New system, amp and speakers advices..again

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davedotco

New member
Apr 24, 2013
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Beppep said:
was talking about my system in general, playing digital source on Yamaha, turntable is another problem

You need to work out where the problems lie. Digital material can have quality issues too, there are a lot of recordings that I consider unplayable, they sound thick, congested, sometimes harsh. First step, try and evaluate your system using known good recordings. Are you using a CD player or streaming from something else?

The amp speakers are clearly something of a mismatch, just how bad that is depends on a number of things, recording quality and room positioning are where I would start.
 

lindsayt

New member
Apr 8, 2011
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davedotco said:
Vladimir said:
Clearaudio Concept with Nano phono stage recommend by our resident guru DDC, as well as the WHF team (2017 award winner).

I suggested this player from personal experience. I couple of years ago I took a friend to see an old friend who was a dealer specialising in vinyl playback, valves and the rest.

We set up a decent but not that expensive a system and started with the cheapest player available and moved up through the range. The least expensive player that we thought really made music was the Concept MC, then about £1700.

It has been a firm favourite ever since.
This goes to show why anyone getting seriously into vinyl should steer clear of dealers and buy 2nd hand instead.
 

Oldskool1976

New member
Nov 25, 2011
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Beppep said:
was talking about my system in general, playing digital source on Yamaha, turntable is another problem

Why not just buy the Naim which you were originally happy about and spend the leftover budget on the Naim Stageline. You've been through lots of speakers/amps judging by your other posts, so definate stick to what you like.
 

Oldskool1976

New member
Nov 25, 2011
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davedotco said:
No one has the faintest idea how to build a decent vinyl based playback system, I'll give you a clue.

It does not start with a mediocre disco style turntable and a two bob cartridge.

You mean the same 12/10's that was in production for nearly 40 years, a turntable so legendary that it has now become an icon.
Not only one of the best built turntables ever made but freaking bulletproof as well, plus its likely to go on forever with proper servicing.

Even in its current state with a "2 bob cartridge" it still decimates any budget player I've ever heard.
Plus as Lindsey stated, add a better tonearm/cartridge and you're taking things to the next level.

I also see you've recommended him to spend £1700 for a upgrade over a "medicore style disco turnatable".

In which case the £400 12/10's are pretty epic if he needs to spend £1700+ for it to be a upgrade.
 

Oldskool1976

New member
Nov 25, 2011
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Vladimir said:
If you find MA Silver 8 bass lacking, Klipsch will likely also give you the same issue.

PS Dave is giving you valuable info. In a vinyl based system the player is ALWAYS the bottleneck first to address. If you are serious about vynil playback that is. If you play vinyl 4h per week and have less than 50 records, then move on to changign the rubbish MAs. They do sound like you described them to me as well. Muddy, nasty, bright yet lacking clarity. They are the most yelped speaker brand here, especially by rock fans.

In a 12 x 13 heavily furnished room, my MA silver 6's are anything but bright, sure they have flaws no doubt but brightness isn't one of them. Besides my hearing is way to sensitive to accept anything bright, if you're ever in SE England let me know, you can hear them first hand!
 

Vladimir

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Dec 26, 2013
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Oldskool1976 said:
Vladimir said:
If you find MA Silver 8 bass lacking, Klipsch will likely also give you the same issue.

PS Dave is giving you valuable info. In a vinyl based system the player is ALWAYS the bottleneck first to address. If you are serious about vynil playback that is. If you play vinyl 4h per week and have less than 50 records, then move on to changign the rubbish MAs. They do sound like you described them to me as well. Muddy, nasty, bright yet lacking clarity. They are the most yelped speaker brand here, especially by rock fans.

In a 12 x 13 heavily furnished room, my MA silver 6's are anything but bright, sure they have flaws no doubt but brightness isn't one of them. Besides my hearing is way to sensitive to accept anything bright, if you're ever in SE England let me know, you can hear them first hand!

I've heard all Bronze and Silver MAs at a dealer room and didn't like any of them. Do you have the tweeters at ear level or listening off axis?
 

Oldskool1976

New member
Nov 25, 2011
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Tweeters are around ear levels if leaning back, and slightly below if sat upright.

Around six foot apart and I generally sit 7/8 foot away, speakers are around 2ft from back wall and bungs out.

Maybe I'm easy to please because I've loved my last 2 speakers (Mission M70/Dali Zensors) all bought blind, although the Zensors and Missions were in much smaller rooms.
 

Vladimir

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Dec 26, 2013
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I just found this Stereophile review. Measurements indicate that these are very poorly designed speakers. Tweeter goes into breakup mode before 20kH and many other issues.
 

Vladimir

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Dec 26, 2013
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Oldskool1976 said:
Tweeters are around ear levels if leaning back, and slightly below if sat upright.

They are 0.85m tall. I finally met an audiophile oompa loompa.
 

Oldskool1976

New member
Nov 25, 2011
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Vladimir said:
I just found this Stereophile review. Measurements indicate that these are very poorly designed speakers. Tweeter goes into breakup mode before 20kH and many other issues.

Isn't that the RS6 though?

Mine are the Silver 6.
 

Oldskool1976

New member
Nov 25, 2011
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Vladimir said:
Here's review of the Silver 8. That twitter is just nasty.

Not heard the Silver 8's tbf, that being said I'll rather trust my psycho-acoustic feedback from my ears over a spec sheet!
 

Vladimir

New member
Dec 26, 2013
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Oldskool1976 said:
Vladimir said:
Here's review of the Silver 8. That twitter is just nasty.

Not heard the Silver 8's tbf, that being said I'll rather trust my psycho-acoustic feedback from my ears over a spec sheet!

I heard different things than what you heard. I take my hearing and the specs sheet over your hearing and conflict of interests as an MA owner to toot your own system.

I win.
 

Oldskool1976

New member
Nov 25, 2011
5
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0
Vladimir said:
Oldskool1976 said:
Vladimir said:
Here's review of the Silver 8. That twitter is just nasty.

Not heard the Silver 8's tbf, that being said I'll rather trust my psycho-acoustic feedback from my ears over a spec sheet!

I heard different things than what you heard. I take my hearing and the specs sheet over your hearing and conflict of interests as an MA owner to toot your own system.

I win.

Yeah I'm tooting my system so hard that I don't even have my system specs on my profile.

Speaking of tooting, your love affair with JBL should be turned into a 10 year soap opera, you know like Dallas but without the class.

Grats on the win though, star prize is a date with a cloned version of
James Lansing, try not to blow your load too fast :)
 

davedotco

New member
Apr 24, 2013
20
1
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Oldskool1976 said:
davedotco said:
No one has the faintest idea how to build a decent vinyl based playback system, I'll give you a clue.

It does not start with a mediocre disco style turntable and a two bob cartridge.

You mean the same 12/10's that was in production for nearly 40 years, a turntable so legendary that it has now become an icon.Not only one of the best built turntables ever made but freaking bulletproof as well, plus its likely to go on forever with proper servicing.

Even in its current state with a "2 bob cartridge" it still decimates any budget player I've ever heard.Plus as Lindsey stated, add a better tonearm/cartridge and you're taking things to the next level.

I also see you've recommended him to spend £1700 for a upgrade over a "medicore style disco turnatable".

In which case the £400 12/10's are pretty epic if he needs to spend £1700+ for it to be a upgrade.

It is a direct descendant of the horrendously microphonic SL1200 and SL120 models of the 70s. The various 1210s never got rid of the microphony so have never provided a stable platform for any kind of hi-fi performance. They made decent broadcast/dj players due to their massive torque, instant stop/start capabilities, and relatively low cost.

They made a reputation for themselves as 'good' players in this application but this reputation had nothing to do with sound quality, just functionality.

The £1700 Clearaudio package was chosen because of the sort of money that the OP was talking about spending, ie it would be an appropriate choice for his budget which seems to be in the £3500-5000 area. A £400 Project or similar would be a comfortable up grade on what the OP currently has.
 

Vladimir

New member
Dec 26, 2013
220
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0
Oldskool1976 said:
Vladimir said:
Oldskool1976 said:
Vladimir said:
Here's review of the Silver 8. That twitter is just nasty.

Not heard the Silver 8's tbf, that being said I'll rather trust my psycho-acoustic feedback from my ears over a spec sheet!

I heard different things than what you heard. I take my hearing and the specs sheet over your hearing and conflict of interests as an MA owner to toot your own system.

I win.

Yeah I'm tooting my system so hard that I don't even have my system specs on my profile.

Speaking of tooting, your love affair with JBL should be turned into a 10 year soap opera, you know like Dallas but without the class.

Grats on the win though, star prize is a date with a cloned version ofJames Lansing, try not to blow your load too fast :)

You may from now on address me as "Your Excellency".
 

Oldskool1976

New member
Nov 25, 2011
5
0
0
davedotco said:
Oldskool1976 said:
davedotco said:
No one has the faintest idea how to build a decent vinyl based playback system, I'll give you a clue.

It does not start with a mediocre disco style turntable and a two bob cartridge.

You mean the same 12/10's that was in production for nearly 40 years, a turntable so legendary that it has now become an icon.Not only one of the best built turntables ever made but freaking bulletproof as well, plus its likely to go on forever with proper servicing.

Even in its current state with a "2 bob cartridge" it still decimates any budget player I've ever heard.Plus as Lindsey stated, add a better tonearm/cartridge and you're taking things to the next level.

I also see you've recommended him to spend £1700 for a upgrade over a "medicore style disco turnatable".

In which case the £400 12/10's are pretty epic if he needs to spend £1700+ for it to be a upgrade.

It is a direct descendant of the horrendously microphonic SL1200 and SL120 models of the 70s. The various 1210s never got rid of the microphony so have never provided a stable platform for any kind of hi-fi performance.

You think a turntable with microphonic problems would be used for decades at Clubs/Raves?? Never heard any major issues in a mixing environment or at hi-fi level.

They made decent broadcast/dj players due to their massive torque, instant stop/start capabilities, and relatively low cost.

Decent? I think you mean industry standard, the only viable competitor were the Vestaks and even then what turntable do you think DJ's/Clubs/Bedroom DJ's used?

They made a reputation for themselves as 'good' players in this application but this reputation had nothing to do with sound quality, just functionality.

As already said, a updated tonearm and cartidge would solve this if OP still feels this way after they've changed amp or speakers.

The £1700 Clearaudio package was chosen because of the sort of money that the OP was talking about spending, ie it would be an appropriate choice for his budget which seems to be in the £3500-5000 area.

No problem with this if listening to vinyl is a favoured source.

A £400 Project or similar would be a comfortable up grade on what the OP currently has.

It might sound different or maybe even preferable to OP but to say its a comfortable upgrade is wrong imo.
 

davedotco

New member
Apr 24, 2013
20
1
0
Oldskool1976 said:
davedotco said:
Oldskool1976 said:
davedotco said:
No one has the faintest idea how to build a decent vinyl based playback system, I'll give you a clue.

It does not start with a mediocre disco style turntable and a two bob cartridge.

You mean the same 12/10's that was in production for nearly 40 years, a turntable so legendary that it has now become an icon.Not only one of the best built turntables ever made but freaking bulletproof as well, plus its likely to go on forever with proper servicing.

Even in its current state with a "2 bob cartridge" it still decimates any budget player I've ever heard.Plus as Lindsey stated, add a better tonearm/cartridge and you're taking things to the next level.

I also see you've recommended him to spend £1700 for a upgrade over a "medicore style disco turnatable".

In which case the £400 12/10's are pretty epic if he needs to spend £1700+ for it to be a upgrade.

It is a direct descendant of the horrendously microphonic SL1200 and SL120 models of the 70s. The various 1210s never got rid of the microphony so have never provided a stable platform for any kind of hi-fi performance.

You think a turntable with microphonic problems would be used for decades at Clubs/Raves?? Never heard any major issues in a mixing environment or at hi-fi level.

They made decent broadcast/dj players due to their massive torque, instant stop/start capabilities, and relatively low cost.

Decent? I think you mean industry standard, the only viable competitor were the Vestaks and even then what turntable do you think DJ's/Clubs/Bedroom DJ's used?

They made a reputation for themselves as 'good' players in this application but this reputation had nothing to do with sound quality, just functionality.

As already said, a updated tonearm and cartidge would solve this if OP still feels this way after they've changed amp or speakers.

The £1700 Clearaudio package was chosen because of the sort of money that the OP was talking about spending, ie it would be an appropriate choice for his budget which seems to be in the £3500-5000 area.

No problem with this if listening to vinyl is a favoured source.

A £400 Project or similar would be a comfortable up grade on what the OP currently has.

It might sound different or maybe even preferable to OP but to say its a comfortable upgrade is wrong imo.

In order.

Yes. Special supports were required to reduce feedback and 'disco' cartridges were not exactly renowned for their fidelity. This in not a hi-fi environment, different rules apply.

The broadcast industry ran on players by Russco, Gates, EMT, Telefunken among others. The SP10 was used but was considered too expensive in most cases.

Upgrading the tonearm might be an interesting project, but the OP is no expert in these matters.

I have, in my previous life performed umpteen demonstrations of decent, often of quite modest cost, hi-fi turntables against various 1200/1210 models. I can not recall any occasions where the hi-fi player was not preferred. As I said earlier, this is hi-fi not disco, different rules apply.
 

Blacksabbath25

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2015
309
88
10,970
Joking aside we are all guilty of being fanboys of one particular product weather it’s rubbish or not as there is nothing wrong in that as long as you like it that’s all that matters . *smile*
 

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