Non-essentials... when to upgrade?

[insider9]

Ok, lots of debates recently and I'm sure WHF servers were getting hot over last few days. I've been wondering and this is somewhat an extension to what someone on here has said. Paraphrased but nevertheless it sparked this chain of thought.

What's essential to any system is quite simple speakers connected to an amp (sometimes one thing if powered) plus source. These are essential to have music playing. Changes to these will make a big difference.

The will be of course connected with cables but power cables often come with equipment and speaker cables and interconnects can be had for a minimal cost considering we just want the thing to work. So I'll class these with the rest below.

Now consider all "non-essentials" upgrades to cables including power cables, power conditioning, components isolation, speaker isolation, acoustic room treatment, racks, chairs, DSP and other forms of room correction, digital cables including LAN cables.

How should one go about it to get the biggest improvement? What would be the agreed steps. When does one upgrade the essentials, when the non-essentials as a rule? And particularly when to upgrade non-essential? We can all agree that you don't want to pay as much for a power lead as an amp (I hope). And in such scenario you'd first upgrade an amp.

Also in what order would you upgrade the non essentials and why? What non-essentials made the biggest difference in your system?

 

[ellisdj]

Its acoustics first surely as that has an effect on what you already have and everything else that follows from there on.

Interested in what other people think, as I am very narrow minded in this regard these days

 

[insider9]

Let's go with this. As not everyone will be able to make this adjustment. How would you decide what to spend on it? Relative to your essentials. And what would be your next step?

It will be different for everyone and we'll have different experiences so please do join in.

 

[ellisdj]

If you mean acoustics - you actually dont need to spend a lot to see a nice gain.

I think about £400 - £500 you can get maybe 3 nice art or wood fronted nice looking panels 1 each side wall and one behind the head is a nice start but your not going to improve bass that way as we know, but it will help with focus and imaging in a lot of cases.

After this I think power then source

 

[Blacksabbath25]

Ok, lots of debates recently and I'm sure WHF servers were getting hot over last few days. I've been wondering and this is somewhat an extension to what someone on here has said. Paraphrased but nevertheless it sparked this chain of thought.

What's essential to any system is quite simple speakers connected to an amp (sometimes one thing if powered) plus source. These are essential to have music playing. Changes to these will make a big difference.

The will be of course connected with cables but power cables often come with equipment and speaker cables and interconnects can be had for a minimal cost considering we just want the thing to work. So I'll class these with the rest below.

Now consider all "non-essentials" upgrades to cables including power cables, power conditioning, components isolation, speaker isolation, acoustic room treatment, racks, chairs, DSP and other forms of room correction, digital cables including LAN cables.

How should one go about it to get the biggest improvement? What would be the agreed steps. When does one upgrade the essentials, when the non-essentials as a rule? And particularly when to upgrade non-essential? We can all agree that you don't want to pay as much for a power lead as an amp (I hope). And in such scenario you'd first upgrade an amp.

Also in what order would you upgrade the non essentials and why? What non-essentials made the biggest difference in your system?

changing my amplifier as done a lot for me but I did have my doubts but that’s not the case for me now but I do feel you can a lot of change from changing a amplifier but the speakers are just important as well .

but before buying the Yamaha I was looking at new speakers but found when I went to demo new speakers and going back to my old speakers in a demo with a different amplifier I came away feeling that my old speakers sounded pretty good with a different amplifier so went the amplifier road instead of buying new speakers .

And as your mind is always ticking Dali epicon 6s play on my mind and you think what would they sound like on my Yamaha but buying the best possible amplifier and speakers you can afford makes a lot of difference in my opinion as you can always buy a good Dac’s to fine tune things later on .

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

There isn’t an answer really I don’t think because it depends on lots of things like existing kit, budget etc, but concentrating on the essential like speakers and amplification should be above digital sources which are all pretty good. Speakers often don’t get upgraded for sentimental and aesthetic reasons and you see people upgrading amps to the exclusion of speakers, and then wondering why not much extra performance is gained. I suppose being a realist to max performance of speakers and when to get rid of them is key in all this.

 

[insider9]

Ok, thanks Ellisdj. So if you're acoustics spend would be £400-£500 for a start what would you say would need to be a value of your system to make this worthwhile and economically justifiable? You would've treat the room for a pair of Sonos 1 or would you?

Also source for the purpose of this thread would be essential so if we could leave it out. Thanks

Power however once again how much would you expect to see gains and is there any relation to equipment used? Any particular thing to do with power? Also you would notice differences with acoustic room treatment irrespective of the system, would this be the same with power?

And finally cost ratio once more refer to Sonos 1 example.

 

[insider9]

changing my amplifier as done a lot for me but I did have my doubts but that’s not the case for me now but I do feel you can a lot of change from changing a amplifier but the speakers are just important as well .

but before buying the Yamaha I was looking at new speakers but found when I went to demo new speakers and going back to my old speakers in a demo with a different amplifier I came away feeling that my old speakers sounded pretty good with a different amplifier so went the amplifier road instead of buying new speakers .

And as your mind is always ticking Dali epicon 6s play on my mind and you think what would they sound like on my Yamaha but buying the best possible amplifier and speakers you can afford makes a lot of difference in my opinion as you can always buy a good  Dac’s to fine tune things later on  .

But leaving the equipment (essentials) out of it. At what point would you say... I should upgrade my speaker wire or power conditioning etc. As opposed to thinking you need to change speakers next?

 

[CnoEvil]

Firstly, can I go off at a tangent - did you ever describe the (subjective) effect on the sound, by putting your speakers on the isolation platform?....and did it marry up to what you measured?

I have come to the view, that you are either somebody who thinks most of these things make a difference....or you are somebody who thinks it's all bollox, sold by snake-oil salesmen, to lighten the wallets of the gullible.

If you are from the latter group, the chances are, that you wouldn't waste your time even trying it.

Personally, I don't think there is a definitive answer to your question - as IME. different systems, in different rooms, in different areas (where mains might be more polluted) react differently .

Where possible, it's possible to try cheap DIY solutions (like plywood platforms, Blu-Tak, halved squash balls, paving stones, Kiln Dried sand in Speaker Stands etc)...and if this brings an improvement, then one can demo more expensive solutions.

If possible, I like to go to the basics - look at room acoustics, speaker positioning and if possible, run a separate electrical circuit to your Hifi.

I have not personally liked the effect that Re-generators, Conditioners and Filters have had on my system...but did like an expensive Balanced Mains Transformer.

 

[ellisdj]

I have never played with a Sonos I am in territory there I cant comment on, it would be easy to miss inform in this instance.

I was speaking to chap at Bristol who did the Isotek demo and then came on camera for an interview. he has a Sonos system now and was massively impressed by the step up to the 2 box system in the room with Larsen Speakers.

We spoke a bit about mains products - he was very impressed by the Isotek Aquarius, my advice to him was you will be buying a new system when you move house - why dont you buy the Aquarius first and see how it affect the sound of the Sonos.

That might have been terrible advice if the Sonos system is all wireless I dont know it just dawned on me ... ha ha

 

[insider9]

There isn’t an answer really I don’t think because it depends on lots of things like existing kit, budget etc, but concentrating on the essential like speakers and amplification should be above digital sources which are all pretty good. Speakers often don’t get upgraded for sentimental and aesthetic reasons  and you see people upgrading amps to the exclusion of speakers, and then wondering why not much extra performance is gained. I suppose being a realist to max performance of speakers and when to get rid of them is key in all this. 

Hence I'm asking for experiences. And trying to understand what others do. And what out if it works and what doesn't. And how to avoid mistakes for myself. I think we can all agree we make them.

My question to you would be I did notice the value of your cables to be in excess of £2k. Would you say this is a worthwhile upgrade to your system. Would you not get better performance from investing a bulk of the money spent in upgrading speakers or acoustic room treatment?

If you think that's the case how come is it that you've spent so much on cables? Is it that they're a smaller one off cost, the fact you'd need them anyway or something else. Simply trying to understand.

If course if you believe they add this much value to your setup I won't question this. But would like to know. Thanks

 

[Blacksabbath25]

changing my amplifier as done a lot for me but I did have my doubts but that’s not the case for me now but I do feel you can a lot of change from changing a amplifier but the speakers are just important as well .

but before buying the Yamaha I was looking at new speakers but found when I went to demo new speakers and going back to my old speakers in a demo with a different amplifier I came away feeling that my old speakers sounded pretty good with a different amplifier so went the amplifier road instead of buying new speakers .

And as your mind is always ticking Dali epicon 6s play on my mind and you think what would they sound like on my Yamaha but buying the best possible amplifier and speakers you can afford makes a lot of difference in my opinion as you can always buy a good Dac’s to fine tune things later on .

But leaving the equipment (essentials) out of it. At what point would you say... I should upgrade my speaker wire or power conditioning etc. As opposed to thinking you need to change speakers next?

I do not think that way I brought audioquest rocket speaker cables and happy with the results and no point in changing them for something better and that’s if it is better without trying which I know trying comes into it but I feel spending silly money on the most expensive cables doesn’t do anything for me I would rather spend that money on a amplifier or really good set of speakers as I feel the biggest gains come from this I feel .

 

[ellisdj]

The only snag with going big on the acoustic treatment is you hear more of the truth in what the system is doing, no extra dynamics added from room echo and stuff which is how those Boenecke work - like what Bose was advocating decades ago - shows really how far ahead they were in some regards.

Thats not me trying to put anyone off it, far from it - its not the magic wand to audio nirvana but is a big help

 

[insider9]

Firstly, can I go off at a tangent - did you ever describe the (subjective) effect on the sound, by putting your speakers on the isolation platform?....and did it marry up to what you measured?

I have come to the view, that you are either somebody who thinks most of these things make a difference....or you are somebody who thinks it's all bollox, sold by snake-oil salesmen, to lighten the wallets of the gullible.

If you are from the latter group, the chances are, that you wouldn't waste your time even trying it.

Personally, I don't think there is a definitive answer to your question - as IME. different systems, in different rooms, in different areas (where mains might be more polluted) react differently .

Where possible, it's possible to try cheap DIY solutions (like plywood platforms, Blu-Tak, halved squash balls, paving stones, Kiln Dried sand in Speaker Stands etc)...and if this brings an improvement, then one can demo more expensive solutions.

If possible, I like to go to the basics - look at room acoustics, speaker positioning and if possible, run a separate electrical circuit to your Hifi.

I have not personally liked the effect that Re-generators, Conditioners and Filters have had on my system...but did like an expensive Balanced Mains Transformer.

I did and it brought a worthwhile improvement to the sound. Thanks Cno for pointing out the obvious to me on the other thread. I was going to update the thread but there was so much going on I still didn't. I definitely will.

Also I don't think I'm in either of the groups you describe. I'm neither a believer nor disbeliever. Some things will work and some won't. Sometimes the measurements won't show the sonic difference where there will be one. However in these cases we usually measure the wrong thing But in the absence of data and with only claims by manufacturers you need to be careful so need to have an open mind both ways.

Not be gullible to buy just about anything but also not be stubborn to refuse to try things.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

There isn’t an answer really I don’t think because it depends on lots of things like existing kit, budget etc, but concentrating on the essential like speakers and amplification should be above digital sources which are all pretty good. Speakers often don’t get upgraded for sentimental and aesthetic reasons and you see people upgrading amps to the exclusion of speakers, and then wondering why not much extra performance is gained. I suppose being a realist to max performance of speakers and when to get rid of them is key in all this.

Hence I'm asking for experiences. And trying to understand what others do. And what out if it works and what doesn't. And how to avoid mistakes for myself. I think we can all agree we make them.

My question to you would be I did notice the value of your cables to be in excess of £2k. Would you say this is a worthwhile upgrade to your system. Would you not get better performance from investing a bulk of the money spent in upgrading speakers or acoustic room treatment?

If you think that's the case how come is it that you've spent so much on cables? Is it that they're a smaller one off cost, the fact you'd need them anyway or something else. Simply trying to understand.

If course if you believe they add this much value to your setup I won't question this. But would like to know. Thanks

i think if you have a speaker you are happy with at a level of performance which is more than very good, then you don’t need to go further. I upgraded speakers jan 17, so relatively recent addition.

I could have bought better speakers as amps out of pace with speakers on price, but I love the pmc cyrus sound, but I’m inclined to say you are right on value of cables. They aren’t value and better speakers would give more improvements than cables would. They do what I want soundwise especially Epic Reference as there is nothing like it, but the Xlr signature tuned array cable I have clearly isn’t vfm. It’s very good cable.

but what would upgraded speakers be possibly? I need small floorstanders, not big ones as I listen mostly at modest levels, and don’t want huge speakers to dominate. I need good clarity, good bass response. If you’ve heard these 25-23s they are magical. What would be better. Totem Hawk around £4K I think doesn’t compete.

 

[ellisdj]

Whats intersting for Sabbath is he is naturally drawn to the Epicons which is understandable they are beautiful and awesome but at that price level there are 50+ other pairs out there also awesome. Is it sensible to stay with a brand you love or actually go listen to others just to make sure they are still your top dog?

 

[insider9]

By the way I have been doing demos on Friday and the questionable choice of tracks was somewhat caused by your tongue in cheek thread I wasn't taking a mickey just thought it was funny to do "audiophile" tests on tracks like that. Which I actually like.

 

[insider9]

There isn’t an answer really I don’t think because it depends on lots of things like existing kit, budget etc, but concentrating on the essential like speakers and amplification should be above digital sources which are all pretty good. Speakers often don’t get upgraded for sentimental and aesthetic reasons  and you see people upgrading amps to the exclusion of speakers, and then wondering why not much extra performance is gained. I suppose being a realist to max performance of speakers and when to get rid of them is key in all this. 

Hence I'm asking for experiences. And trying to understand what others do. And what out if it works and what doesn't. And how to avoid mistakes for myself. I think we can all agree we make them.

My question to you would be I did notice the value of your cables to be in excess of £2k. Would you say this is a worthwhile upgrade to your system. Would you not get better performance from investing a bulk of the money spent in upgrading speakers or acoustic room treatment?

If you think that's the case how come is it that you've spent so much on cables? Is it that they're a smaller one off cost, the fact you'd need them anyway or something else. Simply trying to understand.

If course if you believe they add this much value to your setup I won't question this. But would like to know. Thanks

 

i think if you have a speaker you are happy with at a level of performance which is more than very good, then you don’t need to go further. I upgraded speakers jan 17, so relatively recent addition. 

I could have bought better speakers as amps out of pace with speakers on price, but I love the pmc cyrus sound, but I’m inclined to say you are right on value of cables. They aren’t value and better speakers would give more improvements than cables would. They do what I want soundwise especially Epic Reference as there is nothing like it, but the Xlr signature tuned array cable I have clearly isn’t vfm. It’s very good cable.

but what would upgraded speakers be possibly? I need small floorstanders, not big ones as I listen mostly at modest levels, and don’t want huge speakers to dominate. I need good clarity, good bass response. If you’ve heard these 25-23s they are magical. What would be better. Totem Hawk around £4K I think doesn’t compete. 

Ahhh indeed it makes more sense now Quest, thanks. I too have speakers I like and don't want to part with.

Have you thought about acoustic room treatment? Do you reckon it would be a worthwhile addition and one of next upgrades?

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

I don’t like the look of it if I’m honest but if I had a dedicated room I would do it.

Sorry slightly off the thread (I’ll start new one) but related to upgrade, I’ve just put on this clearer audio copper line alpha one power cables on my power amps. Got them this am. Nothing fancy cablewuse but I’m getting better balanced detail than the kettle leads and not screaming in your face unbalanced detail with hazy treble like the Titan Helios. It’s realky nice , think will keep them. Should I take fuses out of cyrus power amp kettle leads and put them in if different?suppse wise.

what speaker would be better than pmc twenty5 23 do you reckon of same type or similar small floorstander design? Not many forward facing bass ports too.

 

[ellisdj]

why would you change the fuse unless your putting in an SR Blue?

 

[Blacksabbath25]

Whats intersting for Sabbath is he is naturally drawn to the Epicons which is understandable they are beautiful and awesome but at that price level there are 50+ other pairs out there also awesome. Is it sensible to stay with a brand you love or actually go listen to others just to make sure they are still your top dog?

I agree with you there probably are lots of different speakers out there that would easily make Dali epicon 6s not look so good and they have been out for some time but speaker tech doesn’t change that much just different designs and small improvements but the basics are still the same .

I like the Dali epicon 6s for the looks and for the sound but I can only afford one step at a time as I’ve just brought an expensive amplifier the most expensive I’ve ever brought in all the years I’ve been into hifi but will end up with the Dali epicon 6s some day but I also find that the Dali speakers are a great match with Yamaha amplifiers on a sonic level so I kind of play safe and sticking with the brand .

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

I agree it’s a bit like buying a car, you buy what you know and trust. Human buying behaviour.

 

[ellisdj]

I didnt mean other speaker would make them seem less good - its just people change over time, develop a differrent appreciation for things based on more experiences gained etc, or its just sometimes good to have a change, or stick with what you know of course.

 

[insider9]

I've not heard your system so can comment. If you get a chance to listen to some Boenicke W8 (£6k) I would definitely recommend a long demo. During a short one you will be astounded with the sound coming out of the what effectively are tiny speakers. I'm not sure how they'd work in your room.

I've also recently listened to PSI A21m (£5.5k) and they ware also fab. Standmounts active but very good. Be honest not my price category so won't be much help.

As to room treatment I get your reservations but the results would be worth it. If you ever consider let me know I'd be interested to work out how to make if visually acceptable for someone demanding.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

I didnt mean other speaker would make them seem less good - its just people change over time, develop a differrent appreciation for things based on more experiences gained etc, or its just sometimes good to have a change, or stick with what you know of course.

I like your Kefs but never heard them for real and most probably if I found out about a different speaker brand that would really work well with Yamaha I would demo them of course I would as I am pretty open minded because it’s about getting as close as you can possibly get to perfection which we are all after that but whether we all find it in the end I am not sure as none of us are totally satisfied with what we have and pretty sure older members on would say no they never find it yet but basically satisfied with what they got .

And sure a lot of us on here have spent £££££ over the years and I am only just finding out now how good sound can get now and I am 47 years old