Non-essentials... when to upgrade?

[ellisdj]

I am only just finding out now how good sound can get now and I am 47 years old

Thats the best bit about it isnt it - a chap from WHF towers said to me years ago - Terry it just keeps getting better

 

[jmjones]

You have to guess a bit and take a punt against the budget you can afford.

Borrow it first if you can. Demo whatever you can get. Preferably borrow something from a dealer that is significantly different/more expensive than you have

If you can check room acoustics, do it. I would add that in my case room treatment is out. I can understand how for some people that is the most impressive change.

If my experience, speaker cables "worked" (replaced the bell wire on one of my earlier systems and was quite impressed). Interestingly more expensive speaker cable and biwiring didn't do a lot more, but I still have them in place.

Digital interconnects at several price levels did nowt for me. I have still have those in place too, if only because I don't like buying cheap gear(!!).

Product isolation - depends on circumstances. After I had moved to a house with a concrete/vinyl floor I'm pretty sure it made no odds whether I used speaker pads, spikes or otherwise. On a suspended wooden floor, I thought slabs was best (but you had to be cranking it to notice). Similar for source components - get the record deck on a wall shelf, other than that depends what you have them on. Try a few halved squash balls if you like.

Sources of mains power - did nothing for me, although I have a surge protected block in place. In my last two properties I have had to make dedicated mains cable runs, purely because of room layout. Possibly as a result I have not noticed any mains effects. (No fridges clicking, etc.)

If you like tinkering it's a good addition to the hobby. Good luck with it.

 

[newlash09]

My essentials would be :

Speakers
Amplification
Dac
Digital source
Just throw in some decent cables, and don't worry after that.

If I have room for a second system, I would start building a small, intimate setup which would be stellar only on vocals. Probably around tubes and single driver speakers. This would be strictly for my personal listening with some Glenlivet 21.

The first main setup would be a all round performer, used by both my wife and daughter. I wouldn't throw money at it, changing cables and other stuff to get the sound I want. With the money saved, I would start my second setup.

 

[Craig M.]

Things I’d spend on are room acoustics, and maybe speaker isolation. I’d definitely want to demo speaker isolation before buying though, seems all my floor woes were caused by spiking into the floorboards. I’ve tried cables (speaker, interconnects, power) and gave up after blind testing them (heard differences sighted but not blind), also tried a power conditioner but same result as with cables, so wouldn’t spend on those anymore. DSP is something i’d want to demo first too, just to make sure in fixing one problem I didn’t introduce another. Don’t need racks or stands anymore but my mind is not made up about those, so they’d be a maybe.

 

[mond]

I always (used to anyway) search ebay and other sites to see if there are any bargains; interconnects, mains leads, isolation platforms, black ravioli!

Because of the nature of these items people are always buying and selling them

see what takes your fancy and have a punt, if it doesn't work then just flog it again for the same price; nothing to loose really!

I have found that speaker stands made a big difference as did my conditioning power lead, but different people will have different results with different systems.....

P.S best non essential extra for me was supertweeters - I would recommend trying some of these if you run out of other ideas

 

[insider9]

Nice, see I missed speaker stands and super tweeters. Probably because I use floorstanders with ribbon tweeters

I appreciate eBay tip and been doing this also in the past. However with so many things available you could just about spend all your money and still not improve anything.

From things I've noticed to make the most difference acoustic room treatment would the the one. Then DSP and most admit speaker isolation. These are all measurable and not small differences.

But that's me in my system in my listening room. This thread makes me wonder as Ellisdj had power before isolation... Ellisdj does this mean you have no suspended floor hence less (no) need, limited experience or didn't find it to make difference for you?

Cables so far has been minimal in all shapes and form including digital. Or is it perhaps because I use fab cables already

 

[insider9]

Things I’d spend on are room acoustics, and maybe speaker isolation.  I’d definitely want to demo speaker isolation before buying though, seems all my floor woes were caused by spiking into the floorboards.  I’ve tried cables (speaker, interconnects, power) and gave up after blind testing them (heard differences sighted but not blind), also tried a power conditioner but same result as with cables, so wouldn’t spend on those anymore.  DSP is something i’d want to demo first too, just to make sure in fixing one problem I didn’t introduce another.  Don’t need racks or stands anymore but my mind is not made up about those, so they’d be a maybe.

Craig I found spikes in my first floor listening room awful. I'd try without and this also may make a difference. If it does isolation then will likely improve things further.

 

[ellisdj]

I had power and source before isolation - yes I have a concrete floor - my room is naturally a reverb nightmare not any more - more anachoic now

 

[insider9]

Where would you class improvement on your system from power and speaker isolation? Which one made more difference to you?

 

[CnoEvil]

Also I don't think I'm in either of the groups you describe. I'm neither a believer nor disbeliever. Some things will work and some won't. Sometimes the measurements won't show the sonic difference where there will be one. However in these cases we usually measure the wrong thing But in the absence of data and with only claims by manufacturers you need to be careful so need to have an open mind both ways.

Not be gullible to buy just about anything but also not be stubborn to refuse to try things.

I was going to talk about the third group, but ran out of time, as I was running out the door.

The third group are those who are interested enough to try it. I like to see sceptical, objective people do this, who are from a science background...much like yourself. This (to me, at least), gives their findings a bit more credibility. If you hear an improvement that you can't explain, you might be able to find one, or be able to come up with a way of measuring it.

I am agostic about this stuff, until I try it. Personally, I'd rather find there was no difference, as it would save me money. If I believe I am getting an improvement, I will put a value on that improvement, which will determin whether I go ahead with it.

I had a friend, from a technical background, who gave me endless stick about my belief in Mains cables - with all the usual arguments. I brought him over and played music with the standard P/C. When I changed to an after-market one, he was convinced the difference he heard was down to some trickery that I'd pulled. It was not until he checked the back of the AVR600 and changed the thing over himself, that he, very reluctantly admitted that it made an improvement, but had no idea how.

He then went home and bought the parts to make his own. This anecdote is true...but is not proof. This was a few years ago now and he actually talked about it on here (under the name of First Aid).

 

[insider9]

I had power and source before isolation - yes I have a concrete floor - my room is naturally a reverb nightmare not any more - more anachoic now  

That make sense. Thanks. Still will be interested to hear your thoughts on speaker isolation once you get some.

 

[ellisdj]

Not "any other" CNo just the ones you tried unless you tried them all - also there can be potential other reasons for it as well - worth bearing in mind - dont rule out a whole thing based on experience of a few products

 

[insider9]

Thanks Cno. Interesting

At least it seems I'm on the right track. And I like the fact that so far every non essential upgrade I made is easily measurable.

Power cables? Can't see it... Tried once but tempted to do it again. The problem is your and Ellisdj's advice so far has been spot on.

 

[CnoEvil]

Not "any other" CNo just the ones you tried unless you tried them all - also there can be potential other reasons for it as well - worth bearing in mind - dont rule out a whole thing based on experience of a few products

I tried an Isol8 Regenerator and an Atlas Mains Block.

My preference was for the Atlas Balanced Mains Transformer (now dropped due to price of Copper)...and I felt that the Furutech Super Titan (demoed at the NI audio show a few years back), probably did more good than harm...but at mad money.

 

[ellisdj]

You will admit its only a couple tested at home cant rule them all out just the ones you have tried.

 

[CnoEvil]

You will admit its only a couple tested at home cant rule them all out just the ones you have tried.

Of course.

What I heard, some might call an improvement. To my ears, it made my system too analytical. I like smooth, yet dramatic/exciting; detailed, yet not clinical. Realistic, yet musically engaging.

 

[Craig M.]

*

Things I’d spend on are room acoustics, and maybe speaker isolation. I’d definitely want to demo speaker isolation before buying though, seems all my floor woes were caused by spiking into the floorboards. I’ve tried cables (speaker, interconnects, power) and gave up after blind testing them (heard differences sighted but not blind), also tried a power conditioner but same result as with cables, so wouldn’t spend on those anymore. DSP is something i’d want to demo first too, just to make sure in fixing one problem I didn’t introduce another. Don’t need racks or stands anymore but my mind is not made up about those, so they’d be a maybe.

Craig I found spikes in my first floor listening room awful. I'd try without and this also may make a difference. If it does isolation then will likely improve things further.

Surely you don’t think I’d identify spiking into the floor as an issue, and then leave the spikes in place? *wacko*

That’s why I’d want to demo any isolation first, removing the spikes has sorted the problem out.

 

[mond]

As a Linn DS owner, I also have the joys of "Space Optimisation" to play around with, this quote is from the Linn website;

"Space Optimisation uses sophisticated acoustic modelling to build up a complete picture of how your speakers, their placement, and the unique characteristics of your room interact to affect the sound you hear. It then precisely identifies frequencies that are artificially distorted by your environment, and reduces their energy, to reveal the music that would otherwise be hidden"

​This is at least the equivalent of changing isolation, cables, stands etc but you don't have to move from your arm chair or spend any (more) money

 

[insider9]

*

Things I’d spend on are room acoustics, and maybe speaker isolation.  I’d definitely want to demo speaker isolation before buying though, seems all my floor woes were caused by spiking into the floorboards.  I’ve tried cables (speaker, interconnects, power) and gave up after blind testing them (heard differences sighted but not blind), also tried a power conditioner but same result as with cables, so wouldn’t spend on those anymore.  DSP is something i’d want to demo first too, just to make sure in fixing one problem I didn’t introduce another.  Don’t need racks or stands anymore but my mind is not made up about those, so they’d be a maybe.

Craig I found spikes in my first floor listening room awful. I'd try without and this also may make a difference. If it does isolation then will likely improve things further.

Surely you don’t think I’d identify spiking into the floor as an issue, and then leave the spikes in place? *wacko*

That’s why I’d want to demo any isolation first, removing the spikes has sorted the problem out.

Looks like I might have, hahaha

Isolation I'm using is from American company Pyle Acoustics. If the somewhat industrial look doesn't bother you then you can give there a try. There's also Auralex that cost slightly more.

 

[CnoEvil]

Where would you class improvement on your system from power and speaker isolation? Which one made more difference to you?

My system was very bass light before isolation under the speakers. I also got a nice improvement with putting Black Ravioli (original pads) under the DS. The latter was blind tested, in that I had herself, while listening, saying whether I was adding or removing pads, without seeing what i was doing. She was correct every time. The improvement was not as significant as the speaker isolation.

IMO. The Power Cable made a difference on my amps...but not on the DS....and was not as significant as the isolation, but I felt it was still worthwhile.

Any other mains products made my system sound too analytical, so preferred the amp plugged straight into the wall. If it was practical, I'd wire a separate circuit to the hifi.

 

[ellisdj]

You will admit its only a couple tested at home cant rule them all out just the ones you have tried.

Of course.

What I heard, some might call an improvement. To my ears, it made my system too analytical. I like smooth, yet  dramatic/exciting; detailed, yet not clinical. Realistic, yet musically engaging.

I would fix that another way get a decent source in maybe

 

[ellisdj]

did you use the regenerator on the AVR 600?

 

[jimmy1]

I should really get new interconnects, was cleaning all the dust behind stereo and im still using some that came with a sony minidisc deck, god knows how old they are but they just look bad too

 

[CnoEvil]

did you use the regenerator on the AVR 600?

IIRC it was on the AMS35i...but it was a fair while ago.

 

[ellisdj]

Regenerators are not generally designed to make them suitable amplifiers apparently - I only found this as recently.

The PS Audio ones are a little different but in general there is a delay in the process which makes them no good for amps - maybe that is why - I was thinking the 600 would need a lot of juice but the MF even more