Okki Nokki – Am I expecting too much?

[progwardy]

[size=3 face=Calibri>I suspect I've answered my own question in the positive!

I’m currently using a newly serviced and updated Linn LP12 with a moving coil Dynavector Karat 17D3.

I’ve had my Okki Nokki RCM for three weeks. I’ve used L’Art du Son cleaning fluid, triple distilled water and all housed in amber glass bottles. I’ve varied the amounts used, the ‘action’ used to spread the fluid on the record (the ‘scrubbers’ and ‘spreaders’ debate). I’ve varied the amount of time I’ve left the fluid on the LP before vacuuming. I’ve used a ‘Milty Zero Antistat’ before the process. I’ve also tried using it after the process as well in case I’ve generated any static during the process. In every other way I’ve followed the instructions to the letter. I’ve also got two LPs on which I have tried several cleans. There seems little improvement between cleans two and three.

The symptoms are the snap, crackle and pop. Without a doubt on some records there has been an improvement. On others it seems negligible. Only on two LPs have I managed to get a near to silence finish (out of 15).

My initial observations are that the waste fluid is a very murky colour which would indicate the machine is cleaning. The supplied brush seems hopelessly inadequate for the task. It’s started to shed hairs and I do wonder how much of the bristle is actually getting into the groove. Some other threads/forums seem to suggest a velvet strip would be more appropriate. There are several very expensive brushes that might fit this bill.

I do understand that a badly damaged LP is irretrievable. However the LPs I’ve been cleaning do not look badly damaged and the RCM does make them look like new. Unfortunately it’s in the sonic department that it seems somehow lacking.

My specific questions are:

I suspect I've answered my own question in the positive!

I’m currently using a newly serviced and updated Linn LP12 with a moving coil Dynavector Karat 17D3.

I’ve had my Okki Nokki RCM for three weeks. I’ve used L’Art du Son cleaning fluid, triple distilled water and all housed in amber glass bottles. I’ve varied the amounts used, the ‘action’ used to spread the fluid on the record (the ‘scrubbers’ and ‘spreaders’ debate). I’ve varied the amount of time I’ve left the fluid on the LP before vacuuming. I’ve used a ‘Milty Zero Antistat’ before the process. I’ve also tried using it after the process as well in case I’ve generated any static during the process. In every other way I’ve followed the instructions to the letter. I’ve also got two LPs on which I have tried several cleans. There seems little improvement between cleans two and three.

The symptoms are the snap, crackle and pop. Without a doubt on some records there has been an improvement. On others it seems negligible. Only on two LPs have I managed to get a near to silence finish (out of 15).

My initial observations are that the waste fluid is a very murky colour which would indicate the machine is cleaning. The supplied brush seems hopelessly inadequate for the task. It’s started to shed hairs and I do wonder how much of the bristle is actually getting into the groove. Some other threads/forums seem to suggest a velvet strip would be more appropriate. There are several very expensive brushes that might fit this bill.

I do understand that a badly damaged LP is irretrievable. However the LPs I’ve been cleaning do not look badly damaged and the RCM does make them look like new. Unfortunately it’s in the sonic department that it seems somehow lacking.

My specific questions are:

Am I using the best fluid? The web is awash with suggestions. Any recommendations based on use would be welcome.

Am I using the best fluid? The web is awash with suggestions. Any recommendations based on use would be welcome.

Should I be a ‘spreader’ or a ‘scrubber’.......?

Should I be a ‘spreader’ or a ‘scrubber’.......?

The brush needs replacing. I’m thinking of a homemade version using adhesive velvet strips if my local shop can supply it. Any recommended alternatives?

The brush needs replacing. I’m thinking of a homemade version using adhesive velvet strips if my local shop can supply it. Any recommended alternatives?

Am I using the most effective anti-static solution? There are several ‘wipe on’ products that get varying comments on the web. Again, any suggestions welcome.

Am I using the most effective anti-static solution? There are several ‘wipe on’ products that get varying comments on the web. Again, any suggestions welcome.

 

[kusum65]

I got back to vinyl a year ago and have a okki nokki. I cant get rid of pops entirely but it cuts out the static pops. I find some of the new vinyl can sometimes crackle and pop a lot. I wonder sometimes if its the rough cheap sleeves they use.

As you may know some stylus are more prone to surface noise, my ortofon picks up noise more than my Nagaoka.

I too have had variable results with buying. Some stuff , 2nd hand or new reissues , can sound so good as to better the cd easily but others can sound worse. In terms of new stuff, i find Rhino reissues always seem to sound superb imo. With 2nd hand stuff it comes down to wear and whether you have a good press or not.

Not a consistent format but when it comes right i still think it gives me more music pleasure than digital.

 

[Anonymous]

I dont pretend to be an expert on this but the symptons you mention seem inherent in some vinyl.

The snap, crackle and pop just seem to be there, at least on some records. I have been buying records for decades now and some of the worst offenders have been LP"s that were bought new. Some of my more recent purchases have had more of a problem than stuff I bought in the 1950/ 1960"s. Compared to earlier purchases I notice that later LP"s are made of much thinner, lighter vinyl. Whether this is a factor I am not sure.

 

[respe]

I use a Okki, and although it will not (nothing can) remove all the snap and crackle from LP's, it does remove a lot. When cleaned, you are putting them into new inner sleeves I hope. Also the static could be worse this time of year if the room has a dry atmosphere from central heating etc.

 

[progwardy]

Yep - new poly-lined inner sleeves. Another day of mixed results. I do think that perhaps I need to be a little more select about the second hand stuff I buy. Although a visual inspection in the shop doesn't always reveal the horrors that wait!

Problem is when it works - it works very well and I then want all my vinyl to sound as good! Have ordered all manner of new brushes etc with which to play........

Thanks folks for responses!

 

[Anonymous]

where do you get triple distilled water? I have tried everywhere I can think of, no one knows what I am talking about.

 

[CJSF]

Why triple destilled water? The home brew recipies I have see always seem to say 'distiled water' that says 'vintage Halfords' to me?

CJSF

 

[The_Lhc]

Yep - new poly-lined inner sleeves. Another day of mixed results. I do think that perhaps I need to be a little more select about the second hand stuff I buy. Although a visual inspection in the shop doesn't always reveal the horrors that wait!

Problem is when it works - it works very well and I then want all my vinyl to sound as good! Have ordered all manner of new brushes etc with which to play........

Thanks folks for responses!

I've got an original Disco-Antistat and I must admit I've been mildly disappointed with the last few cleanings and those were done with brand new fluid. Can't help thinking it's not rinsing the dirty fluid away, so when they're left to dry the rubbish just dries back on the record. Got nothing to prove that's the case, it's just an idea that's wedged itself in my head now.

 

[CJSF]

Yep - new poly-lined inner sleeves. Another day of mixed results. I do think that perhaps I need to be a little more select about the second hand stuff I buy. Although a visual inspection in the shop doesn't always reveal the horrors that wait!

Problem is when it works - it works very well and I then want all my vinyl to sound as good! Have ordered all manner of new brushes etc with which to play........

Thanks folks for responses!

I've got an original Disco-Antistat and I must admit I've been mildly disappointed with the last few cleanings and those were done with brand new fluid. Can't help thinking it's not rinsing the dirty fluid away, so when they're left to dry the rubbish just dries back on the record. Got nothing to prove that's the case, it's just an idea that's wedged itself in my head now.

Mmm . . . I remember seeing on here a while back, someone put the record in an electric drill to centrefuge the liquid off (after removal from the trough:rofl: ). Looking at the spindle, seems perfectly feasable idea, provide the drill has a reduced or veriable speed control triger. In fact a simple gig made from MDF to rest the drill in so that the other side of the spindle is also suported seems a good idea.

CJSF

 

[The_Lhc]

Sounds a bit messy CJ!

Anyway it's almost certainly my imagination, I've only played about three records after my last cleaning session, the first one, an old copy of Ian Dury's New Boots and Panties!! sounded horrible on the first track, so I took it off, examined it under a bright light (we only use a couple of dim lamps in the evening) and I can only imagine someone's been attempting to scratch with it, the first track has visible damage, the bottom of the grooves actually looked white, I've never seen anything like it. The rest of that side looked ok but I couldn't be bothered to try it. I then played a couple of Shakatak LPs which sounded very poppy and noisy, so I looked at them under the light and realised I hadn't cleaned them at all, they were filthy (visible patches of surface dirt)! I haven't cleaned them yet, they'll be a proper test.

 

[CJSF]

Or . . . how about wraping a 'lint free cloth' around the small head of a vacume cleaner, the new super Dyson handheld maybe, drill a spindle size hole in a 60-70mm block of wood. Clamp the block in the vice, drop center hub spindle in hole, carfuly rotate record and very lightly vacume water off?

Very 'heath robinson' . . . but that my middle name . . . :? Not sur how the small quantity of water would affect a mains cleaner, use a wet and dry of a battery job?

CJSF

 

[The_Lhc]

I think I'll let you give it a try and get back to us! My missus will brain me if I destroy her Dyson!

 

[CJSF]

I think I'll let you give it a try and get back to us! My missus will brain me if I destroy her Dyson!

I use an old wet and dry in the shed anyway . . . done carfully, I think the centrifuge idea is a good'un . . . problem is, some people live in flats, no shed to escape to:wall:

CJSF

 

[CJSF]

Sounds a bit messy CJ!

Anyway it's almost certainly my imagination, I've only played about three records after my last cleaning session, the first one, an old copy of Ian Dury's New Boots and Panties!! sounded horrible on the first track, so I took it off, examined it under a bright light (we only use a couple of dim lamps in the evening) and I can only imagine someone's been attempting to scratch with it, the first track has visible damage, the bottom of the grooves actually looked white, I've never seen anything like it. The rest of that side looked ok but I couldn't be bothered to try it. I then played a couple of Shakatak LPs which sounded very poppy and noisy, so I looked at them under the light and realised I hadn't cleaned them at all, they were filthy (visible patches of surface dirt)! I haven't cleaned them yet, they'll be a proper test.

Mmm . . . I think the manual trough type cleaning systems are messey anyway, my answer is, do it in the shed, one will not be doing more than say half a dozen - to a dozen in one hit. My thinking, in cold weather the solution wont evaporate quick enough, its a messy job in the house any way, up the shed I can spin to my hearts content. Bring the rack of clean records down to the house, stand on the kitchen table for a while which has a radiatior close by.

I have also read on the web, the solution supplied with Disco-Antistat, did not evaporate properly, leaving a 'white residue'? As I say thats what I have read, it was prodably 6 or 9 months ago. I will mix my own 3 to 1 + a drop of Fairy or rins aid, need to pop out for a bottle of 'vintage Halfords'

CJSF

 

[ifor]

I've never used an RCM, but I eliminated a huge amount of pops and crackles by switching from a felt mat to an Achrimat from Inspire Hi Fi.

 

[progwardy]

The various recipes I found kept going on about the purest water you can get! Sure it doesn't make a difference and the only water I could find at the time was from eBay and was...triple distilled!

 

[DistortedVision]

progwardy, I'm surprised I missed this thread when you made your original post.

I've been using the original Okki Nokki exclusively with L'Art du Son for 8 years now so I feel I can be some assistance. I am in regular contact with Martina Schoener who developed L'Art du Son. To answer your questions:

1. Best fluid - L'Art du Son. Personally I don't think anything comes close.

2. Cleaning is mostly chemical but mechanical action is needed to losen the bonds between the record surface and dirt

3. Strongly recommend the Disc Doctor Miracle Record Brushes. The original ones with the Okki Nokki are rubbish and these are the best I've found: http://discdoc.com/

4. I would steer clear of anti-static treatments. I always store my cleaned records in a Nagaoka No. 102 anti-static sleeve and use a Zerostat gun.

5. Have you been using a rinse stage in your cleaning process? It makes alot of difference.Something I came across was steam cleaning. Thought it sounded like a crazy idea but it actually works especially with very dirty records. Take a look at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6OjtKUZ048

Hope this helps?

 

[progwardy]

Thank you for this.

I've tried the L'Art du Son and various homebrew - all with good effect.

I changed the brushes straightaway - I will have a look at these as well.

My 'Zerostat' experience has not been good - one went back and the replacement seems equally ineffective. I have tried a Bib 'Groov-stat' which seems to be a lot better.

Yes- a rinse stage made a big difference.

There are still 'failures' in the cleaning process, but this is down to poor records - either the pressing or being uncared for and I am now a lot fussier (unless they are really cheap) as to what second hand vinyl I purchase.

In short I would encourage those who are getting frustrated in finding an effective cleaning regime to consider the purchase of an Okki Nokki or similar. There are some deals to be had in ex-demonstration or they do come up on classified hi-fi forums from time to time.

 

[Petherick]

I then played a couple of Shakatak LPs which sounded very poppy

Well what did you expect?

 

[The_Lhc]

I then played a couple of Shakatak LPs which sounded very poppy

Well what did you expect?

Bit more funk?

 

[DistortedVision]

I bought some Groove-stat a while ago but never tried. I don't generally like treatments which aren't permanent and need to be renewed. I also heard that it may be harmful to your stylus but I'm not sure if this is true.

I would really recommend you try steam cleaning for troublesome records.

Yes sadly vinyl mastering and pressing is nearly a lost art. Alot of people are trying to cash in on the vinyl revival. There are very few places capable of all analogue mastering. Abbey Road and Sterling Sound in New York are most notable. The result is alot poor quality new vinyl. I've had problems even with so called audiophile grade 180gsm vinyl.

Thank you for this.

I've tried the L'Art du Son and various homebrew - all with good effect.

I changed the brushes straightaway - I will have a look at these as well.

My 'Zerostat' experience has not been good - one went back and the replacement seems equally ineffective. I have tried a Bib 'Groov-stat' which seems to be a lot better.

Yes- a rinse stage made a big difference.

There are still 'failures' in the cleaning process, but this is down to poor records - either the pressing or being uncared for and I am now a lot fussier (unless they are really cheap) as to what second hand vinyl I purchase.

In short I would encourage those who are getting frustrated in finding an effective cleaning regime to consider the purchase of an Okki Nokki or similar. There are some deals to be had in ex-demonstration or they do come up on classified hi-fi forums from time to time.

 

[progwardy]

DistortedVision - thanks.

Loved the 'urrr analogue err record person' video! Do you have a recommended make of steam cleaner that does the job?

Have tried everything else why not this? Several forums have threads and much is very positive. The only concern would be warping / label soaking - but if it's a dog to start with there's not a huge amount to lose.

Kevin.