Not very impressed with Atmos

[Benedict_Arnold]

It's a little hard to visualise your whole system despite the description, which makes it harder to answer questions about your system, but I'll try...

1, I am thinking the front and rear speakers are set a little too high for ideal. Should I worry? 'er indoors will go bananas if I cut more holes just to move them up or down. As I said, it's easy enough, though, to turn the rears upside-down.

As long as you're within the ideal dispersion of the drivers, they should be fine where they are. Their position matters much more if you're very close to them, but the further you are away from two speakers, the wider their dispersion is. I would only worry if you were way off axis.

2, Should I add another pair of overhead speakers closer to the back wall (where the couch is) or not bother?

Do you feel this aspect of your soundfield is lacking? I usually find that rear speakers placed above head height can give good overhead effects.

3, Should I forget about using the in-wall fronts at all once I get the "proper stereo" speakers I want (probably ProAc Studio 140 Mark 2 or Studio 148)?

If it was my own system, I'd try not to mix conventional cabinet speakers with in-wall speakers, but I appreciate that sometimes it cannot be avoided in certain situations. I can't really comment on how well everything will gel together as I don't know what in-wall speakers you have, nor having heard your set up.

4, At the risk of loosing my manly parts to a rusty breadknife, should I think about adding some "side" speakers in the middle of the long walls or not bother?

Again, do you feel that your system is lacking in this area? Do you feel held back by not having them?

5, What about the front middle I mentioned above?

Are you referring to the Yamaha speaker? Again, it is hard to say as I can't quite get a proper handle on your layout, but it depends if the speaker itself is up to the quality of the rest of the speakers - I wouldn't put a speaker somewhere just because I could - I'd rather not bother if it wasn't up to the same quality/capabilities of the other speakers.

6, How on earth does the receiver figure out where all these speakers are anyway?

The speaker connections on the back of the receiver will be marked for specific places, so it'll know what each speaker's job is supposed to be - it's just then down to the auto setup to sort out distances and levels. The auto EQ should help different manufacturer's speakers to sound more like each other, but again, I wouldn't use it as a main fix.m

I'm thinking about a Yamaha RX-A2050 receiver which I believe will do 7.1.2 or 5.1.4 Atmos. Currently I have an Onkyo TX-NR717 which won't do either 4K pass-through or Atmos, which is why it's going to be replaced sooner rather than later.

The AV receiver is going to govern the quality of everything. Your speakers can be the best speakers in the world, but if the processing, pre-amplification, power amplification, and DAC implementation of the receiver isn't up to scratch, or is the weak point in the system, the quality (and amount of) speakers cannot make up for it. Get the best AV receiver you can. Personally, I'd look at the RXA3050, especially if you're looking to run high quality hi-fi speakers from it. But either will be an upgrade on the 717.

Thanks David

The speakers are all Yamaha "Natural Sound" jobs, which I understand aren't common in the UK, but you can see them on the US Yamaha.com or amazon.com sites. They're good enough, modestly priced, and fitted into the plasterboard very easily.

I'm going to play tonight and tomorrow with a different Bluray (Sony BD-SP7200) that I happened to have lying around and using the digital co-ax output into the receiver rather than the current "Heath Robinson" setup of HDMIs to the TV and the receiver plus a fiber optic to the receiver as well. Something isn't working right there. The plan is to try and coax 7.1 sound out of the 717, which I'm not sure I'm getting right now. The rears don't seem to be producing much sound at all, and the ceiling middles seem too far forward for my liking, or where 'er indoors wanted the couch, so maybe a 5.1.4 setup is where I need to be looking. Not sure yet.

As for the fronts being, as I put it "proper stereo" speakers, probably ProAcs as I said, they'll be fed by a "proper stereo" as well. I still don't think surround sound receivers are up to the same level for music as the Cyrus or Primare separates I'm looking at (and recommendations on which would be welcome, but that's another topic). The front outs from the receiver would be fed into the "Aux" inputs on the "proper stereo" pre-amp. I did this in the UK with my 2009-10 era Cyrus-X based system, and I'm happy enough to play with the volume knobs as and when needed. Therefore a 2050, which is about as much as I can justify anyway, will (have to) do.

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

Well.

That worked a treat.

Hooked the BDP directly to the TV, and the digital oc-axial up to the receiver. Set everything up and popped Apocalypse Now Redux in the tray. Fast forwarded to the helicoptery bits. If surround sound doesn't work with those, it isn't working, I thought.

Well, I now have proper 7.1 surround sound and a 4K picture and I'm a happy bunny. The helicopters sound like they're flying overhead, mainly I suppose, because the middle surround speakers are in the ceiling.

Tomorrow night I'll test it with the media PC and some already ripped Blurays, see how that works.

Bad news for the hometheatre business - I don't think I really need a new receiver OR more speakers, although I'm going to add a second sub to balance things out left / right. I can save the money for my "proper stereo" or a 4K projector and screen.

 

[The_Lhc]

If you're only using coax into the receiver you won't be getting the HD audio codecs, coax doesn't have the bandwidth to deal with it. Seems a bit daft to go to all that trouble just to hamstring yourself at the last minute.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Although he would get DTS-HR and Dolby Digital Plus, which are, in my opinion, the biggest step up in noticeable sound quality (a bit like the jump in picture quality from 576 or 720). Sure, True HD and Master Audio are better, but the jump up to "basic" high definition is the biggest improvement. I was reminded recently during my October Horror Fest about the difference between DD and DTS on the DVD format - huge difference.

Ideally though, as you say, he needs to use the HDMI connection to get the high res sound formats. One problem I think he's getting though is that not all AV receivers (particularly from around the time of the 717) can change the incoming 5.1 signal to 7.1 via HDMI due to restrictions. Even then, I did read that if the receiver could do it, the audio resolution was dropped to achieve this. I did try it on a receiver at the time and it did in fact drop the sampling frequency in order to "expand" to 7.1 from 5.1. I don't think this has ever been confirmed, but you can try it at home if your receiver has a status screen given you all the current specs regarding audio and video.

 

[The_Lhc]

Dolby digital plus is not hi-def, it just has an extra rear channel surely? I've never heard of dts HR!

 

[Frank Harvey]

Dolby digital plus is not hi-def, it just has an extra rear channel surely?

Its not classed as a "hi-res" format no, but the it is a bigger increase in sound quality over standard Dolby Digital than DD+ to TrueHD. Probably because DD isn't particularly good...

I've never heard of dts HR!

It's called DTS HD HR (High Resolution). I did watch one film recently on Blu that was using format, but it's rare, as it's only used when there's not enough space on a Bluray for full MA. But seeing as most video doesn't take up any more than half the disc, it's rarely used.

What I should actually have said, is that optical or coax allows Dolby Digital Plus or core DTS (just straight DTS). Standard DD was always about half the bit rate of "full bit rate" DTS, which was why it didn't sound as good.

I did once have a very informative chart of all sound formats with their bit rates with other specs which I'll have to dig out at some point for a refresh.

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

Works for me, though. So I'm happy. And we're talking about surround sound here, not critical playback of the Royal Philharmonic, chaps.

If / when I get a new receiver I can play with the options again, but for now it'll do. The 4K picture was the priority for me, then surround sound. Super-dooper-with-a-cherry-on-top surroind sound can wait.

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

FWIW the 717, with the latest firmware updates, has DTS-HD Plus decoding ( whatever that means) and 4k upscaling (but not pass through). I think the problem I was having was, perhaps, that putting an already upscaled 4k HDMI feed into the thing was confusing its dear old audio circuits. Right now its working, I'm getting a 4k picture and decent 7.1 audio, so I'm happy enough.
I would try connecting the HDMI feed back to the receiver and thence to the TV but I'm not convinced it'll work. And the old maxim "if it ain't broke don't mend it" applies pretty well.

 

[bigboss]

FWIW the 717, with the latest firmware updates, has DTS-HD Plus decoding ( whatever that means) and 4k upscaling (but not pass through). I think the problem I was having was, perhaps, that putting an already upscaled 4k HDMI feed into the thing was confusing its dear old audio circuits. Right now its working, I'm getting a 4k picture and decent 7.1 audio, so I'm happy enough.
I would try connecting the HDMI feed back to the receiver and thence to the TV but I'm not convinced it'll work. And the old maxim "if it ain't broke don't mend it" applies pretty well.

Yes, it will decode HD audio codecs via HDMI but sound will be downscaled via coaxial as it cannot pass HD audio. The difference is huge, but obviously depends on your priorities.

 

[The_Lhc]

FWIW the 717, with the latest firmware updates, has DTS-HD Plus decoding ( whatever that means) and 4k upscaling (but not pass through). I think the problem I was having was, perhaps, that putting an already upscaled 4k HDMI feed into the thing was confusing its dear old audio circuits. Right now its working, I'm getting a 4k picture and decent 7.1 audio, so I'm happy enough.
I would try connecting the HDMI feed back to the receiver and thence to the TV but I'm not convinced it'll work. And the old maxim "if it ain't broke don't mend it" applies pretty well.

Well the more obvious answer would actually be turn off the 4k upscaling on the blu-ray player (or whatever you're feeding the amp with) and then allow the amp to upscale the picture.

Come on man, you're an engineer, you should be able to work this stuff out easily!

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

Well Simon, You're Right
Tried Apocalypse now direct HDMI into the receiver. I got DTS-HD sound but only a 1080p.
Went back to HDMI direct to the TV and coaxial audio to the receiver and got DTS (not HD) but a 4k picture.
Double checked with Far From The Madding Crowd, same result.
TBH I can't tell the difference in the sound but I can tell the difference in the picture, so I guess I go the way I am unless / until I get a new receiver.
Two and a half weeks to my fiftieth...

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

FWIW the 717, with the latest firmware updates, has DTS-HD Plus decoding ( whatever that means) and 4k upscaling (but not pass through). I think the problem I was having was, perhaps, that putting an already upscaled 4k HDMI feed into the thing was confusing its dear old audio circuits. Right now its working, I'm getting a 4k picture and decent 7.1 audio, so I'm happy enough.
I would try connecting the HDMI feed back to the receiver and thence to the TV but I'm not convinced it'll work. And the old maxim "if it ain't broke don't mend it" applies pretty well.

Well the more obvious answer would actually be turn off the 4k upscaling on the blu-ray player (or whatever you're feeding the amp with) and then allow the amp to upscale the picture.

Come on man, you're an engineer, you should be able to work this stuff out easily!

Well, I guess I can try that as well...

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

Well now I'm getting 4k and DTS-HD Master (whatever that is) from the Bluray via the receiver, but the media PC doesn't like the receiver at all. So the PC is connected directly to the TV with a separate fibre optic for audio and all I'm getting is vanilla DTS. And yes its got a 4k graphics card and a 7.1 sound card.
Maybe a new receiver is needed after all. Grumble grumble grumble...

 

[7760]

I've never heard of dts HR!

It's called DTS HD HR (High Resolution). I did watch one film recently on Blu that was using format, but it's rare, as it's only used when there's not enough space on a Bluray for full MA. But seeing as most video doesn't take up any more than half the disc, it's rarely used.

The recent film 'The Hundred-foot Journey' has it, oddly, as well as of course 'Planet Earth'.

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

Still playing. Halloween "trick-or-treating" (hate it) and buying a new TV for the living room interrupted things. Added to which the 17 year old managed to dent the bull bars and fron bumper on his Doge Ram pickup truck. $1500 worth or I'm a Ductchman. Grrrr....

My media PC graphic card (ZOTAC NVIDEA GEForce GT740, model ZT-71006-10L - chosen because it's low profile to match the PC case), is supposed to ouptut 4K and Dolby DTS-HD via the HDMI socket. I suspect the sound card I added to get an optical digital output may have been a step backwards, so I'm going to pull that tonight, reset the PC from scratch, mess around with the graphics card resolutions and see what happens.

Fingers crossed and I'll report back.

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

Well, last night I finally got the chance to pull the soundcard out of the PC. Did that then deleted all the drivers and software I could find, then I reset Windows 10 off the Windows DVD so as to be sure everything got set up again properly.

I now have 7.1 sound coming out of the HDMI (not sure what kind of 7.1 sound but it's 7.1 sound), and a 4K picture!

Not sure if the receiver is upscaling or if the graphics card is outputting 4K at 25 FPS, I think the latter, which makes me think the receiver may be passing trhough 4K pictures after all (all be it at 25 FPS - not ideal).

More knob-twiddling tonight I think, but at least I've got 4K and some sort of 7.1 over the HDMI. Fitting the sound card was definitely a backwards, or at the very least unnecessary step. Not sure what sort of 7.1 but it is 7.1. Going to see if I can output from the PC at 4K 50 or 60 FPS, or downgrade to 1080p and 50 or 60 FPS and have the receiver upscale, or whether to stick with what I've got and live with it.

But it would appear that there is no need to buy a new receiver until next year when all the Atmos vs. DTS-X HDMI 2.0 and HDCP2.2 issues finally shake out. I can concentrate on saving up for the 4K projector instead (just got to watch for all the same issues there, grrr....)

For reference, intel i5-3570K 3.4 GHz quad core CPU on Asus P8B75-M/CSM motherboard, 16 gigs of RAM, ZOTAC ZT-71006-10L NVIDIA GT740 2GB DDR3 low profile graphics card, Silverstone Tek MIlo HTPC low profile case, Windows 10. Samsung 120 GB SSD for software, RAID10 spinning rust for everything else.

Happy bunny.