Seems to me that the humble tape cassette is hifis dirty little secret. I grow up with listening to tapes in my bedroom whils my folks had viny downstairs. In my teenage years I afforded to buy a cd player which killed tapes for me as it was an easier way of selected tracks, it had nothing to do with sound qaulity as back then I wasn't an audiophile back then so I was happy as a pig in poo with tape. So was it considered a good medium in hifi or laughable next to vinyl?
on a seious note how good was tape compared to other formats?
- Thread starter simon3102000
- Start date
Petherick
Well-known member
I think for most people the main attractions of cassettes were a) they were portable - you could use them in the car, in a walkman, etc. b) they were recordable - so you could carry around your favourite mix-tapes, borrow your mates' lp's and record them (heaven forbid!) and c) they were relatively robust (at least compared to vinyl). Personally I think the quality of most pre-recorded (i.e. albums bought on tape) was pretty bad, but if you took [take!] the trouble to use good tapes and good equipment, music recorded at home can be pretty good quality. But obviously there will always be losses or distortions as it's an analogue transfer. As with all music the source quality matters above all else. Certainly, in their heyday cassettes could be considered "Hi-Fi" if treated as such.
http://www.vintagecassette.com/
Should get you started - plenty of interesting tpae deck eye candy to check out there. It was a good format - get a decent deck, Aiwa and Denon were two of the big guns in the 90s, something like a TDK SA90, or even their AD which was also very good, and you could do well out of it.
Should get you started - plenty of interesting tpae deck eye candy to check out there. It was a good format - get a decent deck, Aiwa and Denon were two of the big guns in the 90s, something like a TDK SA90, or even their AD which was also very good, and you could do well out of it.
manicm
Well-known member
From my experiences tape recordings of LPs often sounded clearer, or just as good. Of-course tape had 'hiss' (stock standard Dolby NR was horsepoop) but you'd soon forget it and listen to the music instead.
scene
Well-known member
I think the best comparison is that tape was similar to MP3s of today. They weren't as good as the best quality recordings, but this was offset by their portability and general usefulnesss. They were aided by the fact that a lot of the LPs available were themselves of dubious quality - cheap pressings, that could degrade quite quikly - so a tape recording wasn't so bad. If you had a decent turntable and cassette deck, the quality of tape produced was marvellous and you could play it in the car, and when walking along...
I had a Technics TT and a Nakamichi CR1 (I still have the latter) and the tapes I could cut sounded pretty good. I'm tempted to dig it out of storage...
I had a Technics TT and a Nakamichi CR1 (I still have the latter) and the tapes I could cut sounded pretty good. I'm tempted to dig it out of storage...
i remember when.................
i used to have a top of the range walkman cost around £190 the really slim black one with dolby b+c and was very impressed with the sound quality.
i played them like most people in my car.
my hifi i had a sony tck 611s if i remember corectly and used sony xr 90 metal tapes and found the quality very close to cd due to dolby s which got rid of neally all the hiss
i actually found the recording from lp to be better as the tapes added a little more bass
at the time it was the best way to back up a cd (this was pre cd writers 1996)
until minidisc came along and wiped the floor with tapes
i used to have a top of the range walkman cost around £190 the really slim black one with dolby b+c and was very impressed with the sound quality.
i played them like most people in my car.
my hifi i had a sony tck 611s if i remember corectly and used sony xr 90 metal tapes and found the quality very close to cd due to dolby s which got rid of neally all the hiss
i actually found the recording from lp to be better as the tapes added a little more bass
at the time it was the best way to back up a cd (this was pre cd writers 1996)
until minidisc came along and wiped the floor with tapes
manicm
Well-known member
scene:I think the best comparison is that tape was similar to MP3s of today. They weren't as good as the best quality recordings, but this was offset by their portability and general usefulnesss. They were aided by the fact that a lot of the LPs available were themselves of dubious quality - cheap pressings, that could degrade quite quikly - so a tape recording wasn't so bad. If you had a decent turntable and cassette deck, the quality of tape produced was marvellous and you could play it in the car, and when walking along...
I had a Technics TT and a Nakamichi CR1 (I still have the latter) and the tapes I could cut sounded pretty good. I'm tempted to dig it out of storage...
This is simply not true - we had a Technics direct drive TT as well, and well-specced Technics tape recorder - LP recordings were sublime, inherent tape hiss apart. And unlike MP3s, tape recordings are not compressed so full fidelity was assured.
I had a Technics TT and a Nakamichi CR1 (I still have the latter) and the tapes I could cut sounded pretty good. I'm tempted to dig it out of storage...
This is simply not true - we had a Technics direct drive TT as well, and well-specced Technics tape recorder - LP recordings were sublime, inherent tape hiss apart. And unlike MP3s, tape recordings are not compressed so full fidelity was assured.
scene
Well-known member
manicm:
scene:I think the best comparison is that tape was similar to MP3s of today. They weren't as good as the best quality recordings, but this was offset by their portability and general usefulnesss. They were aided by the fact that a lot of the LPs available were themselves of dubious quality - cheap pressings, that could degrade quite quikly - so a tape recording wasn't so bad. If you had a decent turntable and cassette deck, the quality of tape produced was marvellous and you could play it in the car, and when walking along...
I had a Technics TT and a Nakamichi CR1 (I still have the latter) and the tapes I could cut sounded pretty good. I'm tempted to dig it out of storage...
This is simply not true - we had a Technics direct drive TT as well, and well-specced Technics tape recorder - LP recordings were sublime, inherent tape hiss apart. And unlike MP3s, tape recordings are not compressed so full fidelity was assured.
Sorry, I think I've been misunderstood! I wasn't saying that tape recordings were bad, just not as good as the best quality vinyl pressings. The main point was that tape was popular because of its convenience and the recordability - the same thing makes MP3s (and rips) generally popular. Just like modern day rips, you can do full fat lossless and then they will sound superb. However most people rip low-bitrate MP3, where lots of compression comes into play...
But as I said, tapes cut from my Technics TT using my Nak sounded pretty good. I can't comment how well they'd compare to stuff now as most have mulched down and my Nak is in storage. As for full fidelity - shall we talk about Dolby a/b/c? I believe that used compression...
scene:I think the best comparison is that tape was similar to MP3s of today. They weren't as good as the best quality recordings, but this was offset by their portability and general usefulnesss. They were aided by the fact that a lot of the LPs available were themselves of dubious quality - cheap pressings, that could degrade quite quikly - so a tape recording wasn't so bad. If you had a decent turntable and cassette deck, the quality of tape produced was marvellous and you could play it in the car, and when walking along...
I had a Technics TT and a Nakamichi CR1 (I still have the latter) and the tapes I could cut sounded pretty good. I'm tempted to dig it out of storage...
This is simply not true - we had a Technics direct drive TT as well, and well-specced Technics tape recorder - LP recordings were sublime, inherent tape hiss apart. And unlike MP3s, tape recordings are not compressed so full fidelity was assured.
Sorry, I think I've been misunderstood! I wasn't saying that tape recordings were bad, just not as good as the best quality vinyl pressings. The main point was that tape was popular because of its convenience and the recordability - the same thing makes MP3s (and rips) generally popular. Just like modern day rips, you can do full fat lossless and then they will sound superb. However most people rip low-bitrate MP3, where lots of compression comes into play...
But as I said, tapes cut from my Technics TT using my Nak sounded pretty good. I can't comment how well they'd compare to stuff now as most have mulched down and my Nak is in storage. As for full fidelity - shall we talk about Dolby a/b/c? I believe that used compression...
manicm
Well-known member
'until minidisc came along and wiped the floor with tapes' - that's a new one. Minidisc's ATRAC compression in its last incarnations was excellent though, as well as the optional Hi-md uncompressed format. Thing is I don't ever recall Minidisc taking off in a big way.
I would say 'until MP3 players came along and wiped off Minidisc'.
Sony's Minidisc players had excellent digital outputs though!
I would say 'until MP3 players came along and wiped off Minidisc'.
Sony's Minidisc players had excellent digital outputs though!
manicm
Well-known member
Yes, but back in the day, unlike MP3 players, tape players were full blown serious hifi components in many homes to backup and preserve LPs.
Tape was much less of a convenience format than MP3 from what I remember. Many used it as seriously as LP. And of-course all of us recorded LPs from friends who had just popped out of the record shop. And many of us bought good quality blank tapes to do this. TDK certainly cashed in.
Yes Walkmans took off and this is a valid MP3 comparison - to the extent of portability and no more. In sound quality your good walkmans would absolutely wipe the floor clean with any MP3/iPod player in terms of sound.
What did tape in for me was wear and tear. I never bothered to maintain the player and it chewed cassettes at the end.
Tape was much less of a convenience format than MP3 from what I remember. Many used it as seriously as LP. And of-course all of us recorded LPs from friends who had just popped out of the record shop. And many of us bought good quality blank tapes to do this. TDK certainly cashed in.
Yes Walkmans took off and this is a valid MP3 comparison - to the extent of portability and no more. In sound quality your good walkmans would absolutely wipe the floor clean with any MP3/iPod player in terms of sound.
What did tape in for me was wear and tear. I never bothered to maintain the player and it chewed cassettes at the end.
When it was good, it was very, very good.
When it was bad it was strewn like spaghetti all the way up the central reservation of a dual carriageway.
When it was bad it was strewn like spaghetti all the way up the central reservation of a dual carriageway.
scene
Well-known member
Andrew Everard:
When it was good, it was very, very good.
When it was bad it was strewn like spaghetti all the way up the central reservation of a dual carriageway.
true, very true
When it was good, it was very, very good.
When it was bad it was strewn like spaghetti all the way up the central reservation of a dual carriageway.
Andrew Everard:
When it was bad it was strewn like spaghetti all the way up the central reservation of a dual carriageway.
I remember those day's; splicing. In fact i might still have my splicing kit around, might have to dig that out...To continue......
Answer to the thread; so long ago i cant remember.
When it was bad it was strewn like spaghetti all the way up the central reservation of a dual carriageway.
I remember those day's; splicing. In fact i might still have my splicing kit around, might have to dig that out...To continue......
Answer to the thread; so long ago i cant remember.
iMark
Well-known member
manicm:
Sony's Minidisc players had excellent digital outputs though!
I know. I bought a second hand Sony deck today so I can finally convert all my MD's.
I can recommend getting a second hand deck with optical output (and a computer with optical in) to anyone with a stack of old MD's.
The guy I bought it from and his wife were amazed by the interest after they had put it on the Dutch equivalent of Ebay.
Sony's Minidisc players had excellent digital outputs though!
I know. I bought a second hand Sony deck today so I can finally convert all my MD's.
I can recommend getting a second hand deck with optical output (and a computer with optical in) to anyone with a stack of old MD's.The guy I bought it from and his wife were amazed by the interest after they had put it on the Dutch equivalent of Ebay.
Tapes made at home using high quality tapes on my high end Onkyo Integra 2090 could sound fantastic when i took the time to calibrate etc and the heads were nice and clean.
plastic penguin
Well-known member
On chrome cassette the SQ could be excellent. Once I got my first CDP in 1997 (late starter) I would never go back to cassette - the SQ was good, but the damn hassle. After about six months ribbons would suddenly appear across the carpet from nowhere.
idc
Well-known member
I had a Yamaha KX390, which with Play Trim could produce excellent sound. The hiss did detract from final listening pleasure.
...I particularly loved the inherent ability of cassettes to lend themselves to making mix tapes - I know you can do it on CD but somehow it ain't the same. I had a very expensive Sony DAT recorder and the recording quality was awesome ...but within 18 months the machine had chewed up tapes and didn't play tapes properly.
...Fast forward to my Nakamichi 700ZXE cassette deck - not as good as my DAT but far more compatible (and reliable!) and with a well calibrated TDK SA the sound quality was great.
Isn't it weird though that even though cassettes were always the poor relation in all of it's years as a hifi medium they are now accepted to have been much superior to mp3 replay?
...In all areas of home entertainment things have vastly improved quality wise (except audio!!)
...Fast forward to my Nakamichi 700ZXE cassette deck - not as good as my DAT but far more compatible (and reliable!) and with a well calibrated TDK SA the sound quality was great.
Isn't it weird though that even though cassettes were always the poor relation in all of it's years as a hifi medium they are now accepted to have been much superior to mp3 replay?
...In all areas of home entertainment things have vastly improved quality wise (except audio!!)
I think that things have inevitably moved on, and the options we have available to us today have the potential to give us better sound quality (if we chose not to apply lossy compression and the like), however I'm a little rueful that some fantastic engineering has fallen into redundancy these days. Some of the Nakamichis were just fantastic pieces of engineering, it's as if they just refused to accept the limitations of the format and built these ingenious machines to overcome them.
I owned a couple of Naks and the recording quality on TDK MAs was genuinely great. However my mate's dad had Nak Dragon (think he still has actually) and neither of us could ever tell the difference between the recordings being replayed or the original CD.
I owned a couple of Naks and the recording quality on TDK MAs was genuinely great. However my mate's dad had Nak Dragon (think he still has actually) and neither of us could ever tell the difference between the recordings being replayed or the original CD.
This is my first post on topic, how good is tape compared to todays formats. I still use a Yamaha KX 380 Special Edition Cassette deck (which was a What Hifi award winner back in the day) and it's still acceptable as a source for me. How many hours were spent/wasted just looking at those peak level lights moving in time to the music, now they were the days. Headphones on, darkened room, Jean-Michel Jarre, cassette deck peak lights, perfick.
On a sad note I recently disposed of 300+ recorded TDK's at my local refuse centre which they don't recycle. I couldn't bear to part with the 100s of pre-recorded ones that I own though. But I did make sure that I had the music either in Itunes or on my Spotify Playlists.
On a sad note I recently disposed of 300+ recorded TDK's at my local refuse centre which they don't recycle. I couldn't bear to part with the 100s of pre-recorded ones that I own though. But I did make sure that I had the music either in Itunes or on my Spotify Playlists.
Tonya
Well-known member
I still use several tape formats today, partly because of my job but also due to the fact that I'm an avid music fan and media collector.
Started with a reel to reel Ferrograph which probably no one living still remembers, then upgrading to a Revox A77 which is still considered chic today.
Most hifi magazine editors worth their salt have at least one A or B series whirring away with big metal spools.
My cassette era consisted of a most excellent dual capstan Hitachi D5500 which was a beast of a thing but sounded amazing, a Tandberg unit also gave sterling service in the old days when it wasn't in the workshop.
An old Technics RS-B965 DBX cassette deck was an amazing alternative to Dolby A & B and if I could only locate the other 5 people on the planet who also bought one then we could exchange some tapes made with the wee beasties.
I know Donald Fagen from Steely Dan had one but where are the other 4 now, I wonder?
My last pure cassette deck was a Nakamichi Dragon.
Dabbled with Sony & Technics "Elcaset" format in the mid seventies, still got an EL7 somewhere. That format came and went the same Summer, it seems.
Fond memories still remain of a quadraphonic 8 track system listening to classics such as DSOTM and Machine Head from four speakers.
Can't remember the model but it had a detachable joystick so you could steer the sound - state of the art (not)!
To be honest, can't remember much of the seventies, I sincerely believe that the awful lubrication used in those 8 tracks has caused a mild form of memory loss during those important audiophile-formative years.
That's my excuse and I'm sticking to it!
I was loaned an early model of one of the world's first domestic digital audio recorders made by Hitachi that actually used VHS tapes to record a two track digital signal on.
Not sure if they ever made it to the marketplace in the end, but it was a great sound.
I was given a Philips DCC unit and was actually quite impressed with the format and still use the machine today to play back all those old cassette tapes as it has a great Dolby circuit and a rather convenient digital output stage.
Looking at my rack, there is still a trusty Sony DTC-690 DAT recorder which I haven't fired up in yonks but has given many years of service.
Tape formulations were also important in the day and if you were really serious then you would choose a brand and type then get the deck's bias circuits optimized for that tape.
My D5500 would actually test every tape before recording and adjust the bias accordingly which was brilliant.
I used more Maxell tapes then anything else, never did like the metal particle formulations that were available in the day.
I remember the enthusiasts were split into groups, The Maxwellians, The Ampexians, The TDK-ites.
Financially challenged were known as Philipsonians.
And then there were The Scotch, who were in a corner of the pub all of their own . . . .
My fondest memory of prerecorded cassettes was playing my first "original master recording" cassette SciFi themes,
The OMR tapes were great as they were actually recorded in realtime using banks of Nakamichi.
Not sure but I think you could get the albums on quarter inch tape as well at a ridiculous premium.
They were the demo stuff of the day when you wanted to show off to your friends, you know those special tracks and movie sequences that we all happen to have on hand to create shock and awe when you have people around ;-)
Well, enough of me rewinding the past, at least with HD recording we have cured the dreaded magnetic tape print-through that plagued us all, although I've never had a reel of 456 Grand Master crash on me yet . . . .
Started with a reel to reel Ferrograph which probably no one living still remembers, then upgrading to a Revox A77 which is still considered chic today.
Most hifi magazine editors worth their salt have at least one A or B series whirring away with big metal spools.
My cassette era consisted of a most excellent dual capstan Hitachi D5500 which was a beast of a thing but sounded amazing, a Tandberg unit also gave sterling service in the old days when it wasn't in the workshop.
An old Technics RS-B965 DBX cassette deck was an amazing alternative to Dolby A & B and if I could only locate the other 5 people on the planet who also bought one then we could exchange some tapes made with the wee beasties.
I know Donald Fagen from Steely Dan had one but where are the other 4 now, I wonder?
My last pure cassette deck was a Nakamichi Dragon.
Dabbled with Sony & Technics "Elcaset" format in the mid seventies, still got an EL7 somewhere. That format came and went the same Summer, it seems.
Fond memories still remain of a quadraphonic 8 track system listening to classics such as DSOTM and Machine Head from four speakers.
Can't remember the model but it had a detachable joystick so you could steer the sound - state of the art (not)!
To be honest, can't remember much of the seventies, I sincerely believe that the awful lubrication used in those 8 tracks has caused a mild form of memory loss during those important audiophile-formative years.
That's my excuse and I'm sticking to it!
I was loaned an early model of one of the world's first domestic digital audio recorders made by Hitachi that actually used VHS tapes to record a two track digital signal on.
Not sure if they ever made it to the marketplace in the end, but it was a great sound.
I was given a Philips DCC unit and was actually quite impressed with the format and still use the machine today to play back all those old cassette tapes as it has a great Dolby circuit and a rather convenient digital output stage.
Looking at my rack, there is still a trusty Sony DTC-690 DAT recorder which I haven't fired up in yonks but has given many years of service.
Tape formulations were also important in the day and if you were really serious then you would choose a brand and type then get the deck's bias circuits optimized for that tape.
My D5500 would actually test every tape before recording and adjust the bias accordingly which was brilliant.
I used more Maxell tapes then anything else, never did like the metal particle formulations that were available in the day.
I remember the enthusiasts were split into groups, The Maxwellians, The Ampexians, The TDK-ites.
Financially challenged were known as Philipsonians.
And then there were The Scotch, who were in a corner of the pub all of their own . . . .
My fondest memory of prerecorded cassettes was playing my first "original master recording" cassette SciFi themes,
The OMR tapes were great as they were actually recorded in realtime using banks of Nakamichi.
Not sure but I think you could get the albums on quarter inch tape as well at a ridiculous premium.
They were the demo stuff of the day when you wanted to show off to your friends, you know those special tracks and movie sequences that we all happen to have on hand to create shock and awe when you have people around ;-)
Well, enough of me rewinding the past, at least with HD recording we have cured the dreaded magnetic tape print-through that plagued us all, although I've never had a reel of 456 Grand Master crash on me yet . . . .
scene
Well-known member
Tonya:An old Technics RS-B965 DBX cassette deck was an amazing alternative to Dolby A & B and if I could only locate the other 5 people on the planet who also bought one then we could exchange some tapes made with the wee beasties.
I know Donald Fagen from Steely Dan had one but where are the other 4 now, I wonder?
My first separates system, bought s/hand in 1985 for the princely sum of £250, including cabinet, was a full technics system, with a DBX dual cassette deck. I used DBX all the time, but no-one else could play them. Used to use the deck at work in 88-9, with my Sennheisers plugged straight in - over ear, complete sonic isolation when programming. Unfortunately, managed to pull the deck off a shelf and it played a little slow after that... Only got rid of it a few years back.
I know Donald Fagen from Steely Dan had one but where are the other 4 now, I wonder?
My first separates system, bought s/hand in 1985 for the princely sum of £250, including cabinet, was a full technics system, with a DBX dual cassette deck. I used DBX all the time, but no-one else could play them. Used to use the deck at work in 88-9, with my Sennheisers plugged straight in - over ear, complete sonic isolation when programming. Unfortunately, managed to pull the deck off a shelf and it played a little slow after that... Only got rid of it a few years back.
Mate, if you want old skool, look at reel to reel, the likes of Teac X1000Rs, X2000Rs, any number of Revoxs or any high end late 80s/early 90s machine.. They are mega sought after and sound incredible because they are the absolute pinnacle of analogue recording, and given the usual caveats about decent source components, will kill any digital recorder from the same era.
Plus, they look incredibly impressive, especially back lit....
Plus, they look incredibly impressive, especially back lit....
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