena bit hectic and I've been unable to even check if I have a dongle. Sorry boss. Are you going ahead on the condition you can return it?
And if you do get one at the lower price you mentioned, thats £100 less than I paid
And if you do get one at the lower price you mentioned, thats £100 less than I paid
al7478 said:
No worries Al. I can't expect everybody to drop what they're doing because I have a query!
Yes, It'll be delivered on Friday. It's a calculated risk. Here's hoping all this messing around has been worthwhile.
It's probably worth running the test on your V20 anyway, if you can, just to see. On the other hand, I don't want to spoil your enjoyment of your new toy by highlighting potential problems, especially as I know how much you've agonised over your purchase. It's your call, but don't do it on my account, since I'll find out for myself soon enough...
Cheers mate.
Alec
Well-known member
strapped for cash said:
Meh, its always seemed perfectly reasonable to me :bigsmile:
And yes, you are scaring me a bit
hi strapped, as i said i didn't notice any floating blacks on either of the v20s that i had, so there must be a decent chance yours will be free of them, i didn't watch fight club or the matrix on them though, so pehaps i had them but didn't watch anything that highlighted them, either way i watched many blu-rays and all looked fantastic, if only a couple of movies are going to highlight a "problem" then i don't think it would be a problem. given the great price you got it for, anyway hopefully all will be well and you will love the tv
I really hope so Max!
Having spent the last hour reading the longest thread discussing floating blacks on another forum (I'm sure you know which one), I'm starting to worry again.
Several of the most recent posts on the issue suggest floating blacks get worse over time. The thread was discussing the G20, to be fair, but since this issue has been noted by owners of all 2010 Neo-PDP models, it's a little concerning.
I'm not looking for perfection (and certainly not at the price I've paid), but I want to be sure I can live with the TV and enjoy its performance.
Honestly, I've been through more aggravation and anxiety with this purchase than any I can remember (besides buying and selling houses, but you've got to expect that). Roll on Friday. Now I've taken the plunge I'm dying to see how it performs.
Out of interest, if you'd paid less for your V20 (say £900 for a 50"), would you have kept it? Of course I wouldn't allow someone else's opinion to influence whether I keep my TV or not, but it might give me some indication of what to expect...
EDIT: I should add that the fact I've not been able to audition the TV (and instead relied on internet research) is probably the source of my anxiety. I feel like I'm buying blind; and my capacity to make rational, informed decisions has been severely hampered. Maybe I'm just a sucker for a deal when I think I spot one...
EDIT 2: Just realised I've clocked up 1000 posts, so I've awarded myself a biscuit.
Having spent the last hour reading the longest thread discussing floating blacks on another forum (I'm sure you know which one), I'm starting to worry again.
Several of the most recent posts on the issue suggest floating blacks get worse over time. The thread was discussing the G20, to be fair, but since this issue has been noted by owners of all 2010 Neo-PDP models, it's a little concerning.
I'm not looking for perfection (and certainly not at the price I've paid), but I want to be sure I can live with the TV and enjoy its performance.
Honestly, I've been through more aggravation and anxiety with this purchase than any I can remember (besides buying and selling houses, but you've got to expect that). Roll on Friday. Now I've taken the plunge I'm dying to see how it performs.
Out of interest, if you'd paid less for your V20 (say £900 for a 50"), would you have kept it? Of course I wouldn't allow someone else's opinion to influence whether I keep my TV or not, but it might give me some indication of what to expect...
EDIT: I should add that the fact I've not been able to audition the TV (and instead relied on internet research) is probably the source of my anxiety. I feel like I'm buying blind; and my capacity to make rational, informed decisions has been severely hampered. Maybe I'm just a sucker for a deal when I think I spot one...
EDIT 2: Just realised I've clocked up 1000 posts, so I've awarded myself a biscuit.
hi strapped, yes i would have kept it if i'd got it for £900, definately.
the hd performance is incredible, i'm hoping your gonna find no issues, or at least can live with any you do find, because it's one hell of a tv.
enjoy the biscuit
the hd performance is incredible, i'm hoping your gonna find no issues, or at least can live with any you do find, because it's one hell of a tv.
enjoy the biscuit
If you can live with the V20 as is, then you have a bargain.
I couldn't the problems for me were too great - I went through two samples just be make sure! LOL I found many broadcast programmes including HD had 50hz issues : blurred motion, red/green dynamic contouring of faces - acutely so!! backgrounds would break up into red and green, and more posterisation than I was expecting. Also the buzz from mine could clearly be heard over the TV sound!!
Not forgetting the floating blacks which came along at a later firmware - more recent firmwares could well have tamed this issue : connect to the net to update your TV!! These mid scene contrast/black level changes will be seen on most programme material : it's not just difficult DVD/Blu Rays!!
It's just as well you have it on sale or return. Maybe you will have got yourself a V20BA version - internal boards were revised for that issue of the TV. If you run into difficulties ask your dealer nicely for a swap to that version.
Fingers crossed that you can get on with this TV - myself I went for the Z1 of 2009 (I know bargain at the prices currently offered
). If I had been in your shoes, I would have waited for the ST30 model this year : issues have been addressed, so we are told elsewhere on this site.
I couldn't the problems for me were too great - I went through two samples just be make sure! LOL I found many broadcast programmes including HD had 50hz issues : blurred motion, red/green dynamic contouring of faces - acutely so!! backgrounds would break up into red and green, and more posterisation than I was expecting. Also the buzz from mine could clearly be heard over the TV sound!!
Not forgetting the floating blacks which came along at a later firmware - more recent firmwares could well have tamed this issue : connect to the net to update your TV!! These mid scene contrast/black level changes will be seen on most programme material : it's not just difficult DVD/Blu Rays!!
It's just as well you have it on sale or return. Maybe you will have got yourself a V20BA version - internal boards were revised for that issue of the TV. If you run into difficulties ask your dealer nicely for a swap to that version.
Fingers crossed that you can get on with this TV - myself I went for the Z1 of 2009 (I know bargain at the prices currently offered
It's not the V20BA (I checked with the retailer).
I'm not even sure about firmware updates, to be honest (I've read stories elsewhere that V20s worked fine until firmware was updated).
With so many conflicting stories, I concluded that the only way I'll know is to try the set at home. If I can't get on with it I'll simply return it, rather than messing about. I fear by the time I've finished shipping TVs back and forth I'll have spent a fortune in delivery charges...
I understand what you're saying about the 2011 models, but since these are yet to be tested (and the only models I could afford would be missing a Freesat tuner, which I need), £699 for a V20 seemed a reasonable bet. I'd need to spend almost double this to buy a 2011 Panasonic plasma with the spec I'd need (I really don't want 3D, but I'd have to have this function if I want an integrated Freesat tuner).
Anyway, here's hoping. I've already told myself to appraise the TV unempathically. I know what I'm looking for; and if floating blacks, buzzing or motion problems are beyond levels of tolerance with regular viewing, it'll be winging its way back.
I'm not even sure about firmware updates, to be honest (I've read stories elsewhere that V20s worked fine until firmware was updated).
With so many conflicting stories, I concluded that the only way I'll know is to try the set at home. If I can't get on with it I'll simply return it, rather than messing about. I fear by the time I've finished shipping TVs back and forth I'll have spent a fortune in delivery charges...
I understand what you're saying about the 2011 models, but since these are yet to be tested (and the only models I could afford would be missing a Freesat tuner, which I need), £699 for a V20 seemed a reasonable bet. I'd need to spend almost double this to buy a 2011 Panasonic plasma with the spec I'd need (I really don't want 3D, but I'd have to have this function if I want an integrated Freesat tuner).
Anyway, here's hoping. I've already told myself to appraise the TV unempathically. I know what I'm looking for; and if floating blacks, buzzing or motion problems are beyond levels of tolerance with regular viewing, it'll be winging its way back.
Delivered at 11am.
My first impression is that the V20 is an excellent TV.
Being wary of floating blacks, I played the YouTube test that showed then up in Dynamic mode on my G10. I really couldn't see any noticeable shift in contrast using THX or Professional modes on the V20. I next experimented with scenes from The Dark Knight highlighted elsewhere as triggering floating blacks. Again, I couldn't notice any unusual shift in contrast.
I don't want to get carried away and suggest the TV is devoid of floating blacks. At present I'm viewing in daylight. The real test will be later, when I can watch in complete darkness. However, the tests I've run so far suggest that, at worst, the problem is subtle.
Motion seems pretty good as well. I haven't noticed judder in 50Hz content so far. Interestingly, when I press the "i" button on the remote while viewing HD channels via Freesat, I'm told I'm watching 1080i 50Hz. I'll be watching closely, but with IFC disengaged, motion doesn't seem particularly problematic.
Buzzing: Yes, the set does buzz a little, but no more than my G10; and not in a way I find distracting from normal viewing distances. Furthermore, the fan noise from my G10 was always more irritating than the buzzing sound (and there's no fan noise on the V20).
SD Viewing via Freesat: The V10 trounces the G10 in this department, providing a more detailed picture with far less noise.
I'm actuallly feeling quite pleased, since I'd geared myself up to expect awful shifts in contrast, dodgy motion and distracting buzzing from the set. As yet, I haven't noticed any glaring problems. I'll cast a very critical eye over the TV in the coming days, however, as first impressions can be misleading. The picture is perhaps a little dark, as well.
Oh, and one last thing: It's nice to get rid of the green tinge to pictures that characterised the G10. Colour reproduction on the V20 is superb...
My first impression is that the V20 is an excellent TV.
Being wary of floating blacks, I played the YouTube test that showed then up in Dynamic mode on my G10. I really couldn't see any noticeable shift in contrast using THX or Professional modes on the V20. I next experimented with scenes from The Dark Knight highlighted elsewhere as triggering floating blacks. Again, I couldn't notice any unusual shift in contrast.
I don't want to get carried away and suggest the TV is devoid of floating blacks. At present I'm viewing in daylight. The real test will be later, when I can watch in complete darkness. However, the tests I've run so far suggest that, at worst, the problem is subtle.
Motion seems pretty good as well. I haven't noticed judder in 50Hz content so far. Interestingly, when I press the "i" button on the remote while viewing HD channels via Freesat, I'm told I'm watching 1080i 50Hz. I'll be watching closely, but with IFC disengaged, motion doesn't seem particularly problematic.
Buzzing: Yes, the set does buzz a little, but no more than my G10; and not in a way I find distracting from normal viewing distances. Furthermore, the fan noise from my G10 was always more irritating than the buzzing sound (and there's no fan noise on the V20).
SD Viewing via Freesat: The V10 trounces the G10 in this department, providing a more detailed picture with far less noise.
I'm actuallly feeling quite pleased, since I'd geared myself up to expect awful shifts in contrast, dodgy motion and distracting buzzing from the set. As yet, I haven't noticed any glaring problems. I'll cast a very critical eye over the TV in the coming days, however, as first impressions can be misleading. The picture is perhaps a little dark, as well.
Oh, and one last thing: It's nice to get rid of the green tinge to pictures that characterised the G10. Colour reproduction on the V20 is superb...
Alec
Well-known member
Hi Strapped. I'm glad its going well for you so far.
It is not my intention to pee on your bonfire but I think I've noticed floating blacks now. Generally when the camera shifts from one shot to another on a couple of soaps. Also, I think I've seen discolouration with people's faces having red patches, and a couple of instances of that multi coloured petrol kind of effect, when people have passed the camera.
You would, however, have to be looking for these things I think. I agree that teh colour reproduction is very good and that it can look a little dark.
It is not my intention to pee on your bonfire but I think I've noticed floating blacks now. Generally when the camera shifts from one shot to another on a couple of soaps. Also, I think I've seen discolouration with people's faces having red patches, and a couple of instances of that multi coloured petrol kind of effect, when people have passed the camera.
You would, however, have to be looking for these things I think. I agree that teh colour reproduction is very good and that it can look a little dark.
Don't worry Al. To be honest, I'm intent on being critical, so drawing my attention to any potential problems is actually quite helpful.
I've got a week to evaluate the pros and cons of the TV, at the end of which I'll either decide it's a worthy upgrade from my G10, or not.
Based on my viewing so far, there are certainly things this TV does better than the G10, but not everything's an improvement.
I have to say, though, having spent a week reading horror stories about the V20 online, I'm a little relieved I haven't noticed any glaring faults so far.
Anyway, I'm doing my best to evaluate the TV in as dispassionate a manner as possible.
I've got a week to evaluate the pros and cons of the TV, at the end of which I'll either decide it's a worthy upgrade from my G10, or not.
Based on my viewing so far, there are certainly things this TV does better than the G10, but not everything's an improvement.
I have to say, though, having spent a week reading horror stories about the V20 online, I'm a little relieved I haven't noticed any glaring faults so far.
Anyway, I'm doing my best to evaluate the TV in as dispassionate a manner as possible.
i'm glad you seem to like it strapped, what do you think of the black levels? i don't know if a learned fellow like yourself would have a copy of avatar on blu-ray? but if you have, stick it on and be prepared to be amazed
Cheers Max.
Blacks look, well, pretty black... I've now realised how grey the blacks on my G10 look (I'm wondering if my G10 suffered MLL to a greater degree than I was aware). I hope the V20 doesn't suffer the same fate, if I decide to keep it.
Of course the V20 isn't perfect, but then no TV is. I don't know if Panasonic have tweaked V20s manufactured later in the year with a view to minimising reported issues, as I still haven't seen any truly alarming picture problems (and I've been looking intently). I'll be fascinated to read reviews of 2011 Panasonic plasmas.
And I'd never describe myself as learned, Max, but perhaps schooled enough to steer clear of Avatar.
A belated happy St. Patrick's Day, by the way!
Blacks look, well, pretty black... I've now realised how grey the blacks on my G10 look (I'm wondering if my G10 suffered MLL to a greater degree than I was aware). I hope the V20 doesn't suffer the same fate, if I decide to keep it.
Of course the V20 isn't perfect, but then no TV is. I don't know if Panasonic have tweaked V20s manufactured later in the year with a view to minimising reported issues, as I still haven't seen any truly alarming picture problems (and I've been looking intently). I'll be fascinated to read reviews of 2011 Panasonic plasmas.
And I'd never describe myself as learned, Max, but perhaps schooled enough to steer clear of Avatar.
A belated happy St. Patrick's Day, by the way!
bigboss
Moderator
Forget the scrutiny, & just enjoy your TV! arty:
If you find even a small fault, you'll stop enjoying it.
arty:If you find even a small fault, you'll stop enjoying it.
Dave_
Well-known member
bigboss said:Forget the scrutiny, & just enjoy your TV!
If you find even a small fault, you'll stop enjoying it.
Wise words!
lol, i didn't expect you woud have avatar, and cheers, though my paddys day celebrations were limited to an orange juicestrapped for cash said:Cheers Max.
Blacks look, well, pretty black... I've now realised how grey the blacks on my G10 look (I'm wondering if my G10 suffered MLL to a greater degree than I was aware). I hope the V20 doesn't suffer the same fate, if I decide to keep it.
Of course the V20 isn't perfect, but then no TV is. I don't know if Panasonic have tweaked V20s manufactured later in the year with a view to minimising reported issues, as I still haven't seen any truly alarming picture problems (and I've been looking intently). I'll be fascinated to read reviews of 2011 Panasonic plasmas.
And I'd never describe myself as learned, Max, but perhaps schooled enough to steer clear of Avatar.
A belated happy St. Patrick's Day, by the way!
i agree with bb, enjoy
bigboss said:
No doubt I will, BB, I'm that kind of guy, unfortunately...
I can safely say that the V20 beats the G10 in most (if not all) areas of performance. Even the sound is perfectly acceptable for normal viewing; and I can rest safe in the knowledge that I can crank up the home cinema system whenever required.
Just one day in and I'm less enamoured with the TV (and annoyed with myself for not taking heed of problems reported by other owners).
Having watched a range of material, from TV, to DVDs, to Blu-rays, there are motion problems across the board, even with 24Hz material. The strange thing is, I wouldn't describe the effect as judder, as remarked by others. Rather, it's like a more subtle version of IFC is at work: every so often, images look like they're on fast forward, no matter what the source. I wonder if this is Panasonic's fix for the 50Hz bug: the introduction of motion processing software to try to mask the issue? Probably not, but in any case the V20 is worse with motion than the G10.
And yes, I can now confirm there are floating blacks, which are irritating once spotted. Already I think I can predict when they'll raise their head (scenes in films with dramatic shifts in contrast being most noticeable).
I'm not sure if the buzzing is any louder than my G10, but I'm now starting to miss the G10's better motion handling and in many respects more stable picture. I'm starting to think my only option is to return the V20, but where do I go from there?
I'd fallen somewhat out of love with the G10, due to its poor upscaling of standard def material and probable rising blacks. My G10's currently sitting in my bedroom, so it's no problem to reinstate it as my living room set. However, my suspicion that black levels had risen and annoyance with its upscaling abilities were the reason I began this whole V20 experiment.
Now if Panasonic could combine the blacks levels and punch of the V20 with the motion handling and stability of the G10, that would be some TV! I'll give the V20 a couple of days to see if it settles down, but I'm guessing the problems noted above won't be masked.
Since my G10 has an extended warranty with Richer Sounds, it might be worth having a chat with them. However, I really don't know if they'd consider rising black levels a problem that would warrant complaint.
Apologies for the lengthy rant, but I'm feeling deflated now. Perhaps I should live with the G10 a while longer and see what 2011 brings.
Gutted...
Having watched a range of material, from TV, to DVDs, to Blu-rays, there are motion problems across the board, even with 24Hz material. The strange thing is, I wouldn't describe the effect as judder, as remarked by others. Rather, it's like a more subtle version of IFC is at work: every so often, images look like they're on fast forward, no matter what the source. I wonder if this is Panasonic's fix for the 50Hz bug: the introduction of motion processing software to try to mask the issue? Probably not, but in any case the V20 is worse with motion than the G10.
And yes, I can now confirm there are floating blacks, which are irritating once spotted. Already I think I can predict when they'll raise their head (scenes in films with dramatic shifts in contrast being most noticeable).
I'm not sure if the buzzing is any louder than my G10, but I'm now starting to miss the G10's better motion handling and in many respects more stable picture. I'm starting to think my only option is to return the V20, but where do I go from there?
I'd fallen somewhat out of love with the G10, due to its poor upscaling of standard def material and probable rising blacks. My G10's currently sitting in my bedroom, so it's no problem to reinstate it as my living room set. However, my suspicion that black levels had risen and annoyance with its upscaling abilities were the reason I began this whole V20 experiment.
Now if Panasonic could combine the blacks levels and punch of the V20 with the motion handling and stability of the G10, that would be some TV! I'll give the V20 a couple of days to see if it settles down, but I'm guessing the problems noted above won't be masked.
Since my G10 has an extended warranty with Richer Sounds, it might be worth having a chat with them. However, I really don't know if they'd consider rising black levels a problem that would warrant complaint.
Apologies for the lengthy rant, but I'm feeling deflated now. Perhaps I should live with the G10 a while longer and see what 2011 brings.
Gutted...
Hi micks_address.
Yes, IFC is turned off. At least in the sense that it's displayed as "off" in the Other Settings menu.
If I turn IFC on, motion looks ridiculous. Processing is as subtle as a sledgehammer. That's why I wondered if Panasonic had included a more subtle (and undfeatable) form of IFC as a software update, with the knock-on effect of making images look even more absurd with IFC engaged. I'm not sure this theory is sound, but I'm reminded of the strange effects and artifacts produced when IFC is engaged on my G10, but I can't get rid of them on the V20.
As I type and glance at the TV, I spot another example of floating blacks during Football Focus...
Yes, IFC is turned off. At least in the sense that it's displayed as "off" in the Other Settings menu.
If I turn IFC on, motion looks ridiculous. Processing is as subtle as a sledgehammer. That's why I wondered if Panasonic had included a more subtle (and undfeatable) form of IFC as a software update, with the knock-on effect of making images look even more absurd with IFC engaged. I'm not sure this theory is sound, but I'm reminded of the strange effects and artifacts produced when IFC is engaged on my G10, but I can't get rid of them on the V20.
As I type and glance at the TV, I spot another example of floating blacks during Football Focus...
strapped for cash said:
Hi Strapped
I had that tv for a while the 42V20 and if i was you i would return it and go back to the G10. For me there was alot of weird stuff going on and also the black was just too black, there did not seem to be any balance for me. It also buzzed alot more than the 50V20. The 50V20 was not as black but still suffered from all the weird stuff too. I actually only noticed all the weird stuff when they had the firmware updates on them before then the 50V20 was working great for me.
Cheers
I'm pretty certain it will go back.
The discrepancy between professional reviews of the V20 and owners experiences of the set seems vast...
The discrepancy between professional reviews of the V20 and owners experiences of the set seems vast...
Alec
Well-known member
Hum. Sorry to hear all this, Strapped.
I'm starting to feel I'm just less eagle-eyed than most. Though as you know I'm still not entirely happy. Think I may have burned the "return" bridge though.
I'm starting to feel I'm just less eagle-eyed than most. Though as you know I'm still not entirely happy. Think I may have burned the "return" bridge though.
bigboss
Moderator
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