Blacksabbath25 said:Joking aside we are all guilty of being fanboys of one particular product weather it’s rubbish or not as there is nothing wrong in that as long as you like it that’s all that matters . *smile*
davedotco said:Oldskool1976 said:davedotco said:Oldskool1976 said:davedotco said:No one has the faintest idea how to build a decent vinyl based playback system, I'll give you a clue.
It does not start with a mediocre disco style turntable and a two bob cartridge.
You mean the same 12/10's that was in production for nearly 40 years, a turntable so legendary that it has now become an icon.Not only one of the best built turntables ever made but freaking bulletproof as well, plus its likely to go on forever with proper servicing.
Even in its current state with a "2 bob cartridge" it still decimates any budget player I've ever heard.Plus as Lindsey stated, add a better tonearm/cartridge and you're taking things to the next level.
I also see you've recommended him to spend £1700 for a upgrade over a "medicore style disco turnatable".
In which case the £400 12/10's are pretty epic if he needs to spend £1700+ for it to be a upgrade.
It is a direct descendant of the horrendously microphonic SL1200 and SL120 models of the 70s. The various 1210s never got rid of the microphony so have never provided a stable platform for any kind of hi-fi performance.
You think a turntable with microphonic problems would be used for decades at Clubs/Raves?? Never heard any major issues in a mixing environment or at hi-fi level.
They made decent broadcast/dj players due to their massive torque, instant stop/start capabilities, and relatively low cost.
Decent? I think you mean industry standard, the only viable competitor were the Vestaks and even then what turntable do you think DJ's/Clubs/Bedroom DJ's used?
They made a reputation for themselves as 'good' players in this application but this reputation had nothing to do with sound quality, just functionality.
As already said, a updated tonearm and cartidge would solve this if OP still feels this way after they've changed amp or speakers.
The £1700 Clearaudio package was chosen because of the sort of money that the OP was talking about spending, ie it would be an appropriate choice for his budget which seems to be in the £3500-5000 area.
No problem with this if listening to vinyl is a favoured source.
A £400 Project or similar would be a comfortable up grade on what the OP currently has.
It might sound different or maybe even preferable to OP but to say its a comfortable upgrade is wrong imo.
In order.
Yes. Special supports were required to reduce feedback and 'disco' cartridges were not exactly renowned for their fidelity. This in not a hi-fi environment, different rules apply.
Why use a mixing cartridge when demoing a hi-fi product?
The broadcast industry ran on players by Russco, Gates, EMT, Telefunken among others. The SP10 was used but was considered too expensive in most cases.
Upgrading the tonearm might be an interesting project, but the OP is no expert in these matters.
Plenty of people out there can, its certainly a option.
I have, in my previous life performed umpteen demonstrations of decent, often of quite modest cost, hi-fi turntables against various 1200/1210 models. I can not recall any occasions where the hi-fi player was not preferred. As I said earlier, this is hi-fi not disco, different rules apply.
The law of averages would state someone, somewhere would prefer the 12/10's once, thats if you were using the same cartridge on the Technics as the others.
But aside from that my own experience has been the complete opposite, besides most budget decks have shady build quality and questionable longevity.
Throw in the fact that 12/10's are increasing in value its a win/win.
Blacksabbath25 said:Joking aside we are all guilty of being fanboys of one particular product weather it’s rubbish or not as there is nothing wrong in that as long as you like it that’s all that matters . *smile*
Blacksabbath25 said:Did you watch them YouTube video’s of the in-depth testing on that Yamaha A-S1100 I posted the other day ? Because going by the diagrams he had the Yamaha A-S1100 is the same amplifier right though to the Yamaha A-S3000 expect it’s got the bigger power supply and extras but basically the same amplifier .
Blacksabbath25 said:How do they get the extra Watts on the A-S3000 compared to the A-S1100 when they are the same amplifier near abouts ? Is that about power supply ?
And everything tested accurate as well even the UVs read the right Watts being used and all parts have been brought in from Japan to make theses amplifiers . I was quite impressed by video 4Vladimir said:Blacksabbath25 said:How do they get the extra Watts on the A-S3000 compared to the A-S1100 when they are the same amplifier near abouts ? Is that about power supply ?
Yes. Slightly larger of everything in the PSU, transformer, caps, rectifiers. I doubt they needed to change the main transistors.
Oldskool1976 said:davedotco said:Oldskool1976 said:davedotco said:Oldskool1976 said:davedotco said:No one has the faintest idea how to build a decent vinyl based playback system, I'll give you a clue.
It does not start with a mediocre disco style turntable and a two bob cartridge.
You mean the same 12/10's that was in production for nearly 40 years, a turntable so legendary that it has now become an icon.Not only one of the best built turntables ever made but freaking bulletproof as well, plus its likely to go on forever with proper servicing.
Even in its current state with a "2 bob cartridge" it still decimates any budget player I've ever heard.Plus as Lindsey stated, add a better tonearm/cartridge and you're taking things to the next level.
I also see you've recommended him to spend £1700 for a upgrade over a "medicore style disco turnatable".
In which case the £400 12/10's are pretty epic if he needs to spend £1700+ for it to be a upgrade.
It is a direct descendant of the horrendously microphonic SL1200 and SL120 models of the 70s. The various 1210s never got rid of the microphony so have never provided a stable platform for any kind of hi-fi performance.
You think a turntable with microphonic problems would be used for decades at Clubs/Raves?? Never heard any major issues in a mixing environment or at hi-fi level.
They made decent broadcast/dj players due to their massive torque, instant stop/start capabilities, and relatively low cost.
Decent? I think you mean industry standard, the only viable competitor were the Vestaks and even then what turntable do you think DJ's/Clubs/Bedroom DJ's used?
They made a reputation for themselves as 'good' players in this application but this reputation had nothing to do with sound quality, just functionality.
As already said, a updated tonearm and cartidge would solve this if OP still feels this way after they've changed amp or speakers.
The £1700 Clearaudio package was chosen because of the sort of money that the OP was talking about spending, ie it would be an appropriate choice for his budget which seems to be in the £3500-5000 area.
No problem with this if listening to vinyl is a favoured source.
A £400 Project or similar would be a comfortable up grade on what the OP currently has.
It might sound different or maybe even preferable to OP but to say its a comfortable upgrade is wrong imo.
In order.
Yes. Special supports were required to reduce feedback and 'disco' cartridges were not exactly renowned for their fidelity. This in not a hi-fi environment, different rules apply.
Why use a mixing cartridge when demoing a hi-fi product?
The broadcast industry ran on players by Russco, Gates, EMT, Telefunken among others. The SP10 was used but was considered too expensive in most cases.
Upgrading the tonearm might be an interesting project, but the OP is no expert in these matters.
Plenty of people out there can, its certainly a option.
I have, in my previous life performed umpteen demonstrations of decent, often of quite modest cost, hi-fi turntables against various 1200/1210 models. I can not recall any occasions where the hi-fi player was not preferred. As I said earlier, this is hi-fi not disco, different rules apply.
The law of averages would state someone, somewhere would prefer the 12/10's once, thats if you were using the same cartridge on the Technics as the others.
But aside from that my own experience has been the complete opposite, besides most budget decks have shady build quality and questionable longevity.
Throw in the fact that 12/10's are increasing in value its a win/win.
davedotco said:Oldskool1976 said:davedotco said:Oldskool1976 said:davedotco said:Oldskool1976 said:davedotco said:No one has the faintest idea how to build a decent vinyl based playback system, I'll give you a clue.
It does not start with a mediocre disco style turntable and a two bob cartridge.
You mean the same 12/10's that was in production for nearly 40 years, a turntable so legendary that it has now become an icon.Not only one of the best built turntables ever made but freaking bulletproof as well, plus its likely to go on forever with proper servicing.
Even in its current state with a "2 bob cartridge" it still decimates any budget player I've ever heard.Plus as Lindsey stated, add a better tonearm/cartridge and you're taking things to the next level.
I also see you've recommended him to spend £1700 for a upgrade over a "medicore style disco turnatable".
In which case the £400 12/10's are pretty epic if he needs to spend £1700+ for it to be a upgrade.
It is a direct descendant of the horrendously microphonic SL1200 and SL120 models of the 70s. The various 1210s never got rid of the microphony so have never provided a stable platform for any kind of hi-fi performance.
You think a turntable with microphonic problems would be used for decades at Clubs/Raves?? Never heard any major issues in a mixing environment or at hi-fi level.
They made decent broadcast/dj players due to their massive torque, instant stop/start capabilities, and relatively low cost.
Decent? I think you mean industry standard, the only viable competitor were the Vestaks and even then what turntable do you think DJ's/Clubs/Bedroom DJ's used?
They made a reputation for themselves as 'good' players in this application but this reputation had nothing to do with sound quality, just functionality.
As already said, a updated tonearm and cartidge would solve this if OP still feels this way after they've changed amp or speakers.
The £1700 Clearaudio package was chosen because of the sort of money that the OP was talking about spending, ie it would be an appropriate choice for his budget which seems to be in the £3500-5000 area.
No problem with this if listening to vinyl is a favoured source.
A £400 Project or similar would be a comfortable up grade on what the OP currently has.
It might sound different or maybe even preferable to OP but to say its a comfortable upgrade is wrong imo.
In order.
Yes. Special supports were required to reduce feedback and 'disco' cartridges were not exactly renowned for their fidelity. This in not a hi-fi environment, different rules apply.
Why use a mixing cartridge when demoing a hi-fi product?
The broadcast industry ran on players by Russco, Gates, EMT, Telefunken among others. The SP10 was used but was considered too expensive in most cases.
Upgrading the tonearm might be an interesting project, but the OP is no expert in these matters.
Plenty of people out there can, its certainly a option.
I have, in my previous life performed umpteen demonstrations of decent, often of quite modest cost, hi-fi turntables against various 1200/1210 models. I can not recall any occasions where the hi-fi player was not preferred. As I said earlier, this is hi-fi not disco, different rules apply.
The law of averages would state someone, somewhere would prefer the 12/10's once, thats if you were using the same cartridge on the Technics as the others.
But aside from that my own experience has been the complete opposite, besides most budget decks have shady build quality and questionable longevity.
Throw in the fact that 12/10's are increasing in value its a win/win.
I did not and would not use a disco/mixing cartridge.
Glad to hear it, what did you mean about extra supports? You mean the standard feet?
If there are people who can swap arms on these players then fair enough, whether the OP has access to any is another matter.
Theres a couple of websites that offer these services, although P&P might be a bit painful.
If you had sat through any of the dems, then you would know why, law of averages did not come into play. (To be fair to you oldskool, I know I am asking you to take a lot of this on trust, in the old days I would have taken you into the dem room and demonstrated the veracity of what I say, 1 dem is worth a thousand posts and all that.)
I think its to do with alot on the subject of how people perceive sound differently. There has been tests where people prefered significantly cheaper equipment, or people can't tell the difference between low bitrate and flac etc.
Now if you were tell me everyone who came in was a highly experienced hi-fi nuts then maybe, but you're talking budget gear, so unlikely most would be hi-fi veterans.
I agree on the dem part despite fracturing this rule many times.
The quality of budget decks is indeed variable but do not take the deliberately lightweight build quality of the better performing models as being an issue, it is often a part of the design, to minimise microphony believe it or not.
Instresting but what about the motors on these budget models and how long is someone going to get out of a budget deck?
My 12/10s are gonna get buried with me, or burnt on a Viking longboat with a army of 6ft Valkyrie warriors as chief mourners.I haven't decided.............
As I explained, 1210s have an enviable reputation in their own sphere, nothing to do with hi-fi though.
I sensed it hurt you to type that last part For what its worth I agree, but I still think its a fine turntable.
Blacksabbath25 said:Joking aside we are all guilty of being fanboys of one particular product weather it’s rubbish or not as there is nothing wrong in that as long as you like it that’s all that matters . *smile*
davedotco said:Beppep said:Well, the disappointing part is the muddy bass and uninspiring mid-range. I can live with the highs, they are quite refined, not forward anyway. Problem is that drivers are not in control, and I believe is as well due to to the Ceramic constrution. Then there is the other part, the amplifier is a bottleneck, the DAC built in is not so good, streaming music from Yamaha can be decent for certain song, terrible for others when music become complex. Then of course Yamaha put bass everywhere, I need to constantly adjust treble (increase it) and reduce bass. Sound stage is ok,, but not so melodic and no dynamic, no attack. I dont think that speakers got damaged by amplifier.
Someone from an italian forum suggested me to hear the Cornwall and Heresy, wondering if these are not too big..listening video on yt seems they are quite arsh, but is just an impression.
Sorry to keep labouring this but your primary problem is your player.
The muddyness and poor midrange is a factor of the turntable setup. It is caused by microphony and a lack of stability.
Until you accept and address this, you will get nowhere.
Oldskool1976 said:davedotco said:No one has the faintest idea how to build a decent vinyl based playback system, I'll give you a clue.
It does not start with a mediocre disco style turntable and a two bob cartridge.
You mean the same 12/10's that was in production for nearly 40 years, a turntable so legendary that it has now become an icon.Not only one of the best built turntables ever made but freaking bulletproof as well, plus its likely to go on forever with proper servicing.
Even in its current state with a "2 bob cartridge" it still decimates any budget player I've ever heard.Plus as Lindsey stated, add a better tonearm/cartridge and you're taking things to the next level.
I also see you've recommended him to spend £1700 for a upgrade over a "medicore style disco turnatable".
In which case the £400 12/10's are pretty epic if he needs to spend £1700+ for it to be a upgrade.
Vladimir said:I just found this Stereophile review. Measurements indicate that these are very poorly designed speakers. Tweeter goes into breakup mode before 20kH and many other issues.
Vladimir said:Here's review of the Silver 8. That twitter is just nasty.
Blacksabbath25 said:What YAMAHA *biggrin* I do not no what you mean I’ve just got to iron my YAMAHA T-Shirts *smile*
gasolin said:Vladimir said:Here's review of the Silver 8. That twitter is just nasty.
Above 20khz, can it be heard?
Vladimir said:gasolin said:Vladimir said:Here's review of the Silver 8. That twitter is just nasty.
Above 20khz, can it be heard?
I won. We move on now.
Oldskool1976 said:Blacksabbath25 said:Joking aside we are all guilty of being fanboys of one particular product weather it’s rubbish or not as there is nothing wrong in that as long as you like it that’s all that matters . *smile*
Isn't it good though, to be able to talk and debate about what we love.
Having passion for good sound quality when most people use PC speakers as a main source is something we should celebrate!
Its what binds us all together and I wish more lurkers would post.I'd love to see the amount of hits this forums gets from lurkers.