Onkyo 3009 Vs Yamaha 3010 - Closer to Arcam AVR 600 Sound ?

[WishTree]

Hi, I am looking for downgrading / redoing my AVR system in a different direction for 2012. I would like to replace my Processor and Power Amp with just an AVR. The budget for the AVR is upto 1500 Pounds.

I like the sound of AVR 600 and the Stereo Performance. I am generally fine with used gear so an used AVR 600 falls in my budget (with a little strech) but for the first time, with Arcam (be it 600 or 500) I do not want to go for the used route given the buzz in the forums on all the problems. Also this is a 3 year old AVR and I am hoping that some one from competion has caught up. From this perspecitve Arcam is ruled out.

I read the April issue of WHF for the group test of Onkyo 3009, Pioneer and Yamaha 3010. The Group test is really informative but my query is slightly different.

I would like to buy either the Onkyo or Pioneer and would like to know which one sounds closer to the Arcam AVR 600 sound wise in Stereo mode / Music listening?

It would be nice to read from WHF team who has done these group tests or the ones who auditioned all these amps together with Arcam

I am also considering to change my speakers to Tannoy Signature Floor Standing (If this helps in better recommendation)




PS: Pioneer is ruled out purely because I am not looking for brighter electronics (and also it does not come in Silver - Though people might not care about the looks / finish, but for me it is really important if not equally as SQ ).

 

[Frank Harvey]

Okay, the Pioneer isn't brighter, it's presentation is just more forward than some of the more laid back competition. For AV purposes, it's one of the bad boys to beat, and had I not gone pre/power, I'd still be using my LX85.

Tonally, you'll find that something like a Denon or a Yamaha will be more like the Arcam sound. The Onkyo will be less like the Arcam sound, but has an advantage over the Yamaha with its Audyssey XT32 processing, which is pretty special. The Denon 4311 also uses this, so might be a consideration for you.

Pas you're going to be using the Tannoy speakers, I'd suggest trying a few of these amps out along with the Tannoys - the amp/speaker match is very important - get that wrong, and your system will only go downhill from there.

 

[Anonymous]

WishTree - I returned an ARcam AVR500 ages back as my unit had too many faults - I loved the sound quality though and was best I'd heard my system- period. Since returning it I've struggled to find any amp (in my price range) that sounded as good - movie wise.

I demoed the Pioneer SC-LX75, Yamaha 3067 (a while ago) and a Denon 4311

pure hifi SQ wise - I preferred the sound of the SC-LX75 - the only thing that put me off was that I could never quite get MCACC to give EQ to give me full wrap around seemless sound. The Denon 4311 - during the demo didn't sound for2 channel quite as good as the 4311 - but wa sclose enough for me to buy it considering the powerful EQ it has.

well I can tell you - for music listening the Arcam will still come easily up trumps, but if you have any interest in movies - wow - XT32 is the genuine deal - its totally transformed my living room into a full cinema. I can't "hear" any of my rear speakers now - even my 2 rear backs - which sometimes you could pick out of the mix, and the front 3 speakers blend seemlessly. Genuinely very impressed indeed The Denon 4311 has very decent grunt (power output wise) - which is nice too - like the Arcam AVR500 - it feels powerful and dynamic

YMMV

 

[WishTree]

Okay, the Pioneer isn't brighter, it's presentation is just more forward than some of the more laid back competition.

Thanks David.

My Bad.. I should have used the right way, like you did, to describe the sound of Pioneer. I heard both 75 & 85 and their presentation is too forward for my taste.

I like Denon sound but it is not as dynamic as I would expect it to be. Auditioned the 3009 but with a different set of speakers.

Pas you're going to be using the Tannoy speakers, I'd suggest trying a few of these amps out along with the Tannoys - the amp/speaker match is very important - get that wrong, and your system will only go downhill from there.

I am completely with you on this. Yes, I will audition them together. From your experience, which AV amp you think would gel more with Tannoy Signature amongst Denon, Onkyo and Yamaha?

 

[WishTree]

WishTree - I returned an ARcam AVR500 ages back as my unit had too many faults - I loved the sound quality though and was best I'd heard my system- period.

pure hifi SQ wise - I preferred the sound of the SC-LX75 - the only thing that put me off was that I could never quite get MCACC to give EQ to give me full wrap around seemless sound.

Thanks Buckshar. I am guessing you bought the Pionner 75. I am glad that there are some AVRs which can atleast be used in the same sentence along with Arcam 600 in same sentence for HiFi HQ! Which speakers do you use?

 

[Anonymous]

sorry - on re-reading my post it didn't really make it clear which I bought.

no - I bought the Denon 4311 - the Pioneer was slightly better 2 channel stereo - but the Denon was near enough to the SQ but had much more sophisticated EQ than thePioneer - therefore picked the Denon.

its certainly driving my 7.1 system (Tannoy R3s, Tannoy RC, Tannoy M2 (rears), Tannoy Eyris Rs (backs), SVS Ultra 13)- to ridiculous levels without breaking a sweat - in fact I'm using all 9 discrete amp stages on the Denon - it allows you to output to 7 speakers and bi-amp the fronts

I certainly am not missing the Arcam now anyway - although its amazing what the XT32 EQ does - as without it - it sounds a bit bland - not as good as the Arcam did for movies, but as soon as you enable the EQ - wow - it transforms the sound completely

 

[WishTree]

no - I bought the Denon 4311 - the Pioneer was slightly better 2 channel stereo - but the Denon was near enough to the SQ but had much more sophisticated EQ than thePioneer - therefore picked the Denon.

Thank you for the clarification! So it is Denon + Tannoy. May be I have to include Denon 4311 back in the equation

 

[CnoEvil]

This may seem a slightly daft question, but could you enjoy your movies with 2.1 and a good stereo amp?

Personally, that would be my choice if I didn't want to go the Arcam AV route.....less clutter and a higher quality sound, albeit not in surround. I suppose it depends on your priorities.

 

[WishTree]

This may seem a slightly daft question, but could you enjoy your movies with 2.1 and a good stereo amp?

Hi Cno.. Thanks for bringing this up. Theoretically yes and I convinced myself to go for this (It was good for a while as I had much wider equipment choice, even got the mighty Pathos Inpol2) but after an year of struggle, it was almost impossible to me as well as Wife + Friends to watch movies with out the center channel and we do watch movies 50% of the time the system is on.

We tried and tried and tried but we could only get the voices to understandable level with volume way up and it means that the bangs & explosions were too loud for us to handle.

So, ideally yes but practically not working out. If you see my configuration, I am using the current set up as well as the future AVR with only Front and center (three speakers only) along with my beloved PV1 subwoofer!

 

[CnoEvil]

This may seem a slightly daft question, but could you enjoy your movies with 2.1 and a good stereo amp?

Hi Cno.. Thanks for bringing this up. Theoretically yes and I convinced myself to go for this (It was good for a while as I had much wider equipment choice, even got the mighty Pathos Inpol2) but after an year of struggle, it was almost impossible to me as well as Wife + Friends to watch movies with out the center channel and we do watch movies 50% of the time the system is on.

We tried and tried and tried but we could only get the voices to understandable level with volume way up and it means that the bangs & explosions were too loud for us to handle.

So, ideally yes but practically not working out. If you see my configuration, I am using the current set up as well as the future AVR with only Front and center (three speakers only) along with my beloved PV1 subwoofer!

Given what enviable kit you've owned/own, I'm having difficulty making recommendations that take you away from where you are at now.

I can't help feeling that something like the Kef R series or the new PMC Twenty series speakers, would be clear enough for 2 channel listening to movies, at lower levels.

 

[WishTree]

I can't help feeling that something like the Kef R series or the new PMC Twenty series speakers, would be clear enough for 2 channel listening to movies, at lower levels.

Thanks Cno!

I guess it has got nothing to with the actual equipment but with the way the mixing is done at the Studio for the movies. I always felt the need to bump up the center speaker level by 2 to 3 points so that the dialogues and voices can be heard over the explosions.

I tried to find a solution in the movie playing software or other areas where I could bump up the Center speaker levels even before the signal leaves by Mac Mini but found no such solutions. Also, with out a dedicate center speaker, I have always had challenges with hearing out the voices

 

[CnoEvil]

Thanks Cno!

I guess it has got nothing to with the actual equipment but with the way the mixing is done at the Studio for the movies. I always felt the need to bump up the center speaker level by 2 to 3 points so that the dialogues and voices can be heard over the explosions.

I tried to find a solution in the movie playing software or other areas where I could bump up the Center speaker levels even before the signal leaves by Mac Mini but found no such solutions. Also, with out a dedicate center speaker, I have always had challenges with hearing out the voices

There may be nothing wrong with the equipment per se, but different speakers have different strengths.....and the Kef R/ PMC Twenty series are particularly good when it comes to the clarity of speech, with the Kefs having the advantage of a very wide sweet spot due to its tweeter being inside the midrange unit, as explained here:

http://www.kef.com/html/en/innovation/uni-q/index.html (also click on the "+" in the section labelled "more")

 

[WishTree]

There may be nothing wrong with the equipment per se, but different speakers have different strengths.....and the Kef R/ PMC Twenty series are particularly good when it comes to the clarity of speech, with the Kefs having the advantage of a very wide sweet spot due to its tweeter being inside the midrange unit, as explained here:

http://www.kef.com/html/en/innovation/uni-q/index.html (also click on the "+" in the section labelled "more")

That is a good point! I am more interested in the front ported than rear ported as I might be able to push the speakers closer to the back wall and from that PMC looks interesting!

 

[CnoEvil]

That is a good point! I am more interested in the front ported than rear ported as I might be able to push the speakers closer to the back wall and from that PMC looks interesting!

I'm sure you understand that I am not trying to push you into something that you don't want to do (not that I could), but give you some possible options that might be worth trying out, before giving up on the idea of 2.1.

 

[WishTree]

I'm sure you understand that I am not trying to push you into something ...

Ofcourse, I do. Dealing with all the hardcore sales people at various shops, gave me slightly more elated sense to differentiate between a push and a genuine advice.

I always took your views as a good advice and it always worked to my advantage

 

[CnoEvil]

Arcam does go particularly well with PMC. >)

 

[Anonymous]

oh btw - after almost "accepting" pops/squeaks etc were the norm for HDMI after my ownership of the AVR500

can confirm that after playing multiple content, and lots of playing around with different bluray movies, videos off my HTPC etc for last day and a half - I've not had ONE single noise of HDMI negotation with my Denon

 

[ric71]

Funnily enough my ARCAM AVR 500 is being returned to Peter Tyson on Tues.I love the sound but am sick and tired of the software issues and now it has started making popping sounds through the speakers every so often.

Sounds awesome but not worth the aggro which is a shame because IMO nothing except the 600 can touch it for music SQ below £3-4k.

 

[Anonymous]

did some music listening (classical, country etc) this evening - and I prefer the Denon 4311 to my previous Arcam and Pioneer flagship

ok in straight stereo its a bit warm sounding, dull would be the word,not as dynamic as the Arcam - so ok on pure initial SQ not quite as good (but still very listenable to)

but enable Audyssey XT32 EQ on the "stereo" mode - and wow is not the word - suddenly (for my old speakers anyway) like a veil has been lifted - I can hear parts of the mix that are normally hidden by "bloat" elsewhere - its just astounding.

I tried Misa Criolla - stereo sounded wonderful - but then enabled the "wide" mode - which enables all 7 speakers to some sort of wide expanse - and was like being in a live performance - I've never normally ever used any of the "effects" modes on an av amp - but with the more modern day processing +the sophisticated EQ it just works

highly highly recommended. I think the sound could still do with a bit more punch, but I think a decent power amp would help out - you'd still be well well under the price of a Yamaha 3010 or a 3009

 

[RickyDeg]

Funnily enough my ARCAM AVR 500 is being returned to Peter Tyson on Tues.I love the sound but am sick and tired of the software issues and now it has started making popping sounds through the speakers every so often.

Sounds awesome but not worth the aggro which is a shame because IMO nothing except the 600 can touch it for music SQ below £3-4k.

Sad to hear that, ric71. I know how much you loved the Arcam with the Apex. I've heard tons of reported problems with the Arcam receivers also. Pity on something that otherwise looks like a fine line of products. Naturally, I am very curious as to what you'll chose next to drive your Apex-speakers? Do tell (in The Apex Club forum, hehe)!

 

[WishTree]

but enable Audyssey XT32 EQ on the "stereo" mode - and wow is not the word - suddenly (for my old speakers anyway) like a veil has been lifted - I can hear parts of the mix that are normally hidden by "bloat" elsewhere - its just astounding.

highly highly recommended. I think the sound could still do with a bit more punch, but I think a decent power amp would help out - you'd still be well well under the price of a Yamaha 3010 or a 3009

Thank you! BTW, I am trying to move out from multi box solution to possibly a single box solution I will audition the Denon 4311 one more time once I get my speakers!

 

[WishTree]

Just an update.

Did some tests the other day and I picked up an Onkyo 3009 as it offered the best bang for buck. The sound is quite different from Arcam but the combination of Money, looks, SQ made me go for Onkyo! Hey, I still have the Arcam P7 to couple with the new Onkyo. I am still getting used to the new AVR but it is definetly sounds great in AV Mode. I will get the Tannoy Signature DC6T tomorrow. So, in a week or so, I can do a comparision and post more updates.

I have a Marantz Pearl KI some where in the storage. Once I get my new speakers, I will run the Stereo only mode for few more days to do a back to back comparision of the Onkyo AVR 3009 with Marantz Pearl.

 

[CnoEvil]

Is it your plan to use the Onkyo as the processor feeding the P7 or on its own, and how does it compare to the Classe?

The Tannoy have a similar design to Kef (ie. Dual Concentric), which means a big sweetspot. They may not be as "rich" sounding in the mid-range as the Proacs, but should be an excellent match with the P7.

Look forward to your thoughts

Cno

 

[WishTree]

Is it your plan to use the Onkyo as the processor feeding the P7 or on its own, and how does it compare to the Classe? The Tannoy have a similar design to Kef (ie. Dual Concentric), which means a big sweetspot. They may not be as "rich" sounding in the mid-range as the Proacs, but should be an excellent match with the P7. Look forward to your thoughts Cno

Hi Cno.. I have not decided yet but if it works out I would like to use just Onkyo but it is still too early t decide.

For pure music, Classe is a class apart! It is tough to beat this classe. This SSP 300 is such an excellent Stereo pre amp with built-in DAC with an added advantage of Surround sound processing.

I know it is hard to let it go but it is already an year and I want to try something more budgety this year !! Also, I am trying to have the fun of buying things brand new for a change!

If Funds permit, I just want to get a Classe SSP 800 + CA 5300 and call it a day for the electronics. I was speaking to a Classe dealer and he made a great offer but I chickened out as it was too much money to spend! Also, if I ever did that, I need to have some more budget for speakers!

BTW.. what set up do you have? Do you have some pictures to share., if I may ask. What I gather is you have Arcam AVR 600 but do not know the stereo set up or speakers set up.

 

[CnoEvil]

Hi Cno.. I have not decided yet but if it works out I would like to use just Onkyo but it is still too early t decide.

For pure music, Classe is a class apart! It is tough to beat this classe. This SSP 300 is such an excellent Stereo pre amp with built-in DAC with an added advantage of Surround sound processing.

I know it is hard to let it go but it is already an year and I want to try something more budgety this year !! Also, I am trying to have the fun of buying things brand new for a change!

If Funds permit, I just want to get a Classe SSP 800 + CA 5300 and call it a day for the electronics. I was speaking to a Classe dealer and he made a great offer but I chickened out as it was too much money to spend! Also, if I ever did that, I need to have some more budget for speakers!

BTW.. what set up do you have? Do you have some pictures to share., if I may ask. What I gather is you have Arcam AVR 600 but do not know the stereo set up or speakers set up.

I will keep trying to talk you out of selling your lovely sounding kit....and if you ever need talked into buying something nice (Classe), just let me know and I'll have a go. :shifty:

My AV system: PS Fat/DV79/Sky + AVR600 + Kef Ref 5.1

My Stereo: Linn Majik DS + MF AMS 35i (connected to AVR 600 through Pre-outs) + Kef Ref 205/2

There might be some pics if I ever get round to figuring how...but don't hold your breath.