New system, amp and speakers advices..again

Page 2 - Seeking answers? Join the What HiFi community: the world's leading independent guide to buying and owning hi-fi and home entertainment products.

davedotco

New member
Apr 24, 2013
20
1
0
Vladimir said:
lindsayt said:
It's a porrted direct radiator system.

Well noted. I was just teasing with Hotel California.

It is horn loaded above 1250hz. A 2420 horn loaded compression driver covers everything above that frequency with a 2402, diffraction horn loaded tweeter augmenting the HF above 9000hz.
 

Beppep

New member
Nov 3, 2014
4
0
0
Being honest is the minimum, you are here asking for advices and welcome criticism, when you invest money you try to get the best value possible with a given budget.. I came here to share my experience,, reading review don't make you an expert and when you have finally bought what you though was a good system, you can get disappointed. I agree that my technics is a disco turntable, very expensive btw and it sounds worst the turntable I used to have in the 80s, however it is easy to sell it and never loose the price, actually the opposite. Problem about buying second hand speakers is to find model that are currently actual, you can get significant differences once they update the serie. I will move by steps, to be honest I am exhausted already, I will try to audiotion something on Saturday, make a plan, two retailers at least, but cannot buy listening YouTube video unfortunately. Talking about room size, seems that most of the advices here are for stand mount, three ways.
 

Vladimir

New member
Dec 26, 2013
220
6
0
I should have said compression drivers in the first place.

I'm thinking horny speakers because the MA 8s already are bright and the OP likes it. I don't think sweet ribbons will float his boat.
 

lindsayt

New member
Apr 8, 2011
16
2
0
davedotco said:
No one has the faintest idea how to build a decent vinyl based playback system, I'll give you a clue.

It does not start with a mediocre disco style turntable and a two bob cartridge.

Beppep. You despeately need to find a competent dealer, someone who knows a thing or two about vinyl playback.
The 1200 is a fine sounding turntable with the right arm and cartridge.

He needs to avoid dealers like the plague if he wants to address the main sonic shortcomings of his system for £3500.

None of my local dealers have a clue about world class vinyl playback on a reasonable budget. I doubt if the situation is any better where beppep lives.
 

jimmy1

New member
Nov 5, 2013
17
0
0
Get an amp first dont just buy whole new system, a better amp should control the speakers better, try borrow an amp from a friend or home demo from dealer
 

davedotco

New member
Apr 24, 2013
20
1
0
Beppep said:
Being honest is the minimum, you are here asking for advices and welcome criticism, when you invest money you try to get the best value possible with a given budget.. I came here to share my experience,, reading review don't make you an expert and when you have finally bought what you though was a good system, you can get disappointed. I agree that my technics is a disco turntable, very expensive btw and it sounds worst the turntable I used to have in the 80s, however it is easy to sell it and never loose the price, actually the opposite. Problem about buying second hand speakers is to find model that are currently actual, you can get significant differences once they update the serie. I will move by steps, to be honest I am exhausted already, I will try to audiotion something on Saturday, make a plan, two retailers at least, but cannot buy listening YouTube video unfortunately. Talking about room size, seems that most of the advices here are for stand mount, three ways.

Building a vinyl based playback system is very different, the player is absolutely pivotal.

Good players need to be able to achieve a lot, they need to be able to extract the music signal from the player in as accurate a manner as possible and, quite critically, isolate this signal from noise and vibration in the room, ie the sound of the music you are playing.

This is important, get this wrong and the sound is muddy, lacking in drive and any sense of punch or presence. This is why your system sounds the way it does.

Very few people have any idea about this these days, most dealers have no idea about vinyl playback, luckily for them their customers have none either. Yes there are a few dealers in England who know their stuff but they are quite rare, obviously I have no idea of what the situation is like where you are.

Whilst there is plenty of oportunity to 'tune' the system to your preferences a good player is essential, be prepared to pay a lot more for it than you expect, the better your amplifier and speakers become, the more they will show up the limitations of the player. You seem to be prepared to put some serious money into your system but you really need someone to show you what I have described so that you can hear the differences yourself.
 

Blacksabbath25

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2015
309
88
10,970
What other sources is the OP using besides the turntable ? Would a different amplifier make the MAs 8s sound any better apart from more control that a much more powerful amplifier will give .

could you save the MAs 8s so the OP didn’t have to get rid of them and use something like a Arcam A39 , Arcam A49 which normally is a good match And ones the OP was happy with the speakers then look at sorting out the turntable ?

the OPs flooring would coarse issues with early reflections if there is no rugs on the floor and how big is the OPs room for the MAs 8s ? How has the OP setup his MAs 8s in his room ?
 

gasolin

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2013
1,724
365
20,070
jimmy1 said:
Get an amp first dont just buy whole new system, a better amp should control the speakers better, try borrow an amp from a friend or home demo from dealer

Agree, the amp i just so the specs for are ratede pretty high and as low as 2 ohm, although rated at 2ohm it's just an amp for speakers like ma bronze, dali zensor and other reasonable priced speakers more than Ma silver 8's, they need a much better amp (the speakers havn't peaked in sound quality with a yamaha r-n500) they should easily be able to handle a 1000£ amp without being the weakest link and you need to do yourself a favour and try a better amp before you deside to get different speakers

Atleast then you couldn't say (if you get different speaker) i wonder how the silver 8's would sound with a better amp

It's not rock,it's the silver 6's,it's youtube, but still sounds pretty good, great bass https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubOIESK_SSY

Rock https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZ2zflo01fY
 

davedotco

New member
Apr 24, 2013
20
1
0
Vladimir said:
davedotco said:
Vladimir said:

What?

Untill he finds a vinyl setup guru, what else can be advised to build a system for classic rock lover with 38m2 room? Or should he put a stop till then?

You do not need a "guru", just someone compedent.

If that is not possible, than follow my advice in an earlier post. Buy the best 'plug and play' player you can afford, spending up to 40-50% of your system budget on turntable, arm and cartridge (and maybe phono stage and support too).

Use it to audition amps and speakers and choose what works best for you.

A good turntable setup will play rock, no problem but it needs to be good enough to be stable, not microphonic and have a decent cartridge, given the sort of funds being talked about, a Clearaudio Concept with Nano phono stage and a decent support as a minimum.
 

Vladimir

New member
Dec 26, 2013
220
6
0
Clearaudio Concept with Nano phono stage recommend by our resident guru DDC, as well as the WHF team (2017 award winner).

thumbs_up.png
 

lindsayt

New member
Apr 8, 2011
16
2
0
Beppep said:
...Problem about buying second hand speakers is to find model that are currently actual, you can get significant differences once they update the serie...
Do you think that the latest speakers sold by your local dealer sound any good?

Don't fall for the marketing hype.

Use your own ears and try to listen to as wide a variety of speakers as you can.
 

lindsayt

New member
Apr 8, 2011
16
2
0
Vladimir said:
Clearaudio Concept with Nano phono stage recommend by our resident guru DDC, as well as the WHF team (2017 award winner).
And put up with the boring boring sound of the Clearaudio when compared against the likes of a Garrard 401 or Sony PS-8750?
 

Vladimir

New member
Dec 26, 2013
220
6
0
lindsayt said:
Vladimir said:
Clearaudio Concept with Nano phono stage recommend by our resident guru DDC, as well as the WHF team (2017 award winner).
And put up with the boring boring sound of the Clearaudio when compared against the likes of a Garrard 401 or Sony PS-8750?

Wow that Sony is actually a looker. I'm digging it.

I'd pair that baby with some VFETs.
 

davedotco

New member
Apr 24, 2013
20
1
0
Vladimir said:
Clearaudio Concept with Nano phono stage recommend by our resident guru DDC, as well as the WHF team (2017 award winner).

I suggested this player from personal experience. I couple of years ago I took a friend to see an old friend who was a dealer specialising in vinyl playback, valves and the rest.

We set up a decent but not that expensive a system and started with the cheapest player available and moved up through the range. The least expensive player that we thought really made music was the Concept MC, then about £1700.

It has been a firm favourite ever since.
 

Blacksabbath25

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2015
309
88
10,970
I would of thought a pro- ject classic with a good cart would sound pretty good ? Paired with a good amplifier that has a good phono stage built in would do the job nicely .
 

Muddywaterstones

New member
Apr 21, 2016
5
0
0
I'm not sure they (ribbon tweeters) would be the solution either, certainly not without changing the rest of the system. If anything, the OP seems to think the MA are not bright enough (a Geddy Lee fan?). I don't know if I've ever seen this criticism thrown at them before.

There are also criticisms of muddy bass and uninspiring mid-range. MA certainly aren't for everyone but that doesn't sound right. It sounds like there is something more fundamentally wrong, especially as he hasn't seen significant improvements (ones worth paying for) while testing with other amps. Is there a possibility the speakers have become damaged whilst being underdriven by the Yamaha?

FWIW I'd keep the speakers (assuming they are in working order) and get an amp like Creek Evo 50/100 or Rega Elex-R/Elicit-R, plus a new turntable/cartridge etc if focussing on that as the source, though I haven't the foggiest in that area.
 

davedotco

New member
Apr 24, 2013
20
1
0
Blacksabbath25 said:
I would of thought a pro- ject classic with a good cart would sound pretty good ? Paired with a good amplifier that has a good phono stage built in would do the job nicely .

On paper but I have not tried it. With a decent cartridge it costs about the same as the Concept. The separate/suspended subchassis design might well be a plus though without having hands on, I have no idea how effective that is or how easy it is to setup.

Personally at this price I would want an MC cartridge and that probably means a separate phono stage, the Concept MC/nano is as close to plug and play as you can get and it will allow some tweeking once the user gets some experience.
 

Beppep

New member
Nov 3, 2014
4
0
0
Well, the disappointing part is the muddy bass and uninspiring mid-range. I can live with the highs, they are quite refined, not forward anyway. Problem is that drivers are not in control, and I believe is as well due to to the Ceramic constrution. Then there is the other part, the amplifier is a bottleneck, the DAC built in is not so good, streaming music from Yamaha can be decent for certain song, terrible for others when music become complex. Then of course Yamaha put bass everywhere, I need to constantly adjust treble (increase it) and reduce bass. Sound stage is ok,, but not so melodic and no dynamic, no attack. I dont think that speakers got damaged by amplifier.

Someone from an italian forum suggested me to hear the Cornwall and Heresy, wondering if these are not too big..listening video on yt seems they are quite arsh, but is just an impression.
 

davedotco

New member
Apr 24, 2013
20
1
0
Beppep said:
Well, the disappointing part is the muddy bass and uninspiring mid-range. I can live with the highs, they are quite refined, not forward anyway. Problem is that drivers are not in control, and I believe is as well due to to the Ceramic constrution. Then there is the other part, the amplifier is a bottleneck, the DAC built in is not so good, streaming music from Yamaha can be decent for certain song, terrible for others when music become complex. Then of course Yamaha put bass everywhere, I need to constantly adjust treble (increase it) and reduce bass. Sound stage is ok,, but not so melodic and no dynamic, no attack. I dont think that speakers got damaged by amplifier.

Someone from an italian forum suggested me to hear the Cornwall and Heresy, wondering if these are not too big..listening video on yt seems they are quite arsh, but is just an impression.

Sorry to keep labouring this but your primary problem is your player.

The muddyness and poor midrange is a factor of the turntable setup. It is caused by microphony and a lack of stability.

Until you accept and address this, you will get nowhere.
 

Vladimir

New member
Dec 26, 2013
220
6
0
If you find MA Silver 8 bass lacking, Klipsch will likely also give you the same issue.

PS Dave is giving you valuable info. In a vinyl based system the player is ALWAYS the bottleneck first to address. If you are serious about vynil playback that is. If you play vinyl 4h per week and have less than 50 records, then move on to changign the rubbish MAs. They do sound like you described them to me as well. Muddy, nasty, bright yet lacking clarity. They are the most yelped speaker brand here, especially by rock fans.
 

Beppep

New member
Nov 3, 2014
4
0
0
was talking about my system in general, playing digital source on Yamaha, turntable is another problem
 

TRENDING THREADS