New system, amp and speakers advices..again

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Vladimir

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Dec 26, 2013
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Blacksabbath25 said:
Joking aside we are all guilty of being fanboys of one particular product weather it’s rubbish or not as there is nothing wrong in that as long as you like it that’s all that matters . *smile*

Hear, hear.
 

Oldskool1976

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Nov 25, 2011
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davedotco said:
Oldskool1976 said:
davedotco said:
Oldskool1976 said:
davedotco said:
No one has the faintest idea how to build a decent vinyl based playback system, I'll give you a clue.

It does not start with a mediocre disco style turntable and a two bob cartridge.

You mean the same 12/10's that was in production for nearly 40 years, a turntable so legendary that it has now become an icon.Not only one of the best built turntables ever made but freaking bulletproof as well, plus its likely to go on forever with proper servicing.

Even in its current state with a "2 bob cartridge" it still decimates any budget player I've ever heard.Plus as Lindsey stated, add a better tonearm/cartridge and you're taking things to the next level.

I also see you've recommended him to spend £1700 for a upgrade over a "medicore style disco turnatable".

In which case the £400 12/10's are pretty epic if he needs to spend £1700+ for it to be a upgrade.

It is a direct descendant of the horrendously microphonic SL1200 and SL120 models of the 70s. The various 1210s never got rid of the microphony so have never provided a stable platform for any kind of hi-fi performance.

You think a turntable with microphonic problems would be used for decades at Clubs/Raves?? Never heard any major issues in a mixing environment or at hi-fi level.

They made decent broadcast/dj players due to their massive torque, instant stop/start capabilities, and relatively low cost.

Decent? I think you mean industry standard, the only viable competitor were the Vestaks and even then what turntable do you think DJ's/Clubs/Bedroom DJ's used?

They made a reputation for themselves as 'good' players in this application but this reputation had nothing to do with sound quality, just functionality.

As already said, a updated tonearm and cartidge would solve this if OP still feels this way after they've changed amp or speakers.

The £1700 Clearaudio package was chosen because of the sort of money that the OP was talking about spending, ie it would be an appropriate choice for his budget which seems to be in the £3500-5000 area.

No problem with this if listening to vinyl is a favoured source.

A £400 Project or similar would be a comfortable up grade on what the OP currently has.

It might sound different or maybe even preferable to OP but to say its a comfortable upgrade is wrong imo.

In order.

Yes. Special supports were required to reduce feedback and 'disco' cartridges were not exactly renowned for their fidelity. This in not a hi-fi environment, different rules apply.

Why use a mixing cartridge when demoing a hi-fi product?

The broadcast industry ran on players by Russco, Gates, EMT, Telefunken among others. The SP10 was used but was considered too expensive in most cases.

Upgrading the tonearm might be an interesting project, but the OP is no expert in these matters.

Plenty of people out there can, its certainly a option.

I have, in my previous life performed umpteen demonstrations of decent, often of quite modest cost, hi-fi turntables against various 1200/1210 models. I can not recall any occasions where the hi-fi player was not preferred. As I said earlier, this is hi-fi not disco, different rules apply.

The law of averages would state someone, somewhere would prefer the 12/10's once, thats if you were using the same cartridge on the Technics as the others.

But aside from that my own experience has been the complete opposite, besides most budget decks have shady build quality and questionable longevity.

Throw in the fact that 12/10's are increasing in value its a win/win.
 

Oldskool1976

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Nov 25, 2011
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Blacksabbath25 said:
Joking aside we are all guilty of being fanboys of one particular product weather it’s rubbish or not as there is nothing wrong in that as long as you like it that’s all that matters . *smile*

I'm hearing you on FM bud!!!
 

Blacksabbath25

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2015
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Did you watch them YouTube video’s of the in-depth testing on that Yamaha A-S1100 I posted the other day ? Because going by the diagrams he had the Yamaha A-S1100 is the same amplifier right though to the Yamaha A-S3000 expect it’s got the bigger power supply and extras but basically the same amplifier .
 

Vladimir

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Dec 26, 2013
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The motors and plinths of hifi TTs under 1K are as we all know complete garbage and are no match to the SL1200.

So is this microphony due to the tonearm alone?
 

Vladimir

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Dec 26, 2013
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Blacksabbath25 said:
Did you watch them YouTube video’s of the in-depth testing on that Yamaha A-S1100 I posted the other day ? Because going by the diagrams he had the Yamaha A-S1100 is the same amplifier right though to the Yamaha A-S3000 expect it’s got the bigger power supply and extras but basically the same amplifier .

I did and I've also noticed the similarities across the range. I think the 2100 is the sweetspot.
 

Blacksabbath25

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Sep 20, 2015
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How do they get the extra Watts on the A-S3000 compared to the A-S1100 when they are the same amplifier near abouts ? Is that about power supply ?

so to the OP for de-railing his post
 

Vladimir

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Dec 26, 2013
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Blacksabbath25 said:
How do they get the extra Watts on the A-S3000 compared to the A-S1100 when they are the same amplifier near abouts ? Is that about power supply ?

Yes. Slightly larger of everything in the PSU, transformer, caps, rectifiers. I doubt they needed to change the main transistors.
 

Blacksabbath25

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Sep 20, 2015
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Vladimir said:
Blacksabbath25 said:
How do they get the extra Watts on the A-S3000 compared to the A-S1100 when they are the same amplifier near abouts ? Is that about power supply ?

Yes. Slightly larger of everything in the PSU, transformer, caps, rectifiers. I doubt they needed to change the main transistors.
And everything tested accurate as well even the UVs read the right Watts being used and all parts have been brought in from Japan to make theses amplifiers . I was quite impressed by video 4
 

davedotco

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Apr 24, 2013
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Oldskool1976 said:
davedotco said:
Oldskool1976 said:
davedotco said:
Oldskool1976 said:
davedotco said:
No one has the faintest idea how to build a decent vinyl based playback system, I'll give you a clue.

It does not start with a mediocre disco style turntable and a two bob cartridge.

You mean the same 12/10's that was in production for nearly 40 years, a turntable so legendary that it has now become an icon.Not only one of the best built turntables ever made but freaking bulletproof as well, plus its likely to go on forever with proper servicing.

Even in its current state with a "2 bob cartridge" it still decimates any budget player I've ever heard.Plus as Lindsey stated, add a better tonearm/cartridge and you're taking things to the next level.

I also see you've recommended him to spend £1700 for a upgrade over a "medicore style disco turnatable".

In which case the £400 12/10's are pretty epic if he needs to spend £1700+ for it to be a upgrade.

It is a direct descendant of the horrendously microphonic SL1200 and SL120 models of the 70s. The various 1210s never got rid of the microphony so have never provided a stable platform for any kind of hi-fi performance.

You think a turntable with microphonic problems would be used for decades at Clubs/Raves?? Never heard any major issues in a mixing environment or at hi-fi level.

They made decent broadcast/dj players due to their massive torque, instant stop/start capabilities, and relatively low cost.

Decent? I think you mean industry standard, the only viable competitor were the Vestaks and even then what turntable do you think DJ's/Clubs/Bedroom DJ's used?

They made a reputation for themselves as 'good' players in this application but this reputation had nothing to do with sound quality, just functionality.

As already said, a updated tonearm and cartidge would solve this if OP still feels this way after they've changed amp or speakers.

The £1700 Clearaudio package was chosen because of the sort of money that the OP was talking about spending, ie it would be an appropriate choice for his budget which seems to be in the £3500-5000 area.

No problem with this if listening to vinyl is a favoured source.

A £400 Project or similar would be a comfortable up grade on what the OP currently has.

It might sound different or maybe even preferable to OP but to say its a comfortable upgrade is wrong imo.

In order.

Yes. Special supports were required to reduce feedback and 'disco' cartridges were not exactly renowned for their fidelity. This in not a hi-fi environment, different rules apply.

Why use a mixing cartridge when demoing a hi-fi product?

The broadcast industry ran on players by Russco, Gates, EMT, Telefunken among others. The SP10 was used but was considered too expensive in most cases.

Upgrading the tonearm might be an interesting project, but the OP is no expert in these matters.

Plenty of people out there can, its certainly a option.

I have, in my previous life performed umpteen demonstrations of decent, often of quite modest cost, hi-fi turntables against various 1200/1210 models. I can not recall any occasions where the hi-fi player was not preferred. As I said earlier, this is hi-fi not disco, different rules apply.

The law of averages would state someone, somewhere would prefer the 12/10's once, thats if you were using the same cartridge on the Technics as the others.

But aside from that my own experience has been the complete opposite, besides most budget decks have shady build quality and questionable longevity.

Throw in the fact that 12/10's are increasing in value its a win/win.

I did not and would not use a disco/mixing cartridge.

If there are people who can swap arms on these players then fair enough, whether the OP has access to any is another matter.

If you had sat through any of the dems, then you would know why, law of averages did not come into play. (To be fair to you oldskool, I know I am asking you to take a lot of this on trust, in the old days I would have taken you into the dem room and demonstrated the veracity of what I say, 1 dem is worth a thousand posts and all that.)

The quality of budget decks is indeed variable but do not take the deliberately lightweight build quality of the better performing models as being an issue, it is often a part of the design, to minimise microphony believe it or not.

As I explained, 1210s have an enviable reputation in their own sphere, nothing to do with hi-fi though.
 

Oldskool1976

New member
Nov 25, 2011
5
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0
davedotco said:
Oldskool1976 said:
davedotco said:
Oldskool1976 said:
davedotco said:
Oldskool1976 said:
davedotco said:
No one has the faintest idea how to build a decent vinyl based playback system, I'll give you a clue.

It does not start with a mediocre disco style turntable and a two bob cartridge.

You mean the same 12/10's that was in production for nearly 40 years, a turntable so legendary that it has now become an icon.Not only one of the best built turntables ever made but freaking bulletproof as well, plus its likely to go on forever with proper servicing.

Even in its current state with a "2 bob cartridge" it still decimates any budget player I've ever heard.Plus as Lindsey stated, add a better tonearm/cartridge and you're taking things to the next level.

I also see you've recommended him to spend £1700 for a upgrade over a "medicore style disco turnatable".

In which case the £400 12/10's are pretty epic if he needs to spend £1700+ for it to be a upgrade.

It is a direct descendant of the horrendously microphonic SL1200 and SL120 models of the 70s. The various 1210s never got rid of the microphony so have never provided a stable platform for any kind of hi-fi performance.

You think a turntable with microphonic problems would be used for decades at Clubs/Raves?? Never heard any major issues in a mixing environment or at hi-fi level.

They made decent broadcast/dj players due to their massive torque, instant stop/start capabilities, and relatively low cost.

Decent? I think you mean industry standard, the only viable competitor were the Vestaks and even then what turntable do you think DJ's/Clubs/Bedroom DJ's used?

They made a reputation for themselves as 'good' players in this application but this reputation had nothing to do with sound quality, just functionality.

As already said, a updated tonearm and cartidge would solve this if OP still feels this way after they've changed amp or speakers.

The £1700 Clearaudio package was chosen because of the sort of money that the OP was talking about spending, ie it would be an appropriate choice for his budget which seems to be in the £3500-5000 area.

No problem with this if listening to vinyl is a favoured source.

A £400 Project or similar would be a comfortable up grade on what the OP currently has.

It might sound different or maybe even preferable to OP but to say its a comfortable upgrade is wrong imo.

In order.

Yes. Special supports were required to reduce feedback and 'disco' cartridges were not exactly renowned for their fidelity. This in not a hi-fi environment, different rules apply.

Why use a mixing cartridge when demoing a hi-fi product?

The broadcast industry ran on players by Russco, Gates, EMT, Telefunken among others. The SP10 was used but was considered too expensive in most cases.

Upgrading the tonearm might be an interesting project, but the OP is no expert in these matters.

Plenty of people out there can, its certainly a option.

I have, in my previous life performed umpteen demonstrations of decent, often of quite modest cost, hi-fi turntables against various 1200/1210 models. I can not recall any occasions where the hi-fi player was not preferred. As I said earlier, this is hi-fi not disco, different rules apply.

The law of averages would state someone, somewhere would prefer the 12/10's once, thats if you were using the same cartridge on the Technics as the others.

But aside from that my own experience has been the complete opposite, besides most budget decks have shady build quality and questionable longevity.

Throw in the fact that 12/10's are increasing in value its a win/win.

I did not and would not use a disco/mixing cartridge.

Glad to hear it, what did you mean about extra supports? You mean the standard feet?

If there are people who can swap arms on these players then fair enough, whether the OP has access to any is another matter.

Theres a couple of websites that offer these services, although P&P might be a bit painful.

If you had sat through any of the dems, then you would know why, law of averages did not come into play. (To be fair to you oldskool, I know I am asking you to take a lot of this on trust, in the old days I would have taken you into the dem room and demonstrated the veracity of what I say, 1 dem is worth a thousand posts and all that.)

I think its to do with alot on the subject of how people perceive sound differently. There has been tests where people prefered significantly cheaper equipment, or people can't tell the difference between low bitrate and flac etc.
Now if you were tell me everyone who came in was a highly experienced hi-fi nuts then maybe, but you're talking budget gear, so unlikely most would be hi-fi veterans.
I agree on the dem part despite fracturing this rule many times.


The quality of budget decks is indeed variable but do not take the deliberately lightweight build quality of the better performing models as being an issue, it is often a part of the design, to minimise microphony believe it or not.

Instresting but what about the motors on these budget models and how long is someone going to get out of a budget deck?
My 12/10s are gonna get buried with me, or burnt on a Viking longboat with a army of 6ft Valkyrie warriors as chief mourners.I haven't decided.............


As I explained, 1210s have an enviable reputation in their own sphere, nothing to do with hi-fi though.

I sensed it hurt you to type that last part :) For what its worth I agree, but I still think its a fine turntable.
 

Oldskool1976

New member
Nov 25, 2011
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Blacksabbath25 said:
Joking aside we are all guilty of being fanboys of one particular product weather it’s rubbish or not as there is nothing wrong in that as long as you like it that’s all that matters . *smile*

Isn't it good though, to be able to talk and debate about what we love.

Having passion for good sound quality when most people use PC speakers as a main source is something we should celebrate!

Its what binds us all together and I wish more lurkers would post.
I'd love to see the amount of hits this forums gets from lurkers.
 

gasolin

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Mar 17, 2013
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davedotco said:
Beppep said:
Well, the disappointing part is the muddy bass and uninspiring mid-range. I can live with the highs, they are quite refined, not forward anyway. Problem is that drivers are not in control, and I believe is as well due to to the Ceramic constrution. Then there is the other part, the amplifier is a bottleneck, the DAC built in is not so good, streaming music from Yamaha can be decent for certain song, terrible for others when music become complex. Then of course Yamaha put bass everywhere, I need to constantly adjust treble (increase it) and reduce bass. Sound stage is ok,, but not so melodic and no dynamic, no attack. I dont think that speakers got damaged by amplifier.

Someone from an italian forum suggested me to hear the Cornwall and Heresy, wondering if these are not too big..listening video on yt seems they are quite arsh, but is just an impression.

Sorry to keep labouring this but your primary problem is your player.

The muddyness and poor midrange is a factor of the turntable setup. It is caused by microphony and a lack of stability.

Until you accept and address this, you will get nowhere.

What ? This is a professionell turntable for pa (wasn't made to be that, just turned out it was good for use in a pub,bar or somwehere else they play loud music without causing acoustic feedback....)
 

gasolin

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Mar 17, 2013
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Oldskool1976 said:
davedotco said:
No one has the faintest idea how to build a decent vinyl based playback system, I'll give you a clue.

It does not start with a mediocre disco style turntable and a two bob cartridge.

You mean the same 12/10's that was in production for nearly 40 years, a turntable so legendary that it has now become an icon.Not only one of the best built turntables ever made but freaking bulletproof as well, plus its likely to go on forever with proper servicing.

Even in its current state with a "2 bob cartridge" it still decimates any budget player I've ever heard.Plus as Lindsey stated, add a better tonearm/cartridge and you're taking things to the next level.

I also see you've recommended him to spend £1700 for a upgrade over a "medicore style disco turnatable".

In which case the £400 12/10's are pretty epic if he needs to spend £1700+ for it to be a upgrade.

+1
 

gasolin

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Mar 17, 2013
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Vladimir said:
I just found this Stereophile review. Measurements indicate that these are very poorly designed speakers. Tweeter goes into breakup mode before 20kH and many other issues.

That's the silver 6 op has the 8's

From the review

Summing up[/b]
When John Atkinson suggested that I review the Monitor Audio Silver RS6, I never expected the level of realism I ended up hearing from this loudspeaker. There's nothing much more I can say—the flawless and exceptional Silver RS6 gave me more listening pleasure than any other loudspeaker I have reviewed for Stereophile[/i]. In my more than 20 years of reviewing, I have not reviewed an audio component that produced greater sound quality per dollar than Monitor Audio's Silver RS6.
 

lindsayt

New member
Apr 8, 2011
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I've heard a 1200 /1210 with an OL modded Rega arm and £500 (new, less than that lightly used) Ortofon MC cartridge in a bake-off against an EMT 948. They were close. With the EMT being slightly better.

Both of them were better than my Linn LP12 with Lingo2, Ittok LVIII, Troika.

And I'd take any of those 3 over the boring Clearaudio.

It's bonkers spending £1700 on the Clearaudio, when for far less you can have a better sounding Japanese Direct drive, or British or Swiss idler.
 

gasolin

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Blacksabbath25 said:
What YAMAHA *biggrin* I do not no what you mean I’ve just got to iron my YAMAHA T-Shirts *smile*

you are iron man (imagine iron man being this link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNo3zmhXE9Y The joke faild couldn't change the url/link into iron man)
 

Beppep

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Nov 3, 2014
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Ok, had fun in the last 3 pages, very good points and classy touch of irony. Leaving the 1200 for a later upgrade, with the money I sell it back I can buy a Rega p3 or more second hand, I think I will go for listen some amplifiers on Saturday. Arcam a49 tried weeks ago and is not open for my point of view, nad more soundstage but look cheap Chinese products, Marantz Pm8600 colouring the high, lack of attack, Yamaha SL1100 same touch then mine, too much bass everywhere, Rotel 1592 quite open, little bright, decent dynamic..so considering that I don't know if I am going to change speakers right now, shall I start first with amplifier and take something that can work with different speakers or is not possible to get that? Or I look for combinations and try to get what I like?
 

davedotco

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Apr 24, 2013
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Oldskool1976 said:
Blacksabbath25 said:
Joking aside we are all guilty of being fanboys of one particular product weather it’s rubbish or not as there is nothing wrong in that as long as you like it that’s all that matters . *smile*

Isn't it good though, to be able to talk and debate about what we love.

Having passion for good sound quality when most people use PC speakers as a main source is something we should celebrate!

Its what binds us all together and I wish more lurkers would post.I'd love to see the amount of hits this forums gets from lurkers.

Thanks for taking my 'lecturing' in such good humour.

For a good part of the 80s and 90s I made my living selling hi-fi, most of it dedicated to playing vinyl. The performance that we were able to get off our LPs would leave many modern enthusiasts open mouthed in awe, sadly this level of performance is all to rare today.

Many of our systems were sold to 'non enthusiasts', by that I mean music lovers who had little interest in 'messing about' with their system, they just wanted to play the music. We sold by demonstration, invited anyone to bring in whatever they liked and we would set up a demonstration, whatever the level.

The kind of players that we sold routinely as an entry level, a Roksan/Rb300 for example is now so expensive that few people, few enthusiasts even, ever get to hear them. I get it, the world has moved on but the really good players, the Roksan TMS, the Oracle, the SME all brought a level of performance that is so far beyond what I hear passing for vinyl playback today that I find it quite disappointing.

Cost of course is a big issue today, high end vinyl playback is now such a niche market that prices are now sky high, the modern equivilent of my Koetsu cartridge is now pushing £4k, the SME Model 20 with arm is now over £12k, ridiculous pricing which is why I gave up on vinyl playback some 15 years back.

The problem is simply that having lived with such a standard, it is very difficult to adjust to anything less, so I chose not too.
 

Oldskool1976

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Nov 25, 2011
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Always happy to debate with someone about a subject I enjoy so much.
Also thanks for answering and fascinating to hear your experience on the wonderful source that is Vinyl.
Sounds like you had a pretty epic job, I know I'd be going to work with a smile on me face if I was gonna play with turntables.
Thankfully I still enjoy putting on records as alot of the stuff I have would be impossible to get on FLAC unless I ripped it myself and don't have the time or patience for that herculean task.
I see its not just old record players garnering value, some of prices for records are getting pretty insane, I may have to do some kind of archiving after all.
 

lindsayt

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Apr 8, 2011
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"really good players, the Roksan TMS, the Oracle, the SME"

I don't regard any of them as really good. The SME 20, for example is good for detail, not so good for dynamics. The Roksan is a variant of the LP12 in engineering and sound. The Oracle needs too much attention to keep it on song.

I'd rate all of them as worse than EMT 950 / 948 / 927 / 930. Pioneer Exclusive P3 / P3a. Sony PS-X9. Kenwood L-07D

And I'd rate them as no better than Sony 8750, Pioneer PL51, Kenwood KD 990.

And moving from a 1200 to a Rega P3 would be a downgrade, if you had the same arm and cart on both.
 

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